The sin of refusing sex
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I have to agree, Kayla. I'm hoping she will come back and elaborate.
The way the post was copied, it's not letting me quote it properly, but here is what @Elyse78 wrote (written as it is posted in post #360):
"my husband has full control and can take me any time he wants me and I do not ever say no. It makes our relationship so good. Morning noon or night he can have me however he wants. It is an incredible sex life. Better than before I decided to repent and fully submit."
I can certainly understand why this post got a "like" and a "winner" emoji from two men. But these questions immediately popped up in my head:
1. She NEVER says no? What kind of superwoman exists that is never tired, never sick, never has to take care of things around the house or for work (or kids, if they have them)? Or at least can still agree to having sex any way her husband wants while going through any or all of these things?
2. And since that can of worms has been opened -- does this also mean a woman should TRULY never say no, even while she's having her monthly cycle, suffering from cramps, or has restrictions because of pregnancy and childbirth?
3. If a woman lets her husband do whatever he wants, this is assuming that all of his desires are pure and of the Lord, and none of them are crossing lines into things that are presented in movies, magazines, TV -- basically everything all around us. For example, society is trying very hard to play off BDSM and rape fantasies as something natural and normal that everyone does. Now if a woman has a husband with COMPLETELY pure sex thoughts, all the more power to her!
However, I am wondering how many couples today have been 100% completely agreeable to their spouses requests 100% of the time.
And I am certainly NOT trying to pin this all on the men (50 Shades of Grey, anyone?) It could just as easily be the woman, but since the post was written by a woman describing her response to her husband, I am also writing my own reply from a woman's point of view.
@Elyse78 -- I do hope you come back and elaborate a bit more without being too personal, because you wrote a very interesting post. Definitely stands out, for sure, and I would really like to hear your thoughts regarding my questions above.
I'm just concerned that without some explanation or background, the ideas this post presents are much too unrealistic for people to strive for or expect. (Such as, giving men the idea that women should TRULY never say no to any time or any thing, and making women think that absolutely never saying no, under any circumstance, is her duty to keeping her husband happy.)
What are your thoughts?
K
kaylagrl
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Yes, I would agree with your assessment sis. When I'm speaking of refusing sex, as several pages back I made comments, I'm talking about either partner continually making excuses to not have sex. Certainly no one is able to be ready to go every single time. It's almost laughable. People can have legitimate sicknesses, which a doctor could help with. While no one should be continually denying their partner, or using sex as a weapon, nor should the reverse be true. Certainly there are exceptions. My mother suffered cancer last year and went through chemo/radiation. At her last visit her doctor told her the radiation was just beginning to dissipate from her body. So there is balance in everything and I don't think it takes an overly intelligent person to know the difference frankly.
Secondly, sex is about the two becoming one. Gents who liked her post, you'd agree this is about two people being satisfied correct? Not just your own needs? Amen?! You want a returning customer you better give them a reason to keep coming back, correct?!
Thirdly this isn't about submission for one person. This is about meeting the other persons needs and them meeting yours. That is what makes a marriage, in the bedroom and outside it. This isn't about selfish desires, this is about showing love for one another. So let's not skitter this convo off the tarmac and into the ditch k? A little common sense goes a long way.
Physical union needs to be part of the spiritual union. Are we focusing just on the body?
Communication is key. What feels like rejection may be something else.
Discussion on the topic after marriage is important as plans before the wedding are often based on little experience
Communication is key. What feels like rejection may be something else.
Discussion on the topic after marriage is important as plans before the wedding are often based on little experience
In fact, most people are not aware of this problem, emotional problems, divorce, separation of lovers, which will cause a fall.
Scripture says When one falls, all fall.
Sex is originally used for procreation. This was a lesson God gave Adam and Eve, and it was also for us，a class about life and love.
lust is empty,Because left this class.
A poor student can only make up lessons constantly.Then the whole class was affected and the academic performance dropped.
Pray to stop The fall,don't make it dirty dancing again.
Scripture says When one falls, all fall.
Sex is originally used for procreation. This was a lesson God gave Adam and Eve, and it was also for us，a class about life and love.
lust is empty,Because left this class.
A poor student can only make up lessons constantly.Then the whole class was affected and the academic performance dropped.
Pray to stop The fall,don't make it dirty dancing again.
If she told him, "I'm sick", or "I'm having my....." whatever it is, and he doesn't pursue further that is not 'no.'
So do you think most men on a forum like this, if their wives never said 'no' would break out the whips and chains and use them on their wives? Do you think all married Christian men are suppressed sado-massachists and their wives are the only thing restraining them?
K
kaylagrl
Guest
I was responding to Seoulsearch's post. I apologize if that was not clear. I hit quote, and the quote contained your name without imbedding quotes.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Not a problem. I'll let her speak for herself, but I'm quite confident that is not what she meant.
Of course not.
I know, however, that I have had online conversations (nothing sexually induced, just general conversation) with more than one single Christian guy who has said he is afraid to marry Christian women because he is afraid that a Christian woman would not indulge the curiosities he's picked up from "other sources."
Does that automatically mean sado-masochism? No. The things I'm talking about are what men have seen in strip clubs or on the pages of porn (which may or may not include the things you're describing,) and then wanting to re-enact them.
Now, am I saying that this always has to involve whips and chains?
Of course not. But I do think that a woman claiming that she never says no to her husband's requests "morning, noon, and night" and that he can "have me any way he wants me" sends a very skewed message as to what is to be realistically expected.
If I remember correctly (and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong,) how long have you been married, Presidente?
I'm not sure what things were like when you were single -- if they were much different -- or if you spend a lot of time talking to Christian singles.
I am by no means any kind of expert, but I know a lot of Christian singles have been heavily influenced by pornography in many different forms, and it shapes their ideas and expectations of what can be carried out in marriage.
For instance, presenting your spouse with a "rape enactment" role play or acting like a young, underage girl -- I don't know what Christian counseling would say about that, but I do know that if one spouse is against it, it can't be seen as mutual, and these are just a sliver of what some singles are exposed to, whether willingly (curiosity) or not (abuse.) And it carries over to marriage.
Now, am I saying that all Christian husbands are closet BSDM'ers who insist on keeping their wives in torture dungeons?
Again, of course not. But I WOULD bet you that a good number of couples have sexual difficulties in which a spouse is asking for things the other is uncomfortable with (whether in frequency or method), and it's creating a problem.
What I AM trying to say here is that I have spoken to a lot of married people who are unhappy with their personal lives for one reason or the other, often because of unrealistic expectations from both sides, or because one spouse is refusing what the other one wants to do. And I've also spoken with a lot of singles who don't know what or how much to expect if they do get married.
What kind of effect does this have on people when they read about a woman who seems agreeable to any and every situation, under any circumstance?
The original post I am responding to was a woman who said she always said yes to her husband, no matter what he wanted. And if that's how it works for them and they're content with it, God bless them, and I hope all Christian marriages find what works for both spouses.
However, "morning, noon, and night" "any way he wants" isn't usually what works for most people, and because of that, all I'm saying in this post is, let's balance that view out a bit with how real life actually works.
@seoulsearch
You make some very good points. You referenced some of the harsh realities that countless wives face, but the church largely managed by men has been unwilling to acknowledge or address.
Your post reminds me of an article written by Wendy Aslup titled the Harmful Teaching Of Wives As Their Husband's Pornstars. It is definitely worth the read.
https://theologyforwomen.org/2014/07/the-harmful-teaching-of-wives-as-their-husbands-porn-stars.html
Your post also reminds me of the Mary Winkler story. Her husband was a PREACHER who frequently abused her physically and sexually. She snapped under the pressure and killed him.
https://www.foxnews.com/story/preac...husband-forced-me-to-have-sex-refused-divorce
Then, there is Josh and Anna Duggar. They are fundamental Christians who believe a man's quiver should be full of children. Anna Duggar is pregnant with the couple's seventh child. Josh's longtime struggle with sex addiction has played out in the media over the years. Currently, Josh can only see his six children with supervision from his wife Anna as he awaits trial.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/josh-duggar-allowed-see-kids-160757448.html
Again, countless Christian wives (only God knows the exact number) who want to be submissive encounter harsh realities related to sex in marriage. If the incidents that I listed have played out in the public eye, just imagine what goes on behind closed doors. Smh
Musician Don Henley (from The Eagles) has a song called "The End of the Innocence," and it has a line that I think sums it up perfectly: "When happily ever after fails, and we've been poisoned by these fairy tales."
And that very much includes the Christian fairy tale. Now I hope I never come across as someone who thinks she knows very much (because I don't,) but what God HAS enabled me to do is to talk with and read about a lot of people's lives. From the time I was in my teens, and at nearly ever job or situation I was in, people were often telling me some of the most personal details of their lives, often regarding the sexual abuse they had gone through, and how it affected their marriages or current relationships.
My own personal observation is that more and more people are being affected in ways they can't talk very effectively to others about, especially in the church.
I've often wanted to write threads about these topics because I know more people are affected by them than most might think, and these days, boys are just as likely to be abused as girls (if not more, because boys are less likely to tell and might be viewed as "less risky" prey.)
So here we have this deadly combination of shockingly sexually graphic/stirring materials that are more readily available than ever before, right along with an estimated 50-60 million adults in the US alone who were sexually abused as children, and 90% are estimated to never tell anyone (these are stats I just pulled from Google.) Even when exposure is due to curious choice and not abuse, it still gives the recipient "ideas", and often ones that the person will then want to try on/with another human being.
To think this isn't happening to children/people in the church is naive at best, and we can all see the results (yet so many ask why marriages fail.) I once visited a church with family and was introduced to one of their youth leaders, a girl who was maybe 10 years younger than me and had been married for several years. I have no idea how we got onto these topics but I wound up sitting and listening to her outside the entire time instead of going to the regular church service, because she was telling me about how all her past abuse was affecting her marriage. And my greatest sorrow is that I don't feel there is much I can say (even when reciting Bible passages) that will be of some kind of tangible help.
This is something that greatly troubles my heart. We are told, as Christian singles, to keep ourselves "pure", when for so many, their innocence was robbed before they were even old enough to choose, and now they are left dealing with the aftermath, yet somehow are expected to be able to develop perfect Christian marriages to the letter, all on the first and only try.
Something I seem to keep encountering are people who are trying to get over past abuses, trying to follow all the good Christian recommendations, trying to do the good thing by waiting until they get married, then finding an avalanche of problems no one ever told them about. (From my observation, sexual abuse victims often seem to have two opposite knee-jerk reactions to sex when trying to cope with their guilt or shame -- many seem to either shun sex altogether, or become sex-obsessed and try to cover their pain with an endless quest for more and more extreme sex.)
All we singles are told is to "talk about it with your future spouse; be sure you have open, honest communications; get Christian counseling," etc., but how much "success" are people really seeing?
Even when singles are "good" and wait until marriage (and I am not in any way, shape, or form saying that singles should somehow experiment before getting married,) some might be looking forward to what they dream of as an exciting, fulfilling sexual relationship with their spouse, only to find (AFTER marriage, when they're locked in and have no other option but to stay,) that their spouse is terrified of sex (because it brings up painful memories of past abuse,) or maybe their spouse is unsatisfied and wants other options besides what their marriage offers.
NO ONE prepares us for this.
No one tells us, "This is how you can lovingly help your spouse who was sexually abused while not losing yourself in the process." Instead, all they tell us is, "God hates divorce, and if you do divorce, you can never remarry again or you are committing adultery."
I have been wanting to write a thread about subjects like this for a very long time, but as always, it's a challenge to think of how to present these topics in a way that's still family-friendly on a public Christian forum.
But yet these are the very thing things I think people need to be talking about and learning how to handle, because no one out there is teaching us, and it is absolutely killing the people who are living through this (or about to be) everyday.
So, should the husband tell his wife he is getting a concubine? Are you suggesting this is grounds for divorce? Even if we all accept that it’s a problem, what’s the solution? People change over time. Let’s say it’s not the man being denied but he has erectile dysfunction and can no longer have sex (I’m aware there are other ways to satisfy a woman) Are they no longer becoming one?
There are all kinds of messy situations. Let’s say you have a wife and get along ok. She settled, you settled, you’re making the best of it. If you start forcing her to have sex because the Bible tells her she has to, how’s that going to work? Now you aren’t getting the sex you want AND you aren’t getting along. As Forest would say, “Sex life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you’re gonna get.” I can hardly wait to hear the solutions.
Prayer for spiritual castration! So far the best...and only solution.“Lord, heal my sex drive.”Miracle
My guess is you zeroed in on "he can have me however he wants" rather than the rest of the post. I may not have in mind whatever activities you are thinking of from porn. I read the post, and I thought of a woman available to her husband any time.
It also works the other way. There are women whose husbands avoid them or shut them down for marital intimacy also. If either husband or wife is available for their partner whenever it is reasonably possible-- like not during work or when the kids are around or when one of them is too sick or during periods, right after childbirth, etc. That is a good thing. It works both ways.
Whips, chains, swinging, and weird sex is another issue. I wasn't thinking about the (huge) porn problem in our society when I posted. I was thinking of regular intercourse, not anything weird.
Maybe he isn't superman either. But really, how much effort does it take, at least for the young. For the tired party, just laying there does not require that much effort. if someone spent the day digging ditches, it might be difficult.
In Acts 15, the apostles sent a letter to Gentile Christians that included the instruction to abstain from fornication. There was no description of what fornication is in the letter. But James referred to the fact that Moses had long been read in various places. Leviticus 18 contains a list of sins for which Gentiles were driven out of the land, which were forbidden to israelites. Among the sins were various types of incest, beastiality, same sex behavior, and uncovering a woman's nakedness during her time of uncleanness.
Being constantly available to one's partner (within some Biblical limits) and doing weird stuff are two different things. I probably do not know all the strange things that can be done sexually. Apparently, there are all kinds of niches of porn and it isn't just films of two people having sex.
I would imagine if a husband (or wife-- I heard about 40% of porn viewers were women) were watching weird videos, I'd imagine there is a good chance they would keep the stuff in the videos a secret and just do relatively normal stuff with the spouse. Some of them would try to act out the videos in marriage. I also read there are men who become addicted to porn and 'taking care of themselves' and they cannot perform with their wives. It seems counterintuituve that porn would work people up, but they wouldn't respond to sex with a partner.
If both of them want to do it, I do not think it is necessarily sinful to tie each other up or act out a rape fantasy if no one is hurting the other person. If he's beating her up, then that's a problem. But if he puts on a ski mask, and she pretends to scream, I would not say that is sinful. Just keep that private. Other people do not need to know about that, or married couples dressing up like Batman and Batgirl or her nurses uniform or whatever. Weird doesn't necessarily equal sinful.
As far as rape fantasies go, i have heard of men being freaked out by a woman wanting him to act out a rape fantasy and the man being conflicted or confused about it, but I suppose some men would want to act that out. If they both want to do it, though, it isn't really rape since they both agree to it.
I do wonder if some people had a regular sex life in their marriage if they would be less tempted to look at porn. Paul did recommend marriage and marital sex to 'avoid fornication.' He also wrote about rendering due benevolence, that the husband has not power over his own body, but the husband, and the husband has not power over his own body, but the wife. That is why we are having this conversation.
Some people go into marriage, especially these days, after having watched a ton of porn, especially males. I was a little shocked many years ago when I turned on the TV and saw a comedian making jokes about porn videos and people laughing like they knew what he was talking about without any sort of embarrassment, just as if it were a normal thing to watch porn and as if they all watched it. When Sarah Palin was running for Vice President, there were comedians joking about how she looked like a school teacher or librarian in a porn video. I was unfamiliar with the genre of film they were talking about, but apparently there were enough viewers of porn in the audience to think this sort of thing was normal.
I think I am in the high 90's percentage-wise. I try to keep a clear conscience before God in this manner.
No, I was considering the entire post.
I do agree that we are obviously coming from two different perspectives -- you as a married man who has been married for some time, and me as a formerly married woman whose husband left and married someone else, and so I have been part of the single community for a very long time.
I spend most of my social time talking to other singles about their struggles and what the Christian single community faces, as well as a few married about what their married lives are really like.
So when I read the original post we are referring to, I was thinking of how it might be interpreted by both married and those who are singles with a lot of future aspirations for their potential marriages.
As someone who was formerly married, I do understand what you're saying. I'm kind of chuckling to myself though because having your spouse say, "Really, how much effort does it take for you to just lay there (so I can use you,)" isn't exactly a very romantic or caring proposition, but I certainly get what you're saying in that sometimes this is just how real life carries out.
But a single person who has never been married might not realize this, especially when reading a post about a wife who says she makes herself available any time and in any way. As I said before, my purpose in stating the things I pointed out was to hopefully balance out a post that stated what might be thought of as ideal with what really happens in every day life.
I understand that from the beginning, people have always argued over what "fornication" does and doesn't include, and always will argue this point.
I think what you said towards the end of your post (in keeping one's conscience clean before God) is a great guideline to strive for.
I know that Paul's advice to get married rather than "burn with passion" is (or so it seems,) the number one piece of advice doled out to singles. But something along the way seems to go awry, because there are a lot of people (at least from what I read, and people I talk to) whose porn issues didn't go away once they got married. If anything, it seems to sometimes increase the problem because a person gets "bored" with regular married life and craves the things that porn tries to present as shiny and new.
I've read many threads here on CC over the years from people who followed the advice to get married but it seemed to only create new problems, rather than solve the ones they already had. I don't know what the answers are, and I wish I did, because it's heartbreaking to see so many people suffering.
I do believe your observation is correct in that porn has just become a mainstream part of life, and a good number of people accept it as "normal." Friends and even a family member tried to get me into "Game of Thrones" when it was running -- I tried watching the first episode and it was just setting my conscience on fire, and I couldn't watch any more. But I was also wondering what people from, let's say, mainstream 1950's America would be thinking if that had been broadcast in their homes at that time, because I have read that the things we consider to be normal everyday "entertainment" would have been considered rated X material back then.
I'm not trying to criticize anyone who watched Game of Thrones or anyone else for what they watch. It's just that for whatever reason, people have often talked to me about their most personal problems, including sexual abuse, and since God often leads me to pray for these people, I think He's also dialed up my conscience because of it.
I hope you and your wife have a very joyful marriage, and I can't think of any better advice than to keep a clear conscience before God.
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