The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, why was it created and placed on earth?

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TMS said:
I see it as God alone has immortality and can give life to who ever He chooses.
having life and the ability to create life is different. Having the gift of life every day and never coming to death is what we will have because God gives us life.... We do not have our own self existent source of life, we cannot live without Gods life in us. while we are connected to the vine we have life, sin cuts us off from the source of life and we slowly wither and die.

Without God can anything exist and live?
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Before the fall, Adam had the breath of God in him and no sin to separate him from God.
I can't see why I should assume he was in a perpetual state of death that needed to be temporarily 'fixed' every other day by eating from the tree of life.

So if he is sinless, that makes sense to me as equivalently deathless. God is with him and sustaining him, until by sin he becomes separated.
 
posthuman said:
You are assuming that entropy existed before sin entered the world, and also assuming that this was constantly remedied by a steady diet of death-antidote.

To me, it seems like you are directly contradicting Romans 5 - which says death entered through sin.
You have the whole creation permeated with death, before there is any sin to cause that death.

So I think those are bad assumptions.
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Laws of physics existed since the very beginning to make the whole system work, that’s why God said that all these creations were “good”. Of course, death entered through sin, that’s because there was no more access to the Tree of Life, that doesn’t mean the second law of thermodynamics was triggered all of a sudden by a bite of the forbidden fruit.
 
posthuman said:
This is the same question as 'did Adam have to keep eating from the tree of life periodically otherwise he would die' before the Fall.
Or, 'was Adam created immortal in the beginning'

Because we are talking about pure, sinless humanity in its originally intended created state.

Only two men have ever existed in such a sinless state on earth, Adam 1.0 and Adam 2.0

Was Christ's sinless body subject to decay and corruption?
Was Adam's, while he had no sin?
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Adam was of the natural world. The question should perhaps rather be, was Adam in need of a Spiritual rebirth
in order to attain to life ever after? The Tree of Life was within his grasp. God knew which choice Adam would
make. Along with all we are told of the natural man, and knowing we are perfected in Christ alone...
 
posthuman said:
Before the fall, Adam had the breath of God in him and no sin to separate him from God.
I can't see why I should assume he was in a perpetual state of death that needed
to be temporarily 'fixed' every other day by eating from the tree of life.

So if he is sinless, that makes sense to me as equivalently deathless. God
is with him and sustaining him, until by sin he becomes separated.
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Carry_Your_Name said:
Of course, death entered through sin, that’s because there was no more access to the Tree of Life
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I do not understand why people think Adam would need to eat from the Tree of Life in order to sustain his existence. If this were true, all with the breath of life would need to do the same. Physical life is sustained by God regardless of one's Spiritual state. Scripture makes this clear. Scripture is also pretty clear that the Tree of Life was barred from Adam and Eve after they sinned so they could not eat from it ALSO.
 
Magenta said:
I do not understand why people think Adam would need to eat from the Tree of Life in order to sustain his existence. If this were true, all with the breath of life would need to do the same. Physical life is sustained by God regardless of one's Spiritual state. Scripture makes this clear. Scripture is also pretty clear that the Tree of Life was barred from Adam and Eve after they sinned so they could not eat from it ALSO.
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yes! - he was told he "dying you shall die" would be added to him in the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good from evil.
exactly as though "dying" was not his present state.

to suppose he had to eat from the tree of life regularly in order to keep himself from death is to say that he was already "dying" -- that the "very good" sinless state of his initial creation was being full of death & addicted to an ineffectual antidote - ineffectual because even if he ate from it once, he would only have to eat from it again.

so IMO such a position is irrevocably wrong on at least three accounts: ((1)), it contradicts Romans 5:12 because it places death before sin. ((2)), it contradicts Romans 6:23 because it makes the gift of God death, rather than life, giving Adam the wages of sin even while he has no sin, and ((3)), it makes the tree of life a "lie" because it doesn't give true life, it only gives a temporary illusion of life that is instead swallowed up by death, contradicting 1 Corinthians 15:54.

i don't understand why anyone would believe that for a second, but it's amazingly common!
 
Magenta said:
Adam was of the natural world. The question should perhaps rather be, was Adam in need of a Spiritual rebirth
in order to attain to life ever after? The Tree of Life was within his grasp. God knew which choice Adam would
make. Along with all we are told of the natural man, and knowing we are perfected in Christ alone...
Click to expand...

i think the corruption of sin must be a gradual one, because it still strikes me that Adam did not eat from the tree of life when he had every chance to. the time they spent making tunics out of fig leaves: how long?
certainly enough time to have gone to the tree of life and eaten of it.

so Adam had to know that it would be disastrous if they did. the two of them kept away from it, afraid, and spent their time making these garments of shame instead. the only other explanation is that he was a complete idiot and it never occurred to him to just take the 'antidote' -- which, it makes no sense that Adam is stupid. and that is even further proof that he wasn't in the habit of regularly eating from the tree of life in order to stave off some unexplained ((and IMO frankly blasphemous)) "dying-you-shall-die" state he was supposedly already in while he was yet sinless!

point being that he still had his faculties and understood that he must not let himself or his wife go to the tree of life in the state they were in. he did not become immediately totally wicked or foolish by committing that sin - he did something very wise, staying away from it, recognizing his shame, making garments, shoddy as they were. and then the two of them confessed their sin to God, and he believed the promise.
 
posthuman said:
i think the corruption of sin must be a gradual one, because it still strikes me that Adam did not eat from the tree of life when he had every chance to. the time they spent making tunics out of fig leaves: how long?
certainly enough time to have gone to the tree of life and eaten of it.

so Adam had to know that it would be disastrous if they did. the two of them kept away from it, afraid, and spent their time making these garments of shame instead. the only other explanation is that he was a complete idiot and it never occurred to him to just take the 'antidote' -- which, it makes no sense that Adam is stupid. and that is even further proof that he wasn't in the habit of regularly eating from the tree of life in order to stave off some unexplained ((and IMO frankly blasphemous)) "dying-you-shall-die" state he was supposedly already in while he was yet sinless!

point being that he still had his faculties and understood that he must not let himself or his wife go to the tree of life in the state they were in. he did not become immediately totally wicked or foolish by committing that sin - he did something very wise, staying away from it, recognizing his shame, making garments, shoddy as they were. and then the two of them confessed their sin to God, and he believed the promise.
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Surely God would have intervened before they, A&E, would have had a chance to eat of the Tree of Life after they sinned. Adam could have been in a bit of a panic, too, after eating the forbidden fruit Even very smart people do not think straight when they are running scared :unsure:
 
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Magenta said:
I do not understand why people think Adam would need to eat from the Tree of Life in order to sustain his existence. If this were true, all with the breath of life would need to do the same. Physical life is sustained by God regardless of one's Spiritual state. Scripture makes this clear. Scripture is also pretty clear that the Tree of Life was barred from Adam and Eve after they sinned so they could not eat from it ALSO.
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Physical life came from the breath of God, IMMORTALITY was sustained by the tree of life, those two are not necessarily the same. After the fall, we still exist, of course, but only for a limited time, about 70-80 years in average, according to Psalms 90:10, for the wages of sin is death. You can go search “telomere” and learn about aging, that’s the “cap” on the end of chromosomes that store genetic material as a backup for remedy. When that is used up, all kinds of diseases begin to show up and the body becomes extra vulnerable to them. I don’t believe this was an added feature in God’s design right after the fall. The universe is not static, it’s in a dynamic balance. What naturally declines and deteriorates by itself, God has the power to reserve it. That’s the power that brings Jesus back to life.
 
Carry_Your_Name said:
Physical life came from the breath of God, IMMORTALITY was sustained by the tree of life, those two are not necessarily the same. After the fall, we still exist, of course, but only for a limited time, about 70-80 years in average, according to Psalms 90:10, for the wages of sin is death. You can go search “telomere” and learn about aging, that’s the “cap” on the end of chromosomes that store genetic material as a backup for remedy. When that is used up, all kinds of diseases begin to show up and the body becomes extra vulnerable to them. I don’t believe this was an added feature in God’s design right after the fall.
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Obviously it was not, since Adam lived 930 years and until Noah's time,
people were still living hundreds and hundreds of years before dying.

I believe Adam was created with the potential to be immortal.

I cannot see anything in the text to suggest he was, though.

Quite the opposite.

Nor does the text suggest he had to eat from the Tree of Life to sustain his existence.

Again, quite the opposite.
 
Magenta said:
Obviously it was not, since Adam lived 930 years and until Noah's time,
people were still living hundreds and hundreds of years before dying.

I believe Adam was created with the potential to be immortal.

I cannot see anything in the text to suggest he was, though.

Quite the opposite.

Nor does the text suggest he had to eat from the Tree of Life to sustain his existence.

Again, quite the opposite.
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Everyone starts dying since the first breath, for in Adam, all die. What makes you think that he was created to be immortal by his own strength? Jesus is the truth, the way, the LIFE. We are designed to rely on Him, not ourselves. Sin separated us from the source of life, therefore we eventually die.
 
Magenta said:
Surely God would have intervened before they, A&E, would have had a chance to eat of the Tree of Life after they sinned. Adam could have been in a bit of a panic, too, after eating the forbidden fruit Even very smart people do not think straight when they are running scared :unsure:
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it's my opinion he had a plan. that he had thought through the 'what-ifs'
 
Carry_Your_Name said:
Everyone starts dying since the first breath, for in Adam, all die. What makes you think that he was created to be immortal by his own strength? Jesus is the truth, the way, the LIFE. We are designed to rely on Him, not ourselves. Sin separated us from the source of life, therefore we eventually die.
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I don't think anyone has posited that he would live forever if he hadn't sinned, 'by his own strength'

Adam wasn't created separated from God. he had an intimate relationship with Him.
 
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posthuman said:
I don't think anyone has posited that he would live forever if he hadn't sinned, 'by his own strength'

Adam wasn't created separated from God. he had an intimate relationship with Him.
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All that I'm saying is that there was no potential of immortality - before or after the fall. You've probably heard some crazy outlooks from the "experts" that human could live 150 years or even hundreds like Noah, meanwhile in reality, life expectancy has been DECLINING over the past few years mostly due to opioid - the real epidemic. You see, even though we've sinned, if we honor our father and mother, which means not only a good healthy relationship with mom and dad, but also a traditional, natural, peaceful way of life, then our mortal days will be long. We all know how that goes, and we've seen the DEADLY results.
 
Carry_Your_Name said:
Everyone starts dying since the first breath, for in Adam, all die. What makes you think that he was created to be immortal by his own strength? Jesus is the truth, the way, the LIFE. We are designed to rely on Him, not ourselves. Sin separated us from the source of life, therefore we eventually die.
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I did not say Adam was created to be immortal by his own strength.

Nothing, absolutely nothing I have said even hinted at such a thing :oops:

Again, quite the opposite.

People have serious comprehension problems :rolleyes:
 
Carry_Your_Name said:
All that I'm saying is that there was no potential of immortality - before or after the fall.
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As if he was not allowed to eat from the Tree of Life? Wow.

The potential was there. Adam failed the test.

As God knew he would. The natural man...
 
Magenta said:
As if he was not allowed to eat from the Tree of Life? Wow.

The potential was there. Adam failed the test.

As God knew he would. The natural man...
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Immortality depended on the Tree of Life. Without it, he lived on borrowed time. He and all mankind.
 
Magenta said:
Yeah? As I said: He had the potential. He failed the test.

How you got from what I said where you jumped to I have no idea.
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No he didn't. Our physical being formed from the dust of the ground is a transient state, it's never meant to be eternal, and there's absolutely no inherent "potential" of immortality. That's not a "test", that was the design. All God's people with receive an incorruptible, glorified body, that's the end point.
 
Carry_Your_Name said:
No he didn't. Our physical being formed from the dust of the ground is a transient state, it's never meant to be eternal, and there's absolutely no inherent "potential" of immortality. That's not a "test", that was the design. All God's people with receive an incorruptible, glorified body, that's the end point.
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You are born in/after Adam. If you don't have the potential to live ever after
by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Christ, you are lost.

Adam would have received the same benefit we do if he had chosen wisely.

He failed the test.

God did not make Adam sin.

I did not say Adam was created to be immortal by his own strength.

Nothing, absolutely nothing I have said even hinted at such a thing :oops:
 
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