The Vigilant Pumicestone

[Pumicestone]

Vigilant Warrior and I have been exploring Biblical stuff in the "Killer-cops" thread.
(One thing just led to another)

So we agreed to move here before the Off-Topic brigade smacked our hands.

As a life-long 'seeker-after-truth' should I not come to a Christian site ?

I made a "Decision for Christ" at the tender age of 13 - and was convinced I was 'called' to the ministry.
I studied, read, witnessed ('till my school-friends thought I was nuts), prayed - utterly steeped in the Word and my local Baptist church.

Without doubt the happiest years of my life - 'casting all your cares upon him because he careth for you'.
Life was so simple - so crystal clear.

But, by the time I was twenty, the doubts were flooding in.
More reading, more study, more lectures, more exposure to alternate opinions, together with my life-experiences, convinced me I had backed the wrong horse.
I cannot choose to believe. Things must make sense.

But I'd like to believe and perhaps my presence here is part of that forlorn hope ?
Be assured, I will go if I am unwelcome.

It is certainly not my wish to "un-convert" others - even if I could.

If you are indeed seeking Christ, then saying "there is no spiritual solution" negates any chance you will find Him.

With these words, you have shown yourself in a new light, and I apologize for any verbal punishment I've given you. Are you aware you went through a "desert experience" that many people at the age of 20 or so go through? Somehow, you have not found your way back into the light. I understand things "having to make sense," but by the same token, the Gospel makes more sense than anything the world has to offer. If I can be of any help, please let me know. My PMs are open.

Too often we treat unbelievers or "desert walkers" with contempt. I think it is the anonymity of the Internet that allows us to do so as easily as we do, with impunity. I know I've tended to do so with you. Let me make amends and try to help you in any way you see fit. God bless.

I thank you for your kind words Vig - and I do not for one second doubt your sincerity.
However, I suspect we may be too far apart to accomplish much.

For example, when I say "As a life-long 'seeker-after-truth' "
you interpret that as
" If you are indeed seeking Christ ... ".
To me, that is not necessarily the same thing.

But is not Christ "the way, the truth, and the life"? As one who had his greatest joy when he was immersed in the word of God, you embraced that at one time. How have you gotten so far removed from it? If we examine that, we may find the answers to your search.

Well for starters I guess, I was then a naive, gullible teenager. Now I'm not.

And I have no confidence that Yeshua ever said "I am the way, the truth and the life" because I perceive the "bible" to be a most unreliable source for a whole host of reasons.


But Vig, whilst I am more than happy to engage with you on these matters - in fact I admire your willingness to do so -
might I suggest that perhaps we should create another thread ?
This clearly has little to do with killer-cops (American or otherwise) and I can hear the "Off Topic" alarm bells ringing loudly in my ears.

Good idea. "Miscellaneous" would probably be the best location. Meet you there?

Go for it, Vig !

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Vigilant Warrior and I have been exploring Biblical stuff in the "Killer-cops" thread.
(One thing just led to another)

So we agreed to move here before the Off-Topic brigade smacked our hands.



Go for it, Vig !

Unfortunately, I've got a lunch meeting I've got to get to, but I will return this afternoon and we'll get started. See you in your tomorrow. God bless.

 

[blue_ladybug]

This thread is off-topic!!

*somebody had to say it..

 

[Pumicestone]

How could it be "Off Topic" in Miscellaneous ?

But I'll assume you're joking







Signed: The Pumicestone Warrior

 

[phil38111]

Pumistone Im not sure of the purpose of this thread, but Im assuming it is a debate on whether the scriptures are reliable or not. Am I right??

 

[blue_ladybug]

How could it be "Off Topic" in Miscellaneous ?

But I'll assume you're joking


Signed: The Pumicestone Warrior

yup i was..

 

[Pumicestone]

Pumistone Im not sure of the purpose of this thread, but Im assuming it is a debate on whether the scriptures are reliable or not. Am I right??

Got it in one, Phil !
I admit the thread Title doesn't convey much ...

Pumicestone, the Bible is a reliable source.
If you think otherwise, then just pick up a scholarly book called "the Case For Christ" and it will clear everything up for you.
One of the chapters is about whether the New Testament books are reliable or not.
Don't just come to conclusions in your own mind without doing proper research first.
I hope I am not casting pearls before swine, but all I can do it point you to the evidence.
It is up to you whether you will actually do the research or not.

Mate I've had a brief look at "The Case for Christ" and will most certainly pursue it further.
Initial impressions though are hardly convincing,
It seems to be a summary of the author's interviews with a dozen or so hard-core evangelicals - and nobody else !

One is rarely likely to arrive at any Truth by looking at only one side of a question.

 

[phil38111]

Got it in one, Phil !
I admit the thread Title doesn't convey much ...



Mate I've had a brief look at "The Case for Christ" and will most certainly pursue it further.
Initial impressions though are hardly convincing,
It seems to be a summary of the author's interviews with a dozen or so hard-core evangelicals - and nobody else !

One is rarely likely to arrive at any Truth by looking at only one side of a question.

I understand what you are saying. But these are not eveangelists but experts in their field. This is scholarly information. You can look at both sides of the argument, but a nonchristian perspective will be just as biased if not more biased then a christian one. The only difference is that the christian is held to a higher standard of morality, so I would actually trust a christian perspective more than a non christian one. But to each his own.

 

[phil38111]

Got it in one, Phil !
I admit the thread Title doesn't convey much ...



Mate I've had a brief look at "The Case for Christ" and will most certainly pursue it further.
Initial impressions though are hardly convincing,
It seems to be a summary of the author's interviews with a dozen or so hard-core evangelicals - and nobody else !

One is rarely likely to arrive at any Truth by looking at only one side of a question.

They do briefly examine both sides of the argument and tell you why they don't think the opposing view is convincing though.

 

[Angela53510]

I posted this in the other forum, before I realized you started a new thread here.

My testimony is somewhat similar to yours. Converted at a young age, in a Baptist church, then falling away when I thought "things didn't make sense." By age 20 I was an atheist, convinced there was no god anywhere.

Circumstances in my life led me to realize that maybe there was some kind of deity, after all. But which one? So many choices! I started reading the holy books of the world, and seeking out different religions. I meditated with Buddhists, danced with Sufis, studied with Bahai's, worshiped with Hindus, and even got really far out and into new age stuff like theosophy and the ascended masters. But my life was going steadily downhill, and it never seemed like I found any truth that worked for me in these different religions.

As an afterthought, I decided to read the Bible. I was 26, and there was a revival going on where I lived, with many people getting saved. But I didn't understand a word of the Bible. I would go out drinking at night, and come home and read the Bible and put circles and question marks all over the page.

Then, one night, my future husband and I were talking about all the people in the Bible that God forgave. Like David, and Peter, and Mary Magdelene. I suddenly realized that Jesus was the Saviour of the world, and he was MY Saviour, too! God spoke to me clearly and told me to repent of my sins. Drinking was a big one, and I never have had a drink in 35 years. Other things, I keep working on.

As for the Bible, I picked it up again, and it made sense. That is because I had met the author of the book. I also realized that the whole time I had been away from God, he had been standing there right behind me, waiting for me to turn around - which is the meaning of the word "repent." I know he is waiting for you to turn around too!


I am also available to talk about your doubts, please PM me anytime.

 

[crossnote]

The skeptic can hide behind debunking apologetic claims just as easily as he debunks claims of the miraculous.
Fulfilled prophecies not withstanding either. Until one comes to grips on their moral bankruptcy all else will be smoke.

 

[kodiak]

Pumicestone,
I am available to talk to you about this if you want to talk to me. I will tell you that the Bible is reliable, but the one aspect of it that I am most familiar with is the fact that the death and resurrection of Jesus as described in the Bible has a lot of evidence. There are actually secular historians, that are credited as being very reliable, that include the death of Jesus.

 

[Pumicestone]

the christian is held to a higher standard of morality

The skeptic ..... Until one comes to grips on their moral bankruptcy all else will be smoke.

Oh darn, we head off on a tangent before we even start on the reliability or otherwise of the "bible" (as we now have it).

Do you honestly believe there is no morality outside of religion ?
That there have been no agnostics or Buddhists or 'no-labels' who have selflessly, nobly and courageously devoted their lives to the service of others ?

If so, it is probably pointless going further - at least with you two.

 

[phil38111]

Oh darn, we head off on a tangent before we even start on the reliability or otherwise of the "bible" (as we now have it).

Do you honestly believe there is no morality outside of religion ?
That there have been no agnostics or Buddhists or 'no-labels' who have selflessly, nobly and courageously devoted their lives to the service of others ?

If so, it is probably pointless going further - at least with you two.

I didn't even know we were going to debate this. I just thought you were going to read the book. But ok. If you want to go there, what is the premise for your argument that the scripture is unreliable. Preferably the NT books. And give the sources for your information please. I'll wait.

 

[Pumicestone]

Well, we've got have a starting point, Phil. And it has to be one of mutual respect.

No discussion is worth entering if one party seriously believes that the other's point of view must be immoral - just because they differ.
That is simply not logical.

If I sincerely believe, and can produce evidence, of a certain concept ... I might well be wrong.
But that does not make me, or my argument immoral !

 

[phil38111]

Well, we've got have a starting point, Phil. And it has to be one of mutual respect.

No discussion is worth entering if one party seriously believes that the other's point of view must be immoral - just because they differ.
That is simply not logical.

If I sincerely believe, and can produce evidence, of a certain concept ... I might well be wrong.
But that does not make me, or my argument immoral !

I never your argument was immoral. And I never said non-beleivers were immoral. I just meant that christian scholars are held to a higher standard then non christian ones, because of their belief in Jesus. People that don't beleive in any certain deity set up their own moral compass to live by, we are guided by christ. If you know what I mean.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

OK, Pumicestone, sorry it took me so long to get over here.

May I start out by just asking you a few questions?

You've told me about coming to Christ early on, being immersed in His word, being joyful and happy in your studies. But obviously something changed. I think you said that when you were 20 or so, you started questioning.

What kind of questions came to your mind? What were your concerns about what you believed? Can you identify the point at which you stopped believing?

I ask these because I want to get to know you, perhaps understand you, become -- if not a friend -- at least someone you can trust. I have no hidden agenda. I won't question your motives or your words. Just let me know whatever you're comfortable sharing. Thanks.

-- Mike
​

 

[Pumicestone]

Phil first.
Mate, we'll have to agree to differ about Christian "scholars" being held to a higher standard.
I think the reverse is actually true.
A non-believer, an agnostic say, can be an unbiased 'seeker-after-truth' prepared to weigh up all the evidence impartially.
A Christian (or Muslim or Buddhist or whatever) "scholar" has usually come to a certain belief - and then spends years in academia striving to support that preconceived position.

A good example is the array of "scholars" involved with your recommended book.
Every single one of them, as far as I can see, is the product of some Christian college or seminary.
It is reasonable to assume that most were "Christians" before they ever entered those hallowed halls which abide no alternative thought.

On the other hand, sure, there are bitter non-Christians who are hell-bent (pardon the expression) on attacking the church and religion in general.
They are not really interested in truth. Often, they label all religionists as evil and immoral shysters.
I am not one of those unbelievers.
I accept that most Christians (Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs etc) are completely sincere and well-meaning -
just misguided.

 

[Pumicestone]

Now ..... Warrior.
The meaty stuff.

I am more than happy to relate my journey. But I am a verbose old bugger so, in advance, I urge anyone who finds it boring to simply 'scroll on by'.


Episode 1.
My parents moved around a fair bit and sent my brother and I off to the nearest protestant Sunday School every Sunday morning (usually Presbyterian or Methodist). I suspect, mainly to get us out of their hair for a while.
We became involved in church youth clubs, fetes, concerts and other activities.

From the age of about 10, bro and I were sent off to a 'Youth Camp' for 10 days or so each year.
Turns out these camps were run by really, really hardcore Evangelicals who fed us their "come and be saved" message from 6am till 10pm every day.
At 13, I succumbed. And immediately became obsessed.
Read the Bible for hours every day. Prayed on my knees for ages. Sought to 'convert' every person I met. Tried to convince my Methodist church leaders that they had to be more gung-ho.

Changed to the Baptist church which I saw as sharing my own passion and zeal.
"Rededicated" my faith at a Billy Graham crusade a few years later, 'leading my brother to the Lord' at that time.
Felt very strongly 'called' to the ministry and studied hard both at school and beyond with that ultimate end in mind.

Now, that is the background.
"Episode 2" will document what some might call 'the Fall' ...............

 

[Pumicestone]

Just thought I'd copy and paste this truism here for future reference.


" The lexicons and dictionaries of the last 300 years were written by Calvinists or Reformed theologians,
so it is natural that their own preconceived notions and even prejudices enter into their scholarship --
what they have been taught is what they will see in the texts."