The Tabernacle in the Wilderness

[bluto]

You could at least be honest about what I said: "The Word clearly says it must be done and is part of salvation. And only God has the answer whether circumstances that make it impossible change anything."

The instructions given that the NT church was required to follow were given after the Holy Ghost was received in the upper room. The thief died well before the commands were given.

No individual church denomination or anyone's personal opinion matters. The ultimate authority is God's Word.

Since you said this: "The Word clearly says it must be done and is part of salvation." Give me all the verses you have that water baptism is a "MUST" in order to be saved? Go ahead, I'll wait.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Waggles]

If baptism is necessary as some preach, he will go to hell.

That is not for you to determine.
Are all other peoples who ever lived in the history of the world automatically condemned and eternally damned?
Is every Buddhist destined for the lake of fire?
Just worry about your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Waggles]

Seems the false teachers out number those who teach the truth.

And what is the truth??

 

[Waggles]

Give me all the verses you have that water baptism is a "MUST" in order to be saved? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Seems we have an old fashioned pharisee in our midst ...
The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?” And they discussed it among themselves, saying,
“If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
Matthew 21:25 (ESV)

Matthew 3:13-17
Mark 1:8-11
Luke 3:21-22
John 3:22-23
And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he [Jesus] who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—
look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.”
John 3:26 (ESV)
Matthew 28:19
Mark 16:16 [note the Bible numerics here]
John 3:5
After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing.
John 3:22 (ESV)
John 4:1-2
Acts 2:38-39
But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ,
they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 8:12 (ESV)
Acts 8:13 & 16

continued on next blog entry ...

 

[Waggles]

continued from previous scripture listings on the need for water baptism (full immersion of course)

Acts 8:35-36 & 38
Acts 9:18
Acts 10:47-48
Acts 16:14-15
Acts 16:31-33
Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing
Paul believed and were baptized.
Acts 18:8
Acts 18:25-26 - explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Acts 19:3-5
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 22:16 (KJV)
Romans 6:1-14 (or 23 if you prefer a whole chapter on the meaning and purpose of water baptism)
1Corinthians 10:1-2
1Corinthians 15:29
Ephesians 5:25-27
Colossians 2:12
Hebrews 6:1-3
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Peter 3:21 (ESV)

 

[TLC209]

But false teaching, even it is from not understand, does not bring glory to God. Quite the opposite.
I really dislike being on this forum. I only continue so as to speak against those who teach a false Gospel.
Seems the false teachers out number those who teach the truth.

I know exactly what you mean. It feels that way. But think how Jesus felt lol this is a Christian site, but im sure you can see the harvest is plenty and the laborors are few. Dont give up dont give in. Do all things for the Lord. And im sure He will give you rest and a second wind. Those who trust in the Lord will not go weary.

God bless you brother. From your testimony im guessing you got me by many many years. Jesus has you covered. This site is not as bad as you may think..

 

[Wansvic]

If a person puts their faith or trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and it is impossible for them to get water baptized are they lost to hell? I ask this same question to wansvic and I'm wondering why she did not answer, so what do you say? Yes of no?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

This morning the following scripture popped into my mind and I could not help but wonder whether it gives insight to the question you asked.

The story below concerns one's physical healing but I believe it speaks of a deeper truth as well. The instructions given were that when the angel troubled the water, the first to get in the pool would be healed. A man wanted to get into the water but was unable.

The story makes it obvious that the man believed the message and understood the instructions that had to be followed in order for one to be healed but his infirmity hindered his ability to comply. Jesus knew the man's heart and healed him.

John 5:2-9
Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.

When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.

Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked:

 

[bluto]

This morning the following scripture popped into my mind and I could not help but wonder whether it gives insight to the question you asked.

The story below concerns one's physical healing but I believe it speaks of a deeper truth as well. The instructions given were that when the angel troubled the water, the first to get in the pool would be healed. A man wanted to get into the water but was unable.

The story makes it obvious that the man believed the message and understood the instructions that had to be followed in order for one to be healed but his infirmity hindered his ability to comply. Jesus knew the man's heart and healed him.

John 5:2-9
Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.

When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.

Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked:

Good morning wansvic. I noticed that you stopped at vs9 of John 5 and did not include the last sentence which says, "Now it was the Sabbath on that day." These words begin to explain the purpose of what Jesus was doing. Vs10, "Therefore the Jews were saying to him who wascured, "It was the Sabbath, anbd it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet."

If you read the rest of the context Jesus was making the point that He as the Son of God does not act independently of His Father, vs19. Look at what Jesus says at John 5:17, "But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because (or why wansvic?) He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Then, as I said at vs19 Jesus explains His mission. In other words, the Father is giving Jesus His blessing as to His true identity. Why would the Jews want to kill Jesus for claiming that God was His own Father? I say this because the Jews themselves claim that God is their Father as well?

Also, look at what Luke 2:49 states, "And He said to them, (that is Mary and Joseph His parents) "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I HAD TO BE ABOUT MY FATHER'S BUSINESS/AFFAIRS?" Even at age 12 Jesus was calling God the Father His own Father.

Now, I know what I'm about to say next you will not like but facts are facts. Since your church teaches that Jesus Christ is God the Father how then do you explain the distinction of "persons" between the Jesus Christ the Son and Jesus Christ at the same time being God the Father? This is what you guys teach and I'm not making this up.

You cannot continue to "whistle in the dark hoping the dark goes away" regarding these heretical beliefs no matter how much you don't like hearing it. This stuff is "REAL" and will not go away. When I was a young man of 22 I went to Vietnam in January of 1968 and was there two weeks and the Tet offensive started. It was absolutely horrible and at the same time it was in a way beautiful watching (especially at nigh)t the tracers of the bullets and the rockets every single night at 2:00am for two weeks straight like the fourth of July. It "DID NOT SEEM REAL." It was like a dream and your saying to yourself, "this can't be happening." Reality finally sets in and your saying to yourself, "people are "REALLY" trying to kill you." Since that time I thank the Lord daily that I'm able to wake up not only to "breath" but to serve Him for getting me out of that mess.

In short, people need to take God seriously because it has eternal consequences and saying things like, "these are only little errors and don't really matter" or "God can handle everything and bring everybody through, just love one another and it will be alright." Think!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Wansvic]

Good morning wansvic. I noticed that you stopped at vs9 of John 5 and did not include the last sentence which says, "Now it was the Sabbath on that day." These words begin to explain the purpose of what Jesus was doing. Vs10, "Therefore the Jews were saying to him who wascured, "It was the Sabbath, anbd it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet."

If you read the rest of the context Jesus was making the point that He as the Son of God does not act independently of His Father, vs19. Look at what Jesus says at John 5:17, "But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because (or why wansvic?) He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Then, as I said at vs19 Jesus explains His mission. In other words, the Father is giving Jesus His blessing as to His true identity. Why would the Jews want to kill Jesus for claiming that God was His own Father? I say this because the Jews themselves claim that God is their Father as well?

Also, look at what Luke 2:49 states, "And He said to them, (that is Mary and Joseph His parents) "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I HAD TO BE ABOUT MY FATHER'S BUSINESS/AFFAIRS?" Even at age 12 Jesus was calling God the Father His own Father.

Now, I know what I'm about to say next you will not like but facts are facts. Since your church teaches that Jesus Christ is God the Father how then do you explain the distinction of "persons" between the Jesus Christ the Son and Jesus Christ at the same time being God the Father? This is what you guys teach and I'm not making this up.

You cannot continue to "whistle in the dark hoping the dark goes away" regarding these heretical beliefs no matter how much you don't like hearing it. This stuff is "REAL" and will not go away. When I was a young man of 22 I went to Vietnam in January of 1968 and was there two weeks and the Tet offensive started. It was absolutely horrible and at the same time it was in a way beautiful watching (especially at nigh)t the tracers of the bullets and the rockets every single night at 2:00am for two weeks straight like the fourth of July. It "DID NOT SEEM REAL." It was like a dream and your saying to yourself, "this can't be happening." Reality finally sets in and your saying to yourself, "people are "REALLY" trying to kill you." Since that time I thank the Lord daily that I'm able to wake up not only to "breath" but to serve Him for getting me out of that mess.

In short, people need to take God seriously because it has eternal consequences and saying things like, "these are only little errors and don't really matter" or "God can handle everything and bring everybody through, just love one another and it will be alright." Think!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Sadly you missed my point. I stated that the story was about something other than salvation but it did however speak of a deeper truth.
Jesus knew the man's heart and healed him because it was impossible for him to get to the water.

 

[Wansvic]

Since you said this: "The Word clearly says it must be done and is part of salvation." Give me all the verses you have that water baptism is a "MUST" in order to be saved? Go ahead, I'll wait.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

You can do a search of the scriptures yourself they are there. Or, just check out waggles response.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You can do a search of the scriptures yourself they are there. Or, just check out waggles response.

I don't believe Waggles is saying that water baptism is essential for salvation. Indeed none of the Scriptures quoted teach that false doctrine. But you still have not backed off from this nonsense from what I can see.

 

[bluto]

Sadly you missed my point. I stated that the story was about something other than salvation but it did however speak of a deeper truth.
Jesus knew the man's heart and healed him because it was impossible for him to get to the water.

I don't believe Waggles is saying that water baptism is essential for salvation. Indeed none of the Scriptures quoted teach that false doctrine. But you still have not backed off from this nonsense from what I can see.

I'm pretty sure waggles does teach that is essential to salvation. Read his post, especially #204 and 205. I ask him that very question. And btw, keep up the good work.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Nehemiah6]

I'm pretty sure waggles does teach that is essential to salvation.

If that is true, then Waggles has indeed gone off the rails. That is probably because of an excess of Vegimite in the system.

 

[Waggles]

Believe the scriptures for they tell us what must i do to be save

I don't believe Waggles is saying that water baptism is essential for salvation. Indeed none of the Scriptures quoted teach that false doctrine.

Waggles does not preach that water baptism by full immersion is necessary true belief of the gospel of salvation, but God and
the scriptures certainly do preach this.
Believe the scriptures and just be obedient.
Stop exalting your own self-will and submit to the commandments of God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...but God and the scriptures certainly do preach this.

DEFINITELY NOT. THAT'S YOUR OWN FALSE DOCTRINE.

And here's the proof from Scripture (Acts 10):

1. PETER PREACHED THE GOSPEL
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

2. HEARERS BELIEVED AND RECEIVED THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST (SALVATION)
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the Word.

3. JEWS ASTONISHED AT THE SALVATION OF GENTILES
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

4. WATER BAPTISM WAS NECESSARY AFTER SALVATION
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

5. PETER COMMANDED THE BAPTISM OF THOSE ALREADY SAVED
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Now you and others of your ilk have two options (1) believe what God has revealed by the Spirit in His written Word or (2) keep on promoting false doctrines, endangering souls, and pay the penalty for perverting the Truth.

 

[Waggles]

1. PETER PREACHED THE GOSPEL
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Laugh out loud
the epistles are written to the saints of the Pentecostal Churches of the first century Roman world wherein ALL disciples
believed and obeyed Acts 2:38
and wherein ALL disciples were baptised by full immersion and ALL disciples where baptized in the Holy Spirit and yes ALL
disciples could pray in tongues.
These are to whom the epistles are written - NOT the Roman Catholics, nor Protestants, neither Orthodox and certainly not
for today's U.S. versions of Christianity.

 

[bluto]

Laugh out loud
the epistles are written to the saints of the Pentecostal Churches of the first century Roman world wherein ALL disciples
believed and obeyed Acts 2:38
and wherein ALL disciples were baptised by full immersion and ALL disciples where baptized in the Holy Spirit and yes ALL
disciples could pray in tongues.
These are to whom the epistles are written - NOT the Roman Catholics, nor Protestants, neither Orthodox and certainly not
for today's U.S. versions of Christianity.

News flash wiggles, Matthew 28:18-20 was given long before Acts 2:38. Notice it says, "Go and make disciples first, and then they are water baptized showing that they are disciples of Jesus Christ. Secondly, regarding all those verses you gave me look at Mark 1:8, "I baptize you with water; but He/Jesus Christ will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Also take note of Acts 19:1-7. If John's baptism is attached to salvation then why did the disciples not receive the Holy Spirit under John's baptism? Did you notice at vs2 the words, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" Believe what waggles? In getting baptized with water? No, believe in Jesus Christ and then they were water baptized. You got this whole thing "butt" backwards. Your "Revival Fellowship church is what needs reviving from their heretical non-Biblcal teachings. And as a side note, I suggest you read Acts 18_24-28, the story of Apollos and tell us all here why he had to be explained the way of God more accurately? Verses 25,26?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Waggles]

And as a side note, I suggest you read Acts 18_24-28, the story of Apollos and tell us all here why he had to be explained the way of God more accurately? Verses 25,26?

Good grief you really are ignorant of the truth of the scriptures and of the gospel.
Stop wrestling and contending with the scriptures - simply believe and obey.
All that theology only leads to unbelief.

Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.
Matthew 10:15 & Luke 18:17

 

[Waggles]

4. WATER BAPTISM WAS NECESSARY AFTER SALVATION
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And what about the innumerable number of converts who are baptised by full immersion first and then received the baptism
of the Holy Spirit (and pray in a new tongue) afterwards??

 

[dcontroversal]

Good luck guys with those that water down the blood with H2O as a requirement to gain or keep salvation...............faith plus works = nadda, zero, nil, zip, nothing.......

Faith saves a man...Immersion is the PICTURE of said salvation...a work of righteousness, the 1st act of obedience....it does not save, keep saved, top off salvation, finish salvation........