The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

[Absolutely]

Peter is writing to the scattered tribes that had received the gospel not only the Jews:

(1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered (Greek diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia)

And so is James:

(James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered (Greek diaspora) abroad, greeting.)

Therefore the tribes have been united under one stick in Christ. There is no need to look for a third recovering:

(Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.)

(Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.)


You can't have Gentiles in the church/kingdom without the recovering of his people, the two go hand in hand as Isaiah states.

For quite a few years the jews have been returning to Israel

 

[KJV1611]

Exactly


I'm not sure that 5:15 relates to their future K16, I think chapter 6 explains the resolution.

Where do you place the new "heavens and earth"?

Agree, chapter 6 explains the resolution... on the THIRD day. TDW thinks that's 2000 years down the road, I think it was the resurrection.

 

[garee]

For quite a few years the jews have been returning to Israel

Why and how would the idea of fleshly outward Jews retuning to returning to earthly Jerusalem affect the outcome of the gospel? Is the gospel not more of inward Jews when born again enter Zion the eternal city prepared as His bride?

Has not the outward Jew same classification as gentile received all promises according to the corrupted flesh?

 

[KJV1611]

So you see Revelation 21 as past tense?,,,when do you see it to have taken place?

I do think it has already taken place. There's only two Jerusalem's in the bible, earthly - destroyed and heavenly - came with Christ.

 

[KJV1611]

Where do you place the new "heavens and earth"?

I don't know for sure I would think Heavenly Jerusalem came with Christ and earthly Jerusalem was burnt up a little bit later. I need to study more about that. That would be a good subject for a new thread.

 

[garee]

The Great Tribulation was in 1st century AD, Luke's account when tied to Matthew's tells you the time (when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies) they were to flee:

(Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. )

(Luke 21:21 “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city )

----------------------------------------

(Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. )

(Mat 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. )

(Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth )

There can be no doubt that the "hour of temptation" describes the great tribulation.

Matt and Luke are speaking of the same time and events in the 1st century which means any theology that places the above 2000 years and counting later are based on sand, which we've seen shifts with every generation since.

I think shifts in the generation of man call evil (unconverted mankind) are normal when looking to the things seen . The generation of Christ as eternal. . . the born again generation does not change according to the generations of men. what ever kind of limit they attach to it .Some twenty, others forty or seventy (the temporal)


I would agree when the time of reformation came the great tribulation for Jacob began. National Jews lost their identity as being recognized as those God has used to represent faith of mankind, or lack of it.

Matthew 21:19 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) He saw a fig tree beside the road and went to get a fig from it. But there were no figs on the tree. There were only leaves. So Jesus said to the tree, “You will never again produce fruit!” The tree immediately dried

Only leaves, leaves represent the healing of all nations . The healer who produced the temporal fruit cut off the use fruiit that pointed ahead to his coming.

 

[KJV1611]

(1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.)

That is the chuch in the new covenant.
Peter is addressing the church. Jewish believers.
The first churches were jews. Born again jews.

Were not a people=jews in blind following of the ot apart from the rebirth

Now a people= what paul declares as a new creation,the old things/self being passed away

I agree with you!

This PROVES beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Jews - flesh descendants of Israel ARE NOT and NEVER HAVE BEEN the people of God nor God's chosen people.

 

[garee]

So you see Revelation 21 as past tense?,,,when do you see it to have taken place?

I would think when Christ said; "it is finished" end of the one time demonstration , the veil was rent, the gates where opened and the promised saints that were asleep in their grave entered the city prepared as his bride. The ressurection gate stays open until the last day . When the letter of the law that kills as death will be tossed into the lake of fire never to rise from the ashes to condemn a whole creation ever again.

 

[azamzimtoti]

I don't know for sure I would think Heavenly Jerusalem came with Christ and earthly Jerusalem was burnt up a little bit later. I need to study more about that. That would be a good subject for a new thread.

I think what is missed in dispensational theology is the types/antitypes in the scripture.

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

The physical priesthood type replaced with the antitype royal priesthood (from all nations).

The physical nation type replaced with the antitype spiritual (holy) nation.
.
The physical temple type replaced with the antitype of God/believers with Christ as the cornerstone.

The physical scarifies types replaced with the antitype spiritual sacrifice.

(Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.)

Paul states these shadow types were to be done away:

(Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days)

(Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.)

So to claim there will be another physical temple is to replace the real with another shadow.

 

[KJV1611]

^ The way I see it (as I've stated before), that the opening of the first SEAL is when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Rev4-5 [/Isa3:13]) and that I see a parallel in the kind of wording found in both 2Th2:7b-8a and Lam2:3-4 [among "wrath" words there], so that it is God who is using these things, to greater "ends" (both the bringing of Israel to faith [and into the New Covenant] [the "WISE" of Israel, i.e. the believing remnant of Israel in the trib years]; as well as the destruction of the wicked [see Dan12:10, for example (context: Israel, there)]). IOW, the FIRST SEAL is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" at the START of the 7-yr trib [/the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period which will unfold upon the earth (1st SEAL = "man of sin")]… these other things (mentioned in my previous post) are the "set up" toward that end.

Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Witness 1
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Witness 2
Zec_9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Do you know of any Old Testament verses that talk about "The Antichrist" riding a white horse?

 

[KJV1611]

I think what is missed in dispensational theology is the types/antitypes in the scripture.

(1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light)

The physical priesthood type replaced with the antitype royal priesthood (from all nations).

The physical nation type replaced with the antitype spiritual (holy) nation.
.
The physical temple type replaced with the antitype of God/believers with Christ as the cornerstone.

The physical scarifies types replaced with the antitype spiritual sacrifice.

(Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.)

Paul states these shadow types were to be done away:

(Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days)

(Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.)

So to claim there will be another physical temple is to replace the real with another shadow.

I agree completely and thanks for posting that, I copied it to my notes!

It's even seen in 1) Abraham 2) Isaac 3) Jacob - 3 dimensions - earthy. It's seen in the Levitical priesthood... Levi was the THIRD son. Leviticus is the THIRD book of the bible. And then you have For all that is in the world, 1) the lust of the flesh, 2) and the lust of the eyes, 3) and the pride of life. It goes on and on and on.

Then comes the gospels 1) Matthew 2) Mark 3) Luke 4) John. Christ was a priest after the order of Melchizedek and Jesus came from Judah, the FOURTH son (the new priesthood). The heavenly city is FOUR square. Then you have the FOURTH generation, the FOUR beasts, God gathering his elect from the FOUR winds, a great sheet knit at the FOUR corners, and let down to the earth. The number four in the bible almost always points to the spiritual realm.

BTW, Ezekiel's temple is the FOURTH temple when you include the wilderness tabernacle.

 

[iamsoandso]

I do think it has already taken place. There's only two Jerusalem's in the bible, earthly - destroyed and heavenly - came with Christ.

In Acts 3:21 "until the restitution of all things"(approx ad30-32) Peter filled with the HS thinks this is future. In 2 Corinthians it states "shadow of things to come..."(approx ad55) Paul thinks this is future. In Acts 24:15(approx ad57) Paul thinks that the Resurrection of the just and the unjust is future. Do you think the new heavens and new earth came after these things or that they are tied to it at all? It seems clear that the apostles thought it was not yet fulfilled when they spoke and wrote these things is why I ask.

 

[garee]

Jackson123 said:
Tribulation is only 7 years

If It is start in 70 AD, than It has been 1949 years and we still able to buy and sale. In the tribulation only the one that take the mark of the beast able to buy and sale..

The way you use buy and sell comes from a false wonder .its not a famine for food for these bodies of death. But the kind of food the disciples knew not of at first..... the gospel

Many literalizers try and develop what the bible calls "sign and wonder gospel" . Not distinguishing between the two (1 sign and 2 wonder.)

Christ will come like a thief in the night on the last day and destroy this present corrupted earth and heavens. (up in smoke) Signs as that which points ahead are false wonders, a false source of future events .

John 4:48 Jesus said to him, “You people must see miraculous signs and wonders before you will believe in me.”

The last sign as a wonderment as source of faith for looking ahead the sign of Jonas was fulfilled. Big difference between "sign of the times" (generalizing) and a sign and wonder (specific future prophecy)

like the mark on the hand (a metaphor that represent the will of natural unconverted mankind . We walk by faith no sign as a wonder where given or needed., Its an evil generation natural man that does seek after one.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

How many signs as a wonder, none.

The great tribulation started when Christ said it was finished.(It was finished) The temporal use of the abomination of desecration. Temple built with human hands which came temporality when God gave over the faithless Jews to do what they should not of by setting up a pagan form of Government had come to a end. They had insisted God give them a king not desired to walk by faith worshipping the King of kings not seen .Again no faith.

The un believing Jew lost its false security as God's people according to the flesh . A great tribulation for a Jew who was hoping his flesh could profit for something. Even knowing Christ said of his own flesh it profits not. That tribulation identifying an outward Jew is still occurring men crying out to a brick wall, and will up till the last day.

The buying and selling is the truth of the gospel We are to buy it and not sell it for a cup of soup like Esau or the marked (666) man Cain.

 

[Absolutely]

I agree with you!

This PROVES beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Jews - flesh descendants of Israel ARE NOT and NEVER HAVE BEEN the people of God nor God's chosen people.

Who is the branch cut off that allowed another to be grafted in,which paul says those cut off will be grafted back in?
He refers to the covenant people ...the Jews.
They are still covenant people.

But i can see why you need that out of the way.

 

[Absolutely]

In Acts 3:21 "until the restitution of all things"(approx ad30-32) Peter filled with the HS thinks this is future. In 2 Corinthians it states "shadow of things to come..."(approx ad55) Paul thinks this is future. In Acts 24:15(approx ad57) Paul thinks that the Resurrection of the just and the unjust is future. Do you think the new heavens and new earth came after these things or that they are tied to it at all? It seems clear that the apostles thought it was not yet fulfilled when they spoke and wrote these things is why I ask.

Good point
The 7 letters to 7 churches written around 90 ad seems to have Jesus misunderstanding that he is supposed to frame rev in a historic time frame.

 

[iamsoandso]

Good point
The 7 letters to 7 churches written around 90 ad seems to have Jesus misunderstanding that he is supposed to frame rev in a historic time frame.

I at some point in my life I had heard so many different opinions on these issues(about timing of things) that I thought I would just look at what the apostles said. so I re-read through to see in specific if the apostles were wording things in a future wording or past tense on the different issues commonly debated and then compared it to a timeline of the events(what year each book was written and what year the comments were made in Scripture/mileage may vary in the timelines on the www,lol ).

Some things I found I could determine an answer to in the Scriptures and others not and so I began to look at the letters of the early Church( after the NT books) because it made me wonder if they spoke of the things we most commonly have mixed opinions on. That though I admit might not be any more helpful than our own opinions if I went too far away in time from the Apostles books.

I noticed that there are two different groups,,one is "Apostolic fathers" the other is "Church fathers" the difference between the two is that the Apostolic fathers knew the Apostles and were appointed in several cases by the Apostles over different Churches(seems the Apostles would not have chosen them to head a Church if they differed in what they saw as truth),but they did set them in charge as their lives were ending. The other group after about 175ad'ish I don't trust as much because they did not know the Apostles personally.

I think I'm almost out of data for a few days(ISP,,I'll see if or not) but I might be offline a few days(maybe not,lol)

 

[iamsoandso]

lol, and if I made any errors I'll never get a page to load in under the 5 minute rule so pardon me...

 

[Jimbone]

Jimbone,

If you take a close look at the original Greek language wording of those [Olivet] "til all be fulfilled" verses - you should find that the actual meaning represented is "shall begin to be fulfilled" - as in - "all of these things will begin to come to pass before the current generation dies out.

And, it did! The fulfillment started even before 70 A.D.

Okay, first off I agree 100%, it started even before It was sacked, 7 years before while the church was so persecuted I agree. So now we get down to it after that, are you saying the covenant breakers were not judged? Are you saying the end of the "aión" did not come? If we are going to the Greek let us not skip this part. The end of a "world" is never mentioned, what about that?

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality(type of existence).
Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiṓn) of the covenant – the time-period called the NT. It is characterized by Christ baptizing all believers in the Holy Spirit, i.e. engrafting all believers (OT, NT) into His mystical body (1 Cor 12:13) with all the marvelous privileges that go with that (Gal 3:23-25; 1 Pet 2:5,9).



That said, when Pilate asked in John 19:14-16

It was about the sixth hour. He (Pilate) said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The" chief" priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” So he delivered him over to them to be crucified.

And in Mat 27:25-31
And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!” Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.


Even when Jesus was walking to the place of crucifixion He told the women, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.", because He knew judgement was coming upon them, and they were judged, and the end of Gods age of sacrifice and the priesthood to usher in the Messiah and the coming of His kingdom. It just fits together in only the way our God could do it, and more than that I have to testify it gives me the boldness to know and proclaim boldly that Jesus Christ reigns RIGHT NOW!!!, and calls all to come. I don't believe any of that power is gone, it's all here, and it's all going under Him. Praise His mighty name! I honestly don't want to debate what the greek means or even present it in a way that seems so right, and is in the world, be these things we are dealing with in Jesus are things of the Spirit, and that is what it has to come down to in any kind of evangelistic outreach dialogue, but here between believers it's a bit different, all I want to try to share is the "spirit" of it more so than the meaning of words in a clear text. One last time, you can not convince me that for the whole history of the books of the bible translated into English take it was translated so poorly as to mean the opposite of what it says. I have read every word you posted and still do not see anything that even suggest it could mean what the PTR view says it does.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Witness 1 Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Witness 2 Zec_9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Do you know of any Old Testament verses that talk about "The Antichrist" riding a white horse?

Perhaps you may recall some of my posts that pointed out the following:

--"had a bow" (where "bow" often represents "deception"...[that's even aside from the study on the word "arrow" which isn't mentioned here]; then see the passages I listed referring to the ARRIVAL of the man of sin [at the START of the trib (parallel time-wise with the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period/INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]")], such as Matt24:4/Mk13:5... 2Th2:8a... 2Th2:9a [parallel Dan9:27(26)]... 1Th5:2-3 ['in the night' (parallel Dan7:7's 'in the night')--they involve "deception" (that's what "anti-Christ" [i.e. pseudo-Christ] refers to, as I see it... [and see 2Th2:10-12's "that they should believe the pseudei/the false"<--this referring to the future trib yrs, not presently])]

--"given a crown" (same word [tho different ppl!] as used with regard to the "24 elders" seated on thrones in heaven before the opening of the first seal, where they say in 5:9 "US" [per manuscript evidence I already shared], and the following verse [said by others ABOUT them] "made them... kings and priests... and they shall reign on the earth"... so comparing these, one can see that "crown" can speak to this idea of "reigning" [tho, again, I am NOT suggesting these two passages are speaking of the same persons/entities/body of ppl, or whatever... I'm just pointing out the "crown" aspect)

--in the OT (as I've mentioned before), "kings went [/go] out to battle" at a very specific time of year (consistent with my studies I've also presented [in part] in the past, involving the "chronology" and so forth)

--the word also in Rev6:2 "conquering, and to conquer" is the same Grk word used of events taking place LATER in the chronology, where 11:7 and 13:7 say, "and shall overcome them, and kill them [the 2W]" and "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (compare this verse with Dan7:20-21 - "and shall prevail against them")


Can you see any correlations here? (per what I've put also in past posts)

Hope this helps somewhat, with what you are asking. (there's more... this is just a sampling)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (should read): "(compare this verse with Dan7:20-21 - "and prevailed against them [/the saints]")"

[where I'd mistakenly written "SHALL" in there]