The Richman and Lazarus a parable

[carl11]

It has often been said that this is a parable while yet others contend and say it is not a parable.

So with that in mind lets look at a few examples on how this is clearly a parable.

1) It starts out by saying "There was a certain..." we have a few examples of this same phrase and with this phrase all of them are parables. [Mt. 21:33, Lk 7:41]

2) Lazarus was poor and yet he was physically poor but the fact was that he was Spiritually poor and that can coincide with that of Mt. 5

3) A drop of water on the tongue. This idea can be liked unto the idea of a car that has just overheated and the radiator is dry and yet some how a drop of water is going to cool the car off or likewise being such dire torment and burning a drop of water is going to satisfy.

4) There are no verses showing that the unsaved once they die they will ever have eternal life. This idea is shown as one being born again as depicted in Jn. 3.

5) There is a great gulf / chasm between them and there is darkness and considering heaven is in the 3rd heaven and we assume that hell is down below and so how could one possible see that far from such a distance.

6) The idea of torment and suffering in fire has caused great confusing and yet I can see why. But the one thing that is a common thread throughout the Bible is that Christ spoke in parables. So with that in mind fire has to do with that of judgement and the idea of suffering and being tormented in a fire is a picture showing what it is like to be cut off from the glory of God and his kingdom. This idea of reading as it literally stands would be using the same idea as in Mrk. 16 as to picking up serpents and getting bit and not dying or drinking cyanided and expecting to live.

All in all there is no doubt that this accoun

 

[Dino246]

This is the only "parable-like illustration" in which a proper name is used.

The degree of detail shared is unusual; most parables are illustrations using analogues familiar to Jesus' hearers. This is a description of torment, which the hearers would not have known firsthand.

These suggest that it is not a parable.

 

[Radius]

Yup Dino is right. This is the only parable Jesus used with real actual names which leads many to believe this was a real account.

 

[carl11]

This is the only "parable-like illustration" in which a proper name is used.

The degree of detail shared is unusual; most parables are illustrations using analogues familiar to Jesus' hearers. This is a description of torment, which the hearers would not have known firsthand.

These suggest that it is not a parable.

Where do you find in the Bible that the unsaved will have eternal life and yet I understand where you are coming from.

 

[posthuman]

Where do you find in the Bible that the unsaved will have eternal life and yet I understand where you are coming from.

is the rich man existing in hades in torment what God describes as 'eternal life' ?

it seems like you're calling that 'eternal life'

is that what God calls "life" ?
are existence and life the same thing ?

 

[Adstar]

Revelation 20

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The false prophet will be a man and here we see that after the 1000 years he is still in the lake of fire being tormented.. The beast and the false prophet where cast into the lake of fire 1000 years before satan is..


Revelation 19
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[garee]

This is the only "parable-like illustration" in which a proper name is used.

The degree of detail shared is unusual; most parables are illustrations using analogues familiar to Jesus' hearers. This is a description of torment, which the hearers would not have known firsthand.

These suggest that it is not a parable.

Proper names are used in all historically true parables. like the Exodus account a picture of the gospel as the rest receive when we do not harden our hearts as informed in Hebrews 4 our daily rest we receive when again we do not harden our hearts in unbelief (no faith) , as long as today is today . Or the creation in respect to the same rest, historically true while still used as a parable.

This can be seen in the two different rendering of the ten commandments using two different reasons for keeping the ceremonial rest which points to the rest we will receive in our new incorruptible bodies .

Exodus 20 :11 for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it.

Deuteronomy 5:15 and thou hast remembered that a servant thou hast been in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God is bringing thee out thence by a strong hand, and by a stretched-out arm; therefore hath Jehovah thy God commanded thee to keep the day of the sabbath. Deuteronomy 5:15

Different reasonings used as parables both working together as one work of faith. I think we could say as the spiritual word spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2 , spiritual things comparing to things seen the temporal. Called the hidden mana in the book of Revelation.

Note.... (purple in parenthesis) my personal comments or private interpretation.

And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,(those hidden in parables) which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual (the eternal not seen) things spiritual things comparing,and the natural man (the temporal )doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;1 Corinthians2:12-14

Parables hide the spiritual meaning from natural man but he reveals them to his born gain children . The Holy Spirit not seen uses the temporal things of this world to give us a spiritual unseen understanding in respect the unseen eternal .

We should not fear searching as for silver or gold or pearls of great price for the gospel hid in parables. Even if the literal makes sense like the Exodus account as a historically parable.

2 Corinthians 4: 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Again hiding the spiritual unseen understanding in parables as the signified language of God.

Some would say parables are earthly stories with a heavenly meaning . Real stories with real spiritual meaning . Without parables to include the one with Lazarus... Christ spoke not . We should look for the gospel hid in that way.

Men that are dead cannot suffer by thirsting , they have no literal tongue our living will . When they die their temporal spirits returns to the father who corrupted the spirit of mankind in the garden . Those not in the bosom of Abraham, the presence of God not seen, their blood and flesh returns to the dust from where it was taken from. They will not rise to new spirit life on the last day .

Even if Abraham could send one form the dead like the poor man they would not believe seeing they do not believe the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

The idea that Lazarus is still breathing underground simply promotes necromancy, a Catholic foundation.... seeking after the dead for the living .

Luke 16:30-31 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[carl11]

is the rich man existing in hades in torment what God describes as 'eternal life' ?

it seems like you're calling that 'eternal life'

is that what God calls "life" ?
are existence and life the same thing ?

The true believers will have eternal life. Once the unsaved have died they cease to have life.

 

[UnderGrace]

It has often been said that this is a parable while yet others contend and say it is not a parable.

So with that in mind lets look at a few examples on how this is clearly a parable.

1) It starts out by saying "There was a certain..." we have a few examples of this same phrase and with this phrase all of them are parables. [Mt. 21:33, Lk 7:41]

2) Lazarus was poor and yet he was physically poor but the fact was that he was Spiritually poor and that can coincide with that of Mt. 5

3) A drop of water on the tongue. This idea can be liked unto the idea of a car that has just overheated and the radiator is dry and yet some how a drop of water is going to cool the car off or likewise being such dire torment and burning a drop of water is going to satisfy.

4) There are no verses showing that the unsaved once they die they will ever have eternal life. This idea is shown as one being born again as depicted in Jn. 3.

5) There is a great gulf / chasm between them and there is darkness and considering heaven is in the 3rd heaven and we assume that hell is down below and so how could one possible see that far from such a distance.

6) The idea of torment and suffering in fire has caused great confusing and yet I can see why. But the one thing that is a common thread throughout the Bible is that Christ spoke in parables. So with that in mind fire has to do with that of judgement and the idea of suffering and being tormented in a fire is a picture showing what it is like to be cut off from the glory of God and his kingdom. This idea of reading as it literally stands would be using the same idea as in Mrk. 16 as to picking up serpents and getting bit and not dying or drinking cyanided and expecting to live.

All in all there is no doubt that this accoun

I think it is fictional but not a parable. Agree a "drop of water to cool the tongue" otherwise makes no sense.

 

[Radius]

I think it is fictional but not a parable. Agree a "drop of water to cool the tongue" otherwise makes no sense.

I think you two are missing the point on the "drop of water" thing. The rich man knew his state. He knew that water was not given or found in hades. So, just like on earth I presume, he tried to bargain his way for just a drop. Although it wouldn't satisfy, the sheer relief one drop would bring would indeed satisfy a burning soul's tongue. Better than nothing!

 

[Nehemiah6]

So with that in mind lets look at a few examples on how this is clearly a parable.

No it is NOT a parable. Parables have been rightly called earthly stories with heavenly meanings. But this does not fit that description, and does not *represent* something else. It is a revelation of the afterlife by none other than Christ, and is there as a warning to sinners that there are no second chances after death.

 

[UnderGrace]

I think you two are missing the point on the "drop of water" thing. The rich man knew his state. He knew that water was not given or found in hades. So, just like on earth I presume, he tried to bargain his way for just a drop. Although it wouldn't satisfy, the sheer relief one drop would bring would indeed satisfy a burning soul's tongue. Better than nothing!

The larger teaching of this story/parable is the deaths of both the rich man (who represented the Jews) and Lazarus (who represented the Gentile nations) are symbolic. Their demise depicts an elemental change in the status and position of the two groups.
It is not about heaven and hell.

Rather as Jesus so frequently did He was pointing to the coming anguish of the Jewish nation for their betrayal of Him.

 

[UnderGrace]

The true believers will have eternal life. Once the unsaved have died they cease to have life.

One cannot draw that conclusion either, it is not about saved and unsaved,

 

[gb9]

in chapter 4 of Mark's Gospel, Mark stated that Jesus only spoke to the people in parables.

 

[posthuman]

The true believers will have eternal life. Once the unsaved have died they cease to have life.

yes but
what does God call 'having life'?

by His definition did the rich man in hades have 'life'?

 

[UnderGrace]

No it is NOT a parable. Parables have been rightly called earthly stories with heavenly meanings. But this does not fit that description, and does not *represent* something else. It is a revelation of the afterlife by none other than Christ, and is there as a warning to sinners that there are no second chances after death.

So those being tortured can talk to those not being tortured?

The great gulf is unbelief.

I bet the scribes and Pharisees understood what he was saying and did not like it.

 

[Dino246]

Where do you find in the Bible that the unsaved will have eternal life and yet I understand where you are coming from.

I didn't claim that "the unsaved have eternal life".

 

[Dino246]

Proper names are used in all historically true parables. like the Exodus account a picture of the gospel as the rest receive when we do not harden our hearts as informed in Hebrews 4 our daily rest we receive when again we do not harden our hearts in unbelief (no faith) , as long as today is today . Or the creation in respect to the same rest, historically true while still used as a parable.

A parable is "A simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels." (Oxford dictionary)

A parable is not the retelling of a historical event. There is no such thing as a "historically true parable".

 

[carl11]

yes but
what does God call 'having life'?

by His definition did the rich man in hades have 'life'?

No the Richman did not have life. Maybe to put it this way he was not born again.

 

[PennEd]

To ascribe Scripture as an allegory, when there is no mention of the accounts being a parable or allegory, whether in OT or NT IS UNBELIEF.


yes only 8 souls survived on a floating barge.

Yes the Angel of death killed all 1st born who did not have Lamb's blood on their doorposts.

Yes huge walls fell by people walking around them and then shouting.

Yes Samson killed a thousand philistines with the jaw bone of an ass.

Yes a donkey really spoke. (and not Shrek!)

Yes a great fish swallowed Jonah and vomited him onto shore 3 days later.......



Yes the Son of God became man, died, and was raised to life.

Jesus does not say it's a parable. It is in no way structured as one. And is not meant to be one.

It amazes me why believers have such hard time believing Scripture. Just because parts make us uncomfortable, isn't a valid reason to dismiss.