The Sin of Pacifism

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Deadtosin said:
Turn the other cheek was not a reference to an eye for an eye. You state things like you are so sure and you are so surely wrong. "If a man strike you on the right cheek turn your left cheek as well." A right handed person would strike you on your left cheek. Jesus is referring to a backhand or the use of the "dirty" left hand, both of which are insults. Nothing at all like eye for an eye tooth for a tooth justice.
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Exactly. The old testament has several references about overlooking insults and not trading insult for insults. What most pacifists don't know is that all teachings of restraint in the new testament have their root in the old testament. Loving your enemy is an old testament concept.

Thus, Christ was not telling us there was a change in the law, but rather pointing us back to the law. He was not contrasting old testament principles with new testament principles, he was contrasting tradition with God's word word which the jews at that time had strayed from.
 
dcontroversal said:
Really...well two things wrong...God does not lead someone to sin and TIME and CHANCE happen unto all according to SOLOMON....

So...????????
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Excellent! Aside from not seeing the tongue-in-cheek, your conclusions are spot on. The only thing I can think is, SO, you need to work on your sense of literary irony and the painfully ridiculous, your sense of humor? LOL!
 
JesusIsAll said:
Excellent! Aside from not seeing the tongue-in-cheek, your conclusions are spot on. The only thing I can think is, SO, you need to work on your sense of literary irony and the painfully ridiculous, your sense of humor? LOL!
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Yeah..hahah you see the question marks...I have seen a few posts of yours and I was like.......surely he isn't serious HA funny......
 
dcontroversal said:
Well...we all are to some extent....well MAYBE! HAH!
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Well, that's okay, then. But I'm putting you on notice. I don't take to heart all those holier than me, or the generically holier than thou, but I do draw the line with anybody claiming they are certifiably more certifiable, at which point you better have scripture proof! (Please, anybody seeing an allegory in "Jesus wept," please keep it to yourself...)
 
gzusfrk said:
Sounds great but it doesnt work like that.,. Or should I say how are you cutting off the head of the snake within your area, Its like your saying ..I'll preach to everyone and there will be no more evil.
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Paul says the weapons of our warefare are not carnal. Paul talks about fighting spiritually by putting on the whole armor of God. Why don't you believe him?
 
Jason0047 said:
Paul says the weapons of our warefare are not carnal. Paul talks about fighting spiritually by putting on the whole armor of God. Why don't you believe him?
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I do believe him, he is talking about stealing and lying,murder,etc, desires of the flesh. Your talking like lightning bolts are going to hit those evil doers, that are killing and raping.
 
gzusfrk said:
I do believe him, he is talking about stealing and lying,murder,etc, desires of the flesh. Your talking like lightning bolts are going to hit those evil doers, that are killing and raping.
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Your not looking at the bigger picture. Let's say you lived back in the New Testament times and your family was attacked by Saul (Paul) and you desired to take him down. Would you be doing God's will for stopping this man because he was bad? See, that is what you don't understand. Each potential person you see as an enemy or a threat could be someone you could lead to the Lord. But hey. Let's not think about that.
 
gzusfrk said:
I do believe him, he is talking about stealing and lying,murder,etc, desires of the flesh. Your talking like lightning bolts are going to hit those evil doers, that are killing and raping.
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Keep reading on into the end of the chapter and on into the next one. You will see that Paul's focus is preaching the gospel. Also, in Ephesians 6 Paul says we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principilaties and spiritual wickedness in high places (Ephesians 6:12). For we are to put on the whole armor of God in order to stand against who? Bad people in your area? No. To stand against wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11). As a part of this armor, we are to have our feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace (i.e. to preach the gospel).
 
Rachel20 said:
To have issues with pacifism is one thing.
To call it doctrine of demons and a sin is another.


I haven't had the entire time to read all the posts in this thread except the OP, but I am sure it degenerated into self defense and a guns issue long back.

Pacifism at the heart of it is opposition to war and violence. Not stand and do nothing because angels will save you. ( I am sure God can even make that happen if He wants)

And why?

I strongly am for all non violent means and dialogue. The reason being, I believe that every human being deserves a chance at life and we are nobody to take away anyone's life.

Crime should be dealt with in court and justice delivered in a proper manner.

Yes, in extreme situations, to protect one's family I can understand the use of any tool or implement to save somebody. It's not wrong.
However the taking of someone's life is a final resort and the most abhorrent thing ever.

In today's bloodthirsty world, where people mercilessly kill each other and don't think twice about turning a gun on one another, do I think pacifism or encouraging non violence solely for the sake of compassion a sin?

It's too ridiculous to even delve into. You're just baiting one man here about his views.

I believe that one man's death was enough for the whole world. That was Jesus Christ. I'd rather give people a shot at life than a shot that causes death.
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Hi Rachel, thanks for the thoughtful response, and I'll try to respond thoughtfully. The OP I posted was in response to some things Jason had said, and he takes his view a bit further than you. But I'm not sure you are I are in all that much disagreement. I certainly believe there are non-violent solutions that should be used whenever they are effective. I certainly believe that our battle is a spiritual one and will not be won with material weapons.

But you yourself said, we live in a "bloodthirsty world" where people don't think twice about killing, and that's the realization behind even Christ's command to arm ourselves. Self-defense and defending others with violence when necessary is a loving act. It's good and biblical. Look at what Abraham did to rescue his nephew Lot! Wouldn't you want an uncle like that?

Conversely, if there is a time you can help your neighbor using violence toward an enemy (assuming you are able, both physical and emotionally, which not everyone is), and you choose not to, you have hated your brother. Now I'm not saying it's a mortal sin. Christ died for us, and even a sin like this is covered by the Cross. But let's be honest and call it what it is. There are instances when pacifism is downright evil.

Yes, the battle is spiritual, and many saints are engaged in this spiritual battle. Thus if you save the life of one of these individuals (through violence if necessary), they'll be able to continue battling spiritually. How is letting them die advancing the spiritual battle?

Hope that clarifies my view even further.
 
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See, nothing happens by random chance or accident. Even Jesus' appointed time happened precisely on time as it was supposed to and not a second or minute before that time. For Jesus said,

Mark 14:49 NLT
"Why didn't you arrest me in the Temple? I was there among you teaching every day. But these things are happening to fulfill what the Scriptures say about me."
 
Calminian said:
Hi Rachel, thanks for the thoughtful response, and I'll try to respond thoughtfully. The OP I posted was in response to some things Jason had said, and he takes his view a bit further than you. But I'm not sure you are I are in all that much disagreement. I certainly believe there are non-violent solutions that should be used whenever they are effective. I certainly believe that our battle is a spiritual one and will not be won with material weapons.
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But your teaching goes against that, though. Teaching a believer to trust in a gun and in their own fists is not going to lead you to a non-violent solution.

But you yourself said, we live in a "bloodthirsty world" where people don't think twice about killing, and that's the realization behind even Christ's command to arm ourselves. Self-defense and defending others with violence when necessary is a loving act. It's good and biblical. Look at what Abraham did to rescue his nephew Lot! Wouldn't you want an uncle like that?
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One verse-ism is a dangerous type of a Theology. Nowhere does Scripture confirm that this was the case. On the contrary, Jesus rebuked Peter for taking up his sword. God is not the author of confusion. He is not going to tell you to buy a sword and then tell you to not use it (Unless that was His point was to get you to understand that he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword). Jesus was allso speaking in spiritual terms; He was talking about the spiritual sword, which is the written Word of God (Which is far more effective).

Conversely, if there is a time you can help your neighbor using violence toward an enemy (assuming you are able, both physical and emotionally, which not everyone is), and you choose not to, you have hated your brother. Now I'm not saying it's a mortal sin. Christ died for us, and even a sin like this is covered by the Cross. But let's be honest and call it what it is. There are instances when pacifism is downright evil.

Yes, the battle is spiritual, and many saints are engaged in this spiritual battle. Thus if you save the life of one of these individuals (through violence if necessary), they'll be able to continue battling spiritually. How is letting them die advancing the spiritual battle?

Hope that clarifies my view even further.
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Wordly pacicifism can be evil but not Godly pacificism. There is a difference between the two. Praying and preaching the gospel and fighting spiritually is the true battle that the New Testament desires us to focus on. It is not a physical battle where we kill our enemies. You need to provide and show more examples in the New Testament that approves of believers showing that God desires them to fight physically. One verse is not going to cut it. Especially when that verse is refuted with Jesus rebuking Peter for using his sword.
 
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Originally Posted by seed_time_harvest
I understand and agree with defending someone elses life for you would not know if they lived that you might have a chance to minister to them before their appointed time,but be sure that you are not defending yourself because you fear physical death more than going to be with the lord.


tourist said:
If someone threatens those that I care about I will certainly defend them with appropriate use of force.
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I agree but what about the part of my statement about defending yourself?
 
I agree but what about the part of my statement about defending yourself?[/QUOTE]


I have a wife and kids I am supposed to support and raise. If i don't defend myself then they don't have me.
 
I am actually surprised by the number of Christians at least on here who would not try to defend someone else from physical harm.

That shows real love from the Christian community.
 
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