There will be no Rapture!!!

[Truthnightmare]

I'm having a time with that understanding also, why would God bring those with Him if we're all just going to go back where they already were.
I looked up the Strong's Lexicon and, although the first "in" as, "in the clouds" can be excluded as an adverbial phrase so it is shown to solely be describing "them" but the latter "in,' as "in the air" is mentioned as, "also in adverbial phrases' so it is possible that is referring to where the meeting is but not definitively.

Indeed, and I understand what it may look like on the surface, however when one truly evaluates the subject and object, along with definitions, the rapture theory falls apart in my opinion. You are probably familiar with the following…..
17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.
Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a). used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky​

Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.

Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek'​

This word 'clouds', as it is used here by Paul is a figure of speech, meaning a large group, used also by Paul in {Heb12:1}, supplied below for your comparison:

Heb 12:1 (Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)​

, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."
Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)​

Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: = I don't even have to tell you how the Rapturist interprets this word. But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)​

This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).​

Observe below:
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)

 

[Mem]

Indeed, and I understand what it may look like on the surface, however when one truly evaluates the subject and object, along with definitions, the rapture theory falls apart in my opinion. You are probably familiar with the following…..
17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:​

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.​

Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a). used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky​

Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.​

​

Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek'​

This word 'clouds', as it is used here by Paul is a figure of speech, meaning a large group, used also by Paul in {Heb12:1}, supplied below for your comparison:​

Heb 12:1 (Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)​

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)​

, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."​

Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:​

Rev 1:7​

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)​

Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: = I don't even have to tell you how the Rapturist interprets this word. But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)​

This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

​

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).​

Observe below:
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)

I agree, this speaks more toward the resurrection to life (or a transfiguration for those who are alive and remain) than it does toward a 'catching away.'

 

[cv5]

Indeed, and I understand what it may look like on the surface, however when one truly evaluates the subject and object, along with definitions, the rapture theory falls apart in my opinion. You are probably familiar with the following…..
17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:​

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.​

Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a). used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky​

Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.​

​

Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek'​

This word 'clouds', as it is used here by Paul is a figure of speech, meaning a large group, used also by Paul in {Heb12:1}, supplied below for your comparison:​

Heb 12:1 (Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)​

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)​

, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."​

Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:​

Rev 1:7​

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)​

Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: = I don't even have to tell you how the Rapturist interprets this word. But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)​

This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

​

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).​

Observe below:
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)

Not buying it. The Jewish wedding pattern stands as the Biblically intentional exemplar. The PRE-TRIB hapazo of the Bride is inevitable.

This newlywed couple will reside for the obligatory seven days/seven years honeymoon in the Father's house while the tribulation rages upon planet Earth.

As this happens the five wise Israelite virgins spread the Word to the "earth dwellers" that the newlywed Husband is soon returning for the wedding feast/supper WITH His bride.

 

[Truthnightmare]

I agree, this speaks more toward the resurrection to life (or a transfiguration for those who are alive and remain) than it does toward a 'catching away.'

Me too, and I'm a simple dude, so maybe

Not buying it. The Jewish wedding pattern stands as the Biblically intentional exemplar. The PRE-TRIB hapazo of the Bride is inevitable.

This newlywed couple will reside for the obligatory seven days/seven years honeymoon in the Father's house while the tribulation rages upon planet Earth.

As this happens the five wise Israelite virgins spread the Word to the "earth dwellers" that the newlywed Husband is soon returning for the wedding feast/supper WITH His bride.

With all do respect, I'm not concerned with with Jewish traditions as a precursor to understanding the Word.

As it is written…
Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[presidente]

You were focused on how many times Christ ascended to Heaven after His resurrection. It was at least two times. The first time if you recall is when He told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him. But the Bible is very clear that afterwards Christ spent 40 days on earth teaching His apostles. It is only after that that He finally ascended.

The Bible doesn't say that Jesus ascended after telling Mary Magdalene not to touch Him and came back down. That's a rather speculative interpretation. I don't see it in commentaries from those who knew Greek, either.

 

[presidente]

Not buying it. The Jewish wedding pattern stands as the Biblically intentional exemplar. The PRE-TRIB hapazo of the Bride is inevitable.

This newlywed couple will reside for the obligatory seven days/seven years honeymoon in the Father's house while the tribulation rages upon planet Earth.

As this happens the five wise Israelite virgins spread the Word to the "earth dwellers" that the newlywed Husband is soon returning for the wedding feast/supper WITH His bride.

So would you admit that your pre-trib theory is not based on the idea that the Bible teaches that Jesus is coming back before the tribulation, but rather based on Jewish culture related to the wedding feast?

 

[ewq1938]

Not buying it. The Jewish wedding pattern stands as the Biblically intentional exemplar. The PRE-TRIB hapazo of the Bride is inevitable.

In that tradition, the husband does not come twice. He comes one time for his one bride. Pretrib teaches two comings, one for the pretrib rapture and one other one. The bible speaks of one coming and one rapture and is placed after the trib not before it.

 

[cv5]

In that tradition, the husband does not come twice.

Absolutely false.

The Jewish traditional wedding has the BRIDEGROOM harpazo the BRIDE (midnight "shout") like a "theif", where he "spirits" her away for the 7 day honeymoon at the Fathers house. Where they get to "know" each other.

AFTERWARDS (after the 7 day honeymoon) the entire village (who have been informed of the harpazo-nuptials by the bridesmaids) are invited to the next phase, the WEDDING SUPPER which can last a very long time.

The Husband BRINGS the now married WIFE to the wedding feast, where all enjoy a celebration of life.

Rev 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage (SUPPER!) of the Lamb is come, and his (ALREADY MARRIED) wife hath made herself ready.

The typology is beyond irrefutable and obviously intentional.

 

[cv5]

With all do respect, I'm not concerned with with Jewish traditions as a precursor to understanding the Word.

Biggest mistake you can make.

Psa 40:7
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Jhn 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

 

[cv5]

With all do respect, I'm not concerned with with Jewish traditions as a precursor to understanding the Word.

And what do you make of this....?

Rom 11:17
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Rom 11:24
For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[cv5]

So would you admit that your pre-trib theory is not based on the idea that the Bible teaches that Jesus is coming back before the tribulation, but rather based on Jewish culture related to the wedding feast?

Paul could not be more clear: Jesus comes to harpazo His Bride the Church in a PRE-TRIB rapture.

ONLY THEN can the "man of sin" be revealed (1st seal), kicking off the 7 year tribulation......that befalls the "earth dwellers", Jew and gentile alike.

 

[ewq1938]

Absolutely false.

Nope. He still comes one time for his bride. None are left behind. That means all the Christians that live during the GT won't be married to Christ in this pseudo scenario. Only Posttrib matches the Jewish tradition where the bridegroom comes once for the entire bride and does not leave anyone behind for an imaginary second bride gathering.

 

[cv5]

With all do respect, I'm not concerned with with Jewish traditions as a precursor to understanding the Word.
.

Let me add this just to dispel any remaining doubts about the role of Israel as it relates to the Church:

Ruth makes the decision to cling to Naomi and abandon her people and gods.
Ruth (a gentile Moabitess) learns about Boaz (the kinsman redeemer) from Naomi (a Jewess).
Ruth (displaying chaste conduct) marries Boaz, from which lineage Christ is born.

Boaz = Christ
Naomi = Israel
Ruth = gentile Church

Yea......its all there friend. You ought to learn as much about the Jews and Israel as you possibly can.

 

[presidente]

Paul could not be more clear: Jesus comes to harpazo His Bride the Church in a PRE-TRIB rapture.

ONLY THEN can the "man of sin" be revealed (1st seal), kicking off the 7 year tribulation......that befalls the "earth dwellers", Jew and gentile alike.

A straightforward inyerpretation goes lije this: ling goes like this.
The Lird will come giving the church rest from tribulation and executing venvengeance on them that believe not the Gospel.

The coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him will not occur until after a great falling away, tge man of sin is revealed and declares himself that He is God.

The lawless one will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

Notice v. 1 and verse 8. Things that happen at the ccoming of the Lord-- the fathering of the church to Him and the destruction of the lawless one. Paul does not introduce tge idea of an additional parousia here. You just read it into the passage.

You invent a second return of Christ with no evidence at all from scripture to back it up and reinterpret the passage around that idea.

 

[cv5]

Nope. He still comes one time for his bride. None are left behind. That means all the Christians that live during the GT won't be married to Christ in this pseudo scenario. Only Posttrib matches the Jewish tradition where the bridegroom comes once for the entire bride and does not leave anyone behind for an imaginary second bride gathering.

Denying the clear and obvious teaching of Scripture is not a good look. Back to ignore for you.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul could not be more clear: Jesus comes to harpazo His Bride the Church in a PRE-TRIB rapture.

Which means this teaching wants Christians to take part in the apostasia which is a religious departure away from Christ. In the same passage Paul said Christ will not return until after the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin happens first. Pretrib contradicts this by placing Jesus coming before the man of sin is revealed and exactly at the timing of the Apostasy.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


Do not be confused about the return of Christ or OUR gathering to Him (the rapture), that it can happen at any moment because it will NOT happen at any moment. Paul is speaking about the Church and when Christ comes for her.

The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture states that Christ can secretly return at "any moment" yet Paul is clear to rebuke that doctrine saying not to believe anyone who claims that.


"nor by letter as from us"

Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:



1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



Paul said it was misunderstood then, and it is still being misunderstood to this very day. Pauls second letter to the Thessalonians was meant to clear up any confusion which apparently not everyone learned from.




2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Don't let anyone, even a fellow Christian deceive you otherwise! Christ's return SHALL NOT COME until the Apostasy happens FIRST. The Apostasy is when Christians stop worshipping Christ and start worshipping the antichrist. Christ will not return until that terrible thing happens, and not until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul speaks of a single return of Christ, not a two stage return. Again, Paul writes "Let no man deceive you by any means" so be sure that no man does.

 

[cv5]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

The banned guy deserves zero cred. And he is dead wrong to boot.

 

[cv5]

With all do respect, I'm not concerned with with Jewish traditions as a precursor to understanding the Word.

And before I forget, the disenfranchised dispossessed wandering Naomi has her LAND RETURNED to her through the Kinsman Redeemer Boaz.

Get it now?

 

[Underwhosewings]

Can you show me where in the Bible that it teaches that Jesus returns in the middle of the last seven years. I see the Rider on the White Horse passage toward the end of the book of Revelation. I don't see a passage where Jesus comes back in the middle of it. Where is that located, or what other scripture do you get this from?

Revelation 10:5-7 KJV
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul mentions even a former letter of his, because of a confusing statement he made concerning Christs return, the very verses that today's pre-tribbers use errantly:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

It seems you are defining the arrival [/coming] of "the day of the Lord" AS "Christ's RETURN".

That's not exactly correct.

Amos 5:18a - "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? [...]"


In 1Th5:1-3, Paul GOES ON to say, that its arrival is... "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG" that comes upon a woman.

That's what Jesus was talking about in His Olivet Discourse, where He'd referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS" (in the plural), and the INITIAL one of those is found in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 ("G5100 - tis - 'a certain one'"... bringing deception).

"The beginning of birth pangs" are the SEALS of Rev6, the first one being the rider on the white horse with a "bow" (i.e. "deception"); this corresponds with the "whose COMING / presence / arrival / parousia" (2Th2:9a) of "the man of sin" (see also v.10a's "And with..."), where even verse 4a corresponds with the description of him in Dan11:36b.

"The beginning of birth pangs [i.e. SEALS]" commence at the START of the Tribulation period, that which Rev1:1 includes as "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not things which would unfold over the course of some near-2000 years.

IOW, 1Th5:1-3 is talking about the arrival of the tribulation period, which is well before the Matthew 24:29-31 return of Christ "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (corresponding to Isaiah 27:9,12-13's "great" trumpet, gathering the elect of Israel into one place upon the earth--gathered "ONE BY ONE"--and they "shall worship the Lord in the holy mount, at Jerusalem"; that's the gathering Matt24 is covering the Subject of, at the time of Christ's "return" to the earth--"The BEGINNING of birth pangs" starting in v.4--that which Paul is talking about--comes quite a bit prior to that--starting with the arrival / coming of the man of sin "in his time"--which "arrival" is not at the same time he does the "who sitteth in the temple of God" point in the chronology, which takes place later, 2Th2:4b, when 42 mos are yet remaining).