The Way of Salvation and Eternal Life

[NewLifeInChrist]

I understand your point that salvation is a gift from God, given through His mercy and the work of Jesus. That is indeed beautiful and true—no one can earn salvation by their own effort. But Jesus Himself taught that following Him involves more than just faith in words; it also includes living in a way that reflects His love and obedience to God’s commands.
In the Gospels, Jesus says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). He never separated faith in Him from obedience—He invited people to trust Him and follow Him, not as a way to earn salvation, but as the natural fruit of being His disciple. The disciples also encouraged believers to live in a way that is pleasing to God, showing love, kindness, and purity of heart.
Faith is the starting point, and grace brings us into God’s family, but our actions—our obedience—are the visible proof that our hearts have been changed. Titus 3:8 supports this, reminding us to “be careful to maintain good works” because they are beneficial. It doesn’t contradict salvation by grace; it flows naturally from it. Obedience is not about earning salvation, but about living as God’s children under the guidance of the Spirit.
Following Jesus is a journey of both trusting Him fully and letting His Spirit shape our hearts so that love and obedience naturally follow. It’s a path of joy, not burden, because it shows that His work in us is real.

There are many different flavors of legalism. But they all have obedience to the law (in some form) as the cornerstone and foundation of salvation. What they all lack is the concept that the new man (which is a creation of God by Spiritual birth) is "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24). In the inward man, we are joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). This is not something we struggle to get, struggle to keep, or struggle to live up to. It is ours by birth.

Another thing they all lack is the concept that the flesh still exists after salvation and has evil desires (Rom 7). They don't understand that permanent dissolution of the flesh occurs at physical death (Ro 8). They don't understand that we are in Christ and not in the flesh (Ro 8), that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Ro 8), or that walking in the Spirit does not stop the flesh from having evil desires (Ga 5).

So, your demands for holiness and righteousnes seem to me to be just one of many forms of legalism since they include no reference to the righteousness and holiness of the new man, no understanding of the flesh, and no understanding of our lack of condemnation in Christ.

 

[vassal]

There are many different flavors of legalism. But they all have obedience to the law (in some form) as the cornerstone and foundation of salvation. What they all lack is the concept that the new man (which is a creation of God by Spiritual birth) is "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24). In the inward man, we are joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). This is not something we struggle to get, struggle to keep, or struggle to live up to. It is ours by birth.

Another thing they all lack is the concept that the flesh still exists after salvation and has evil desires (Rom 7). They don't understand that permanent dissolution of the flesh occurs at physical death (Ro 8). They don't understand that we are in Christ and not in the flesh (Ro 8), that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Ro 8), or that walking in the Spirit does not stop the flesh from having evil desires (Ga 5).

So, your demands for holiness and righteousnes seem to me to be just one of many forms of legalism since they include no reference to the righteousness and holiness of the new man, no understanding of the flesh, and no understanding of our lack of condemnation in Christ.

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NKJV)

"But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.'"​

It is GOD that demands us to be Holy. You can call Legalism if you want, but it is what God wants!

 

[pinebeach]

There are many different flavors of legalism. But they all have obedience to the law (in some form) as the cornerstone and foundation of salvation. What they all lack is the concept that the new man (which is a creation of God by Spiritual birth) is "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24). In the inward man, we are joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). This is not something we struggle to get, struggle to keep, or struggle to live up to. It is ours by birth.

Another thing they all lack is the concept that the flesh still exists after salvation and has evil desires (Rom 7). They don't understand that permanent dissolution of the flesh occurs at physical death (Ro 8). They don't understand that we are in Christ and not in the flesh (Ro 8), that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Ro 8), or that walking in the Spirit does not stop the flesh from having evil desires (Ga 5).

So, your demands for holiness and righteousnes seem to me to be just one of many forms of legalism since they include no reference to the righteousness and holiness of the new man, no understanding of the flesh, and no understanding of our lack of condemnation in Christ.

Impressive and so very straight to the point. So very well put and biblical.

 

[GWH]

This is long winded, but I hope you will read it. It will help you understand a critical aspect of salvation that you miss.

You are in part correct. What you do not understand is the difference between being born again and the salvation of the soul. I've covered this a number of times, but it's OK, I'll go over it again.

To be born again means that you have a new spirit that is born of God. God makes us alive (Colossians 2:13). That is what it means to have eternal life. If you do not have eternal life now then you are still dead in trespass and sin. Eternal life is exactly that. It is of God and so cannot die.

There is a "second salvation", which is the goal of our faith. Since "salvation" has come to mean going to heaven when you die, I prefer to use the word "deliverance". This is the gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus preached (Luke 4:18). It is a lifetime work of the Holy Spirit that is intended to transform the soul.

You will remember the wonderful passage from Isaiah 40, A voice of one calling: “Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness; make a straight highway for our God in the desert. Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill made low; the uneven ground will become smooth, and the rugged land a plain." John the Baptist declared that he was that voice.

John did not command Israelites to make a new road. It is a spiritual principle. So what does it mean?

An individual may be born again, but some attitude problems still remain (Hebrews 12:1) Often, some bondages are removed the moment we are born again. However, we ourselves retain most of the attitudes that were formed in us over our lives. And there is the natural life that indwells the soul still. This is the life that Adam had when he disobeyed God. You will recall that spiritual life was to be found in the Tree of Life. If Adam's natural life was sufficient, God would not offered him the Tree of Life.

We are programmed to live according to self-will, our own opinions, thoughts, logic, reason and feelings. Because the natural man does not know the things of God, they mostly are in opposition to God's ways. And this is what God sets out to change.

There are three areas of the soul that need changing. We need to learn to live by God's truth, not our own reason and logic. This requires the renewal of the mind. We need to know that our feelings are unreliable. So we live by principle, not feeling. And we need to know that God's will is vastly superior to our own will.

The proud are like the mountains that must be brought low. The rebellious are like the valley that must be raised up. Many Christians are unstable, up one day and down in the dumps the next. This is the "uneven ground". And some are insensitive, coarse, noisy and obnoxious. These are the rough or rugged.

Most believers suffer from these problems to at least some degree. Jesus loves us so much that he does not want to leave us in that condition.

Yes, the correct part is that salvation is not earned by doing good works, and faith in Jesus as Messiah/Christ the Lord incarnate
must be genuine and lifelong.

The problematic part is....... there IS no problematic part in that post!
Congrats, vassal! Nothing about needing to obey the Sabbath law!

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NKJV)

"But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.'"​

It is GOD that demands us to be Holy. You can call Legalism if you want, but it is what God wants!

Preaching down to people about the righteous requirements of the law without preaching that the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us because of Jesus (Rom 8:3-4) is one of the flaws of legalism. I know you don't want to address that point.

Since holy people like you are not deceptive, can you say plainly whether or not you adhere to the doctrine of sinless perfection? It's the only thing I can think of that would lead someone to the positions you hold.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Impressive and so very straight to the point. So very well put and biblical.

Thank you for the kind words. You would not believe how long it took for God to deliver me out of legalism or the bumpiness of road I've taken. But now, having been delivered and standing on the other side, I would not trade the experience for anything.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Preaching down to people about the righteous requirements of the law without preaching that the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us because of Jesus (Rom 8:3-4) is one of the flaws of legalism. I know you don't want to address that point.

Since holy people like you are not deceptive, can you say plainly whether or not you adhere to the doctrine of sinless perfection? It's the only thing I can think of that would lead someone to the positions you hold.

You're calling God's command "legalism."

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NKJV)

"But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.'

Do you realize that? Why are you trying to discourage God's child from obeying Him by saying it is legalism to do what God says??

Who should @vassal obey? You or God?

Acts 5:29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!"

 

[pinebeach]

Thank you for the kind words. You would not believe how long it took for God to deliver me out of legalism or the bumpiness of road I've taken. But now, having been delivered and standing on the other side, I would not trade the experience for anything.

Amen! I've come a long long way also. Once you are delivered from lies and those who control (satanic) you recognize it and you don't want anyone else falling into it!

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus did not say what He said in Matthew 19:17 as a trick or as an impossible test meant to drive the man to despair. Jesus answered the young ruler’s honest question with a direct and true answer. “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). Jesus did not later correct Himself or say this was not really the way to life.

What Jesus said was not meant to trick the rich young ruler, but to bring him under conviction. Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation and demonstrated that he failed to keep even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37)

If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we receive eternal life then why didn't Jesus mention that in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:39,40,47; 11:25,26?) Why didn't Peter or Paul mention that in (Acts 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13? etc..).

When the young man said he had kept the commandments from his youth; Jesus did not accuse him of lying or call him self-righteous. Instead, Jesus looked at him and loved him (Mark 10:21). This shows the man was sincere, not pretending. The problem was not that he misunderstood Jesus, but that his obedience was incomplete.

Jesus' was not concerned about calling the young man names but bringing him under conviction. The rich young ruler may have been sincere, but he was sincerely wrong. The Pharisees were also sincere, but sincerely wrong. The young man has not kept the commandments in his unbelief and Jesus exposed him. Incomplete faith results in incomplete obedience.

Jesus then pointed to the one commandment that revealed the man’s true heart. By asking him to give up his wealth and follow Him, Jesus exposed the hidden idol that still ruled him. This was not Jesus changing the requirement from obedience to “faith only.” It was Jesus showing that true obedience must be whole, not partial. Jesus did not say the man failed because he tried to obey. He failed because he would not obey fully. His wealth came before God. That is exactly what the commandments warn against. “You shall have no other gods before Me.”

You just demonstrated that you teach salvation by obedience/works. Belief/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation saves. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 3:25-26; 4:5; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Not to be confused with "faith only" in James 2:24 which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14) Learn the difference.

The man did not walk away because obedience cannot save. He walked away because he loved his riches more than God and was unwilling to let go. Jesus did not chase him and say, “Just believe and you are saved anyway.” He let him go, showing that entering life requires a heart willing to surrender everything to God.

Loving riches more than God and being unwilling to let go of those riches in exchange for eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ exposes a heart of unbelief and no surrender to God and a false claim of keeping the commandments from his youth up. Setting out to externally keep the commandments from a heart of unbelief by those who are "religious, but not right with God" is not the same as truly keeping them from a heart of belief. Only genuine believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments and demonstrate that they have come to know Him. (1 John 2:3)

Jesus later explained this lesson to His disciples by saying how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom (Matthew 19:23). The issue was trust and allegiance, not the idea that keeping God’s commandments is useless.

Our trust and allegiance must be in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6; Romans 4:5-6; 10:9,10 etc..)

So the rich young ruler did not miss Jesus’ point by trying to obey. He missed it by refusing to obey completely. Jesus taught that eternal life belongs to those who love God with all their heart and show that love by keeping His word.

The rich young ruler certainly did miss Jesus' point and ended up refusing to place his faith in Jesus for salvation and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. Jesus' statement in Matthew 19:17 should have brought conviction to the rich young ruler but instead, the young man confidently (and self-righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Does that sound familiar? Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. (John 3:18) Without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) completely or in part. Keeping His word is the demonstrative evidence of our faith and our love for God.

 

[Soyeong]

I do not understand why people who insist that salvation is through obedience to the law also claim that salvation is not by works.

The issue of whether there are works that we are required to have done first in order to become saved as the result is different from the issue of whether there are works that are part of the content the gift of being saved. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of our gift of being saved is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to become saved as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sins (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us the content of his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. Someone can’t possess the gift of salvation from sin while their life is still directed at being a doer of sin.

 

[vassal]

Preaching down to people about the righteous requirements of the law without preaching that the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us because of Jesus (Rom 8:3-4) is one of the flaws of legalism. I know you don't want to address that point.

Since holy people like you are not deceptive, can you say plainly whether or not you adhere to the doctrine of sinless perfection? It's the only thing I can think of that would lead someone to the positions you hold.

who is preaching down people here? me?
Who do you think will enter the Kingdom of Heaven? people who stubbornly disobey God, who do not want to listen to him? Does the death of Christ instantly made people righteous? Of course Not.

Did God and Jesus ever say to be Instantly be Holy? In this corrupt evil world is that truly possible to achieve perfection?

Have I said in any of my posts that I am perfect or even righteous? Certainly Not!

Now what does make it possible to progress to the Goal, eternal Life? Do you know?

No one becomes sinless the moment they believe. Jesus never taught that. He never said a person is made perfect in one instant. He spoke about a way, a walk, a life that grows day by day.

Jesus asked a simple question, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46, NKJV). This shows that calling Him Lord is not enough. Listening and obeying matters.

Does this mean we are perfect? No. Jesus knew His followers would stumble. That is why He taught mercy, repentance, and forgiveness. He said, “For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance” (Matthew 9:13, NKJV). Repentance is not a one time word. It is a change of heart and a new way of living.

Jesus explained what real growth looks like when He said, “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit” (Matthew 7:18, NKJV). Fruit does not appear in one moment. It grows over time. In the same way, obedience grows as faith grows.

John, one of the twelve, said it clearly and simply, “He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked” (1 John 2:6, NKJV). Walking means movement. Step by step. Not instant perfection.

Jesus never lowered God’s standards, but He also never crushed people. He said, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28, NKJV). This rest is not permission to disobey. It is strength to obey.

So no, this is not teaching sinless perfection. It is teaching faithful direction. A heart that listens. A life that turns away from sin. A person who falls but gets up again and keeps following Christ.

Jesus said, “He who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13, NKJV). Enduring means continuing. Learning. Obeying. Trusting God until the end.

Jesus never promised an easy path. He was honest with everyone who wanted to follow Him. He said, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me” (Matthew 16:24, NKJV). Taking up the cross means choosing God’s way over our own way, every day. It is not about being perfect, but about being willing to die to sin and live for God.

Jesus also knew that we cannot do this by our own strength. That is why He promised help from God Himself. Before leaving His disciples, He said, “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, the Spirit of truth” (John 14:16–17, NKJV).

This promise shows something very important. God does not just command us to change and leave us alone. He sends His Holy Spirit to help us change from the inside. Jesus said again, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26, NKJV).

The Holy Spirit teaches us, reminds us of Jesus’ words, and gives us strength to obey them. This is how real transformation happens. Not instantly perfect, but slowly changed. A new heart learning to love what God loves and hate what God hates.

Jesus summed it up clearly when He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15, NKJV). Love comes first, obedience follows, and the Holy Spirit makes this possible.

So the Christian life is not legalism, and it is not sinless perfection. It is a daily walk. Carrying the cross. Following Jesus. Being taught and shaped by the Holy Spirit. And pressing forward toward eternal life, just as Jesus taught.

 

[Soyeong]

Over the years I've heard numerous SDA's make that claim then turn around and deny it when you call them out on it yet they still end up teaching "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

I’m not SDA. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. It is not that I am adding law to grace, but that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey it, and it is not I am adding works to faith, but that he chose the way of faith by setting it before him.

SDA's can be very cunning! Here is an example below in blue taken from one such SDA who made that claim.

"There is another Gospel out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. The counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ."

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God’s law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on God’s law (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). So the quote is correct with the exception of narrowing down God’s law to just the Ten Commandments.

 

[Nedsk]

James 2.. is about THE faith.. not salvic faith.

The context is about how a believer uses their faith for the profit of others. That is it, not how you get eternal life, or keeping eternal life by works.

If faith alone was sufficient then why should that faith be for the "profit of others"? Why would that matter?

 

[Nedsk]

I answered that question in my post. You think those words in James applies to the salvation of our souls. This is what I said about that. The first sentence is sarcasm. The second sentence is a question that you did not answer.

Yes, James makes it clear that in order to be saved you must offer up your firstborn son as a burnt offering to God (Ja 2:21) or you must lie to the authorities concerning the whereabouts of people they are looking for (Ja 2:25) or you must meet the needs of the hungry (Ja 2:15-16). Or have you not noticed that none of those examples are about salvation?​

The second paragraph of what I wrote explains the concept correctly...

What are they about? They demonstrate that your actions speak louder than your words. If you say you believe in Jesus for the salvation of your soul, but you are working hard to secure your salvation through obedience to the law, then you have not rested from your works (Heb 4:10) and your faith looks like it's dead.​

​

You didn't respond to that either. But now is your chance.

If faith alone is sufficient then what need have I of any action? God doesn't know the depth of my conviction? Why must my "actions speak louder than words" if faith alone is sufficient for salvation? Scripture doesn't teach sola fide. Never did

 

[wattie]

If faith alone was sufficient then why should that faith be for the "profit of others"? Why would that matter?

It matters for serving Jesus thru helping others.

If we don't serve others, He will give consequences to us of discipline and rebuke, but not loss of eternal life.

 

[Nedsk]

It matters for serving Jesus thru helping others.

If we don't serve others, He will give consequences to us of discipline and rebuke, but not loss of eternal life.

Then faith alone is not sufficient

Lol what will those "consequences" be? What form will the "discipline" and "rebuke" take exactly? I can't wait to hear this.

 

[wattie]

Then faith alone is not sufficient

Lol what will those "consequences" be? What form will the "discipline" and "rebuke" take exactly? I can't wait to hear this.

Loss of church membership.. God could end your life to stop you affecting others .. could get ex communication from friends and consistent burning on your spirit

 

[Nedsk]

Loss of church membership.. God could end your life to stop you affecting others .. could get ex communication from friends and consistent burning on your spirit

Where does Scripture teach that? And what is "consistent burning of your spirit" if not hell? The unquenchable fire of Gehenna?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You're calling God's command "legalism."

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NKJV)

"But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.'

Do you realize that? Why are you trying to discourage God's child from obeying Him by saying it is legalism to do what God says??

Who should @vassal obey? You or God?

Acts 5:29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!"

I'm not calling God's command to be holy legalism. I'm saying the way he looks at it is legalistic. You may be in the same boat as him. I don't know. Maybe you can address the two points I made about legalism and its proponents, since he does not appear to want to do it. The two points I made are in this post.

 

[wattie]

Where does Scripture teach that? And what is "consistent burning of your spirit" if not hell? The unquenchable fire of Gehenna?

Process of church discipline:

Matthew 18:15-17 KJV - 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Record of God taking lives to stop their sin is with the likes of Annaias and co holding back giving to the church and with other people who's sin was affecting others.

The burning of the spirit is the conviction on the believers spirit to discontinue sin.