Tongues Again???

[Stephen63]

Originally Posted by Stephen63
God's words are NOT limited to scripture, but....

oh my.....

And what will we twist THIS into, young pretzelmaker?

 

[stonesoffire]

Why?

We assemble to sing a few hymns and fellowship around the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

and there's nothing with that..

 

[stonesoffire]

Could you or would you worship apart from tongues?

See here is your misunderstanding...

 

[plainguy]

Plainguy,

That's a great passage. I believe it. I believe this one, too.

I Corinthians 14

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Speaking in tongues (languages unknown to the speaker) was a gift of the Holy Spirit. Nobody doubts or questions this. Tongues use and intended purpose was made clear on it's first appearance at pentecost. Peter explained what was happening. The non-believing Jews were hearing God's Word proclaimed to them in their own languages by those not versed in them. This was the miracle of tongues. In Corinthians, Paul was correcting and chastising a people for their childish and immature regard for and usage of this gift. Nowhere in the above is an "ecstatic utterance" referenced as the gift of tongues. And why would it ? What tongues were had already been established when this gift was first given by God at pentecost. The "mysteries" spoken of in verse 2 are not the miraculous spoken languages themselves ... but God's revelation of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah now given to both Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[stonesoffire]

1. O for a thousand tongues to sing
my great Redeemer's praise,
the glories of my God and King,
the triumphs of his grace!

2. My gracious Master and my God,
assist me to proclaim,
to spread through all the earth abroad
the honors of thy name.

3. Jesus! the name that charms our fears,
that bids our sorrows cease;
'tis music in the sinner's ears,
'tis life, and health, and peace.

4. He breaks the power of canceled sin,
he sets the prisoner free;
his blood can make the foulest clean;
his blood availed for me.

5. He speaks, and listening to his voice,
new life the dead receive;
the mournful, broken hearts rejoice,
the humble poor believe.

6. Hear him, ye deaf; his praise, ye dumb,
your loosened tongues employ;
ye blind, behold your savior come,
and leap, ye lame, for joy.

7. In Christ, your head, you then shall know,
shall feel your sins forgiven;
anticipate your heaven below,
and own that love is heaven.


We can gain even more revelation as Holy Spirit teaches about the love of God, and the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. Did you all know all about Him when first born from above? Do you understand all about heaven?

Revelation is just that...what He reveals to us as we seek Him. And we listen to Pastors for the same reason in church.

We gather together around His Word for understanding...sharing what others have seen..

Don't limit Him. He is more than logos...Word and Spirit working together.

 

[plainguy]

Today's "ecstatic utterances" are not what God's gift of tongues were. But alas, who amongst us doesn't love a "mystery" ? And this "supernatural mystery" is exactly the reason for their popularity today. They are also the easiest to fake. Much easier than actually healing a blind person or raising one from the dead. We can feel so much better about it too because we can attribute it to God. It's like having our cake and eating it too. This childlike attitude and abuse was exactly what Paul sought to correct in Corinth. And the least of the gifts to be sought after at that. Oh well ...

 

[VCO]

apparently neither of you know what the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is.
remain blind

I do! The primary function of the Holy Spirit is to take what a person has heard about Jesus Christ and plant it in the fertile soil of that person's heart (if he or she has any), thereby producing Saving Faith. If you REJECT those TRUTHS about Jesus Christ, you have blasphemed the work of the Holy Spirit, which is the only UNFORGIVABLE SIN there is. The Pharisees, even though they were eyewitnesses of some of the miracles that Jesus did, came to the conclusion that Jesus did those miracles by the power of Satan, thereby they sealed their destiny. They were doomed to be sent to Hades upon death, and the Lake of Fire (HELL) when their bodies were raised from the dead.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit has absolutely NOTHING to do with rejecting the Charismatic experience of what THEY falsely call tongues.

 

[stonesoffire]

That post I made to you Roger, was supposed to say "there's nothing wrong with that." I just caught it. Apology!

 

[BenFTW]

Today's "ecstatic utterances" are not what God's gift of tongues were. But alas, who amongst us doesn't love a "mystery" ? And this "supernatural mystery" is exactly the reason for their popularity today. They are also the easiest to fake. Much easier than actually healing a blind person or raising one from the dead. We can feel so much better about it too because we can attribute it to God. It's like having our cake and eating it too. This childlike attitude and abuse was exactly what Paul sought to correct in Corinth. And the least of the gifts to be sought after at that. Oh well ...

Its hard to fake tongues and interpretation to the degree that their operation together unfolds into prophecy, words of wisdom or a word of knowledge. In my experience with the genuine gift there have been such fruits in its operation through fellowship of the Holy Spirit and in that respect, it would be quite the feat to fake.

For example, a family member's child entered the house and I spoke in tongues to the interpreter about their sickness and the Lord said it was going around (almost like a plague, spreading). Lo and behold the next day I was with my sister in her car waiting to pick up her child from school when one of her friends came over to the car covering her mouth, keeping her distance. I knew the name of what was going around (can't remember at the moment), and I said to the friend, "Let me guess, its such and such?" She gave me a thumbs up. I only knew that because of the Holy Spirit and operating in tongues and interpretation.

I can't fake that. That is real fellowship with the Holy Spirit, who is omniscient.

 

[BenFTW]

oh my.....

Technically he is right. God's words are not limited to scripture but they are limited by scripture in that God cannot contradict Himself. God still speaks today to His children, to the body of Christ both on a personal and corporate level. He can tell you, for example, that a certain business will be shutting down soon and you better get out of that business. In this case the Lord has given you foreknowledge and wisdom that is not inside of His word yet are His words.

Just think of prayer and God giving you answers. You may be seeking wisdom over a certain circumstance or business deal and the Lord can lead you to make the right decision. His answers to specific scenarios aren't necessarily in His word, but they are nonetheless His words. God still speaks today but not in such a way as to contradict His word, the Bible. He speaks in many ways but has one voice.

 

[zone]

Today's "ecstatic utterances" are not what God's gift of tongues were. But alas, who amongst us doesn't love a "mystery" ? And this "supernatural mystery" is exactly the reason for their popularity today. They are also the easiest to fake. Much easier than actually healing a blind person or raising one from the dead. We can feel so much better about it too because we can attribute it to God. It's like having our cake and eating it too. This childlike attitude and abuse was exactly what Paul sought to correct in Corinth. And the least of the gifts to be sought after at that. Oh well ...

 

[VCO]

With genuine tongues, no one understood the speaker, and the gift of interpretation was needed to understand. Both the Acts 2 case and I Corinthians 14 case were 'genuine tongues'. You err by interpreting one passage in such a way that it contradicts the other.

What purpose did the gift of interpretation of tongues have if what you write is true?



The genuine tongues of I Corinthians 14 fit the description of what a lot of Charismatics describe. Paul says of one who speaks in tongues 'no man understandeth him'. He says that if he prays with a tongue, his spirit prays, but his understanding is unfruitful. Many Charismatics do not understand what they say in tongues.



Directed at another poster, not me. But I noticed your article took other people's alleged experiences and used them to argue against Biblical teachings on tongues.



I'd ask that about your approach also.



Rejecting all occurrences of a certain type of spiritual gift, even if they fit with a Biblical description, is not testing the spirits. Rejecting spiritual gifts w



Why don't you show your quotes from Antiquity on this. The authors referenced in the Matthew 6:7 article do not agree with your interpretation.


from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:7



Show us a quote from ancient Greek literature that proves this.



Show us a quote from ancient Greek literature that says this before proceeding with the conversation.



Here is another possibility, that you are abusing the cultural and historical approach to interpreting scripture, like homosexual apologists and many other liberals do. You see this kind of stuff all the time when someone with an agenda gets a hold of some pieces of historical information about the ancient near east. I read a blog where a man was trying to make Job and Abraham out to be Horus worshipers. He had his linguistic evidence, too, references to 'Horites' in scripture.

Here, you pick a much debated word, and try to whip up a story around it to make it be about a spiritual gift you reject.

Don't you also see the unnecessary contradiction you are creating between Christ's words and I Corinthians, where believers were speaking in tongues, in languages neither they nor the congregation understood, and an interpretation was required for others to benefit?

You really do not listen or read much of what we have been attempting to teach you, do you?

The church at Corinth included some Jews (1Cor 7:18-19), but it was largely composed of Gentile converts (1Cor 6:9-11, 1Cor 8:7, 1Cor 12:2).
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/places/related-articles/church-at-corinth.aspx

. . .
When Paul arrived in Corinth, Silas and Timothy were not with him (18:5), but he did find a couple who were Jewish refugees from Rome – Aquila and Priscilla. Aquila was a tentmaker, like Paul, and so the two worked together at their trade. This seems to have limited the time and energy Paul could devote to preaching the gospel. Every Sabbath he would go to the synagogue and seek to persuade those attending to trust in Jesus as their Messiah. When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia (18:5), they must have brought a contribution from the saints there (Philippians 4:15-16) because Paul was now able to devote himself completely to preaching the word.
Opposition to Paul’s preaching seems to have increased proportionately with the time he spent at the synagogue, and with the number of Jews and God-fearers who were coming to faith. When the Jews strongly opposed Paul’s teaching at the synagogue, he shook the dust from his garments and moved next door to the house of Titius Justus, a Gentile God-fearer, who seems to have come to faith in Jesus as the Messiah. Even so there were a number of Jewish converts, including Crispus, the president of the synagogue, who believed, along with his entire household.
As the opposition to Paul and his ministry became more intense, the apostle must have wondered when it would be time to leave Corinth and to press on to other cities. It was at this critical moment in time that God gave Paul direct guidance by means of a night vision. This vision must have been similar to the night vision God gave to Paul in Troas, when He directed him to Macedonia (Acts 16:9-10). In this “Corinthians vision,” God encouraged Paul and instructed him to remain on in Corinth:
9 The Lord said to Paul by a vision in the night, “Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent, 10 because I am with you, and no one will assault you to harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So he stayed there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them (Acts 16:9-11).
https://bible.org/seriespage/49-1-corinthians-troubled-church

Paul's ministry in Corinth STARTED in the Synagogue, when the Jews started protesting Paul's preaching in the Synagogue, Paul simply moved the beginning of the Corinthian Church NEXT DOOR to the house of Titius Justus. SO THERE CERTAINLY WERE UNBELIEVING JEWS PRESENT TO HEAR IN THEIR OWN DIALECT, whatever Paul preached in their Native Tongue, while the Translator translated for the Non-Jews that made up the majority of the Congregation.

Your theories HOLD NO WATER. With the computers of today, this kind of historic information is quite easy find, but I even found it in the Public Library decades ago, but obviously that took a lot more effort back then. So why have you not been finding this kind of historic information? My guess is because you have NEVER put your experience to the test, like I did. Therefore, because all you want to do is ASSUME your experience is of God, you have repeatedly come to the WRONG CONCLUSION.


1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (NRSV)
21 In the law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people {JEWS}; yet even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
22 Tongues, then, are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

 

[Billyd]

I'm still wondering how it is more edifying to me for the Holy Spirit to speak to me in an unknown tongue than the redneck English that I speak and understand?

When the Holy Spirit has a message for me, why would He not deliver it to me rather than by the interpretation of an unknown tongue heard by another person?

 

[BenFTW]

I'm still wondering how it is more edifying to me for the Holy Spirit to speak to me in an unknown tongue than the redneck English that I speak and understand?

When the Holy Spirit has a message for me, why would He not deliver it to me rather than by the interpretation of an unknown tongue heard by another person?

Not everyone is as sensitive to the Holy Spirit as you maybe and therefore tongues and interpretation is a more efficient manner of communication for the time being. They haven't yet learned to discern His voice or are untrained in this respect, and so for them to speak in tongues and have another interpret is the closest intimacy they can share with God. This is how it was for me.

 

[VCO]

I would love to speak on the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit " found in 1Cor . chapter 12, 13, and 4. it is long read you have posted but from what I have seen ; your out of context and your greek too. Please don't attack me I'm just saying what I see if you would like I am willing to explain why those who say (pentecostal) thier expireance is proof to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not use the bible to prove it just as it is wrong. And to say one knows what Tongues has to be spoken recorded in the book of Acts is not the tongues spoken today is wrong too. both are incorrect biblically

No, I have absolutely NO INTEREST in debating you. I post here to encourage non-charismatics to stand firm in our beliefs.

You see, I have been debating Charismatics and Pentecostals on this subject for decades ever since the early 1980's, and for at least the past 20 years or more, I HAVE HEARD NOTHING NEW IN ANY OF YOUR ARGUMENTS. In fact this verse is totally applicable to arguments coming from those caught up in the Charismatic movement, and all we can do is to agree to disagree.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and
there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[garee]

Technically he is right. God's words are not limited to scripture but they are limited by scripture in that God cannot contradict Himself.

Yes He says to not add or subtract. He could never contradict Himself.
What we had in part we now have the whole..There are no new revelations Why would person insist on having more than what God reveals? Does he inform us in a positive form to seek after signs before we can believe Him? We know he says it is a evil generation who walk after the flesh that does seek after one?

Or does he warn us of those would add... Lo, here is Christ, or there and receive a strong delusion to continual to believe the lying sign and wonder.

Personally if Satan has the authority to show the Son of man all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them without moving one inch and Christ would continue to say it is written and again it is written. why would a person seek after one .Should we not follow Christ?

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

The elect heed the warning at the end of new prophecy just like he told them before. Those who did not ,the skies the limit just believe.

 

[Billyd]

Not everyone is as sensitive to the Holy Spirit as you maybe and therefore tongues and interpretation is a more efficient manner of communication for the time being. They haven't yet learned to discern His voice or are untrained in this respect, and so for them to speak in tongues and have another interpret is the closest intimacy they can share with God. This is how it was for me.

If the message is in a language that you do not understand, how do you know that is not of Satan? How can the receiver of the message test it against the scripture, if he doesn't understand it?

 

[Billyd]

I do not question the existence of the gift of speaking in tongues. I do question the reason and manner that they are spoken.

 

[BenFTW]

If the message is in a language that you do not understand, how do you know that is not of Satan? How can the receiver of the message test it against the scripture, if he doesn't understand it?

That is all a matter of faith, discernment and knowing the Lord (and His word). The Holy Spirit exalts Christ, I have no cause for concern. In fact I asked this very question of the Lord and He said that it was possible (your concern).

However, in fellowship with the Holy Spirit I know that it is the Lord operating the gift and I trust Him. You don't always understand the message, you don't always get an interpretation. This is part of our walk of faith, trusting in God. I feel perfectly comfortable speaking in tongues because I've had enough fellowship through it with interpretation in speaking to the Lord to know that it is of God (that and scripture supports the practice).

People often speak of testing this and testing that but at some point you ought to know His voice. Some people test it so long the opportunity has passed them by. I know the gift of tongues is from God, and I know the ways in which I practice it does not offend God or go contrary to His will.

As for the reason and manner, to edify oneself and others.

 

[presidente]

Speaking in tongues (languages unknown to the speaker) was a gift of the Holy Spirit. Nobody doubts or questions this.

Hold on a second. We've got VCO in the discussion who quoted John MacArthur, whose view is that the Corinthians were speaking 'pagan tongues.'

Tongues use and intended purpose was made clear on it's first appearance at pentecost. Peter explained what was happening. The non-believing Jews were hearing God's Word proclaimed to them in their own languages by those not versed in them. This was the miracle of tongues. In Corinthians, Paul was correcting and chastising a people for their childish and immature regard for and usage of this gift. Nowhere in the above is an "ecstatic utterance" referenced as the gift of tongues.

The 'ecstatic utterance' thing is a straw man, a phrase typically used by people who don't believe in speaking in tongues... for today. Some people use it of the Corinthians. It is not a good description of speaking in tongues.What we have here in I Corinthians is speaking in tongues functioning like a lot of speaking in tongues today.

And why would it ? What tongues were had already been established when this gift was first given by God at pentecost. The "mysteries" spoken of in verse 2 are not the miraculous spoken languages themselves ...

I read the passage the same way, that what the person is speaking is mysteries. Do you know anyone who thinks otherwise?

but God's revelation of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah now given to both Jew and Gentile alike

We don't know what they said in tongues in Acts 2 except that they spoke of the marvelous works of God. Whatever was said, there was still a need for Peter to stand up and actually preach the Gospel. To say that they were preaching the gospel in tongues is conjecture. The Bible never gives any examples of someone preaching the Gospel by speaking in tongues.