Tongues

[Grace777x70]

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

 

[CS1]

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

amen that's what the bible says

 

[Grace777x70]

amen that's what the bible says

We were all in the same boat at one time or another. And we are in the same boat in all that we don't know yet but our hearts are open to the Spirit of God to reveal things to us.

 

[notuptome]

We were all in the same boat at one time or another. And we are in the same boat in all that we don't know yet but our hearts are open to the Spirit of God to reveal things to us.

You should know.

His Spirit, the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God.

How do you suppose that happens?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

You should know.

His Spirit, the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God.

How do you suppose that happens?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Divine revelation.

 

[wolfwint]

Well, now part 2

In that case, tongues is of equal value with prophecy and has the same function, “that the church may be built up”.

I am not fully agree, if there is no interpreter of the tongues it is in vain for the church!
1. Cor. 14, 2-5: For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; but in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he that prophesies speaks unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would that you all spoke with tongues, but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

You say you believe “the perfect” is the completion of Scripture. Would the Corinthians have understood this though? Was there any mention of a collection of New Testament books or a New Testament canon anywhere in the context of 1 Corinthians 13? This idea is completely foreign to the context. If there had been, and if Paul made it clear that the last book of the canon would be written in AD90, would it have been persuasive to argue: “We know that love will never end because it will last more than 35 years”?

The context requires us to understand that the perfect is the age to come. You wanted us to consider the views of the Reformers. When considering the “completed canon” argument, Calvin wrote in his commentary on 1 Corinthians, “It is stupid [sorry Wolf, his word, not mine] of people to make the whole of this discussion apply to the intervening time.”

Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones writes of another difficulty with your view: “It means that you and I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God’s truth. It means that we are altogether superior even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which ‘we know, even as also we are known’ by God. Indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense.”

I want to add, that the scholars are not unit in this view, otherwise all would came to the same conclusion. So we have at least 3 different meanings about it.

And yes, we dont have the experience and knowledge as Paul had. But he revealed what he should reveal. I dont know he knew about that what God revealed to John in revelations, but since we have the canon we have the full will from God to us. There for shure there is far more we could know like John said in his gospel, but God gave us in his word that what we need to know. We must not searching some mystik behind the scripture, ore some meaning behind the meaning. In fact, everybody who preaches the word of god, who share the word of god is a prophet. He is giving the word. And the holy Spirit is speaking into the hearts of the listener.
The Letter to the romans is without a doubt an important book about faith, but Paul did not mentioned the speaking in tongues in his list of gifts (roman 12,6-8) He was not before in Rome, like he was in Corinth before he wrote his letters. So it seems not to be such important as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement present it. Some Pentecostal groups going so far to say, that without speaking in tongues a Christian has not the Holy Spirit, means is not a Christian.

Well what we can see, is that speaking in tongues has ceased after a while. It was not used from the official church. But we found it in different groups like the Montanists (in minor Asia and Northafrica).
And when we found speaking in tongues ore prophecie in church history after the early church record, it was always connectet with sects, groups with non biblical teachings, and in the Mystik f.e..
In the newer church history we found it by the early Quakers(Edward Burrough), among Mormons; Irvingians (New apostolic church; Church of Jesus Christ of latter - day saints;
Also we find speaking in tongues as esoteric speech in greco-roman literature (sometimes called as angelic divine language)
"According to Dale B. Martin, glossolalia accorded high status in the ancient world due to its association with the divine. Alexander of Abonoteichus may have exhibited glossolalia during his episodes of prophetic ecstasy.[SUP][15][/SUP] Neoplatonist philosopher Iamblichus linked glossolalia to prophecy, writing that prophecy was divine spirit possession that "emits words which are not understood by those that utter them; for they pronounce them, as it is said, with an insane mouth (mainomenό stomati) and are wholly subservient, and entirely yield themselves to the energy of the predominating God."

Also you find speaking in tongues in paganism and shamanism, in spiritistic groups; in Hinduism (India), in voodoo(Haiti);

What then was the source of speaking in tongues in Montanism? A very big group, believing in Jesus Christ with strange teachings and false Prophets? probably exist from 170 till 4th ore 5th century. Was it the Holy Spirit who gave them the gifts of prophecy and speaking in tongues?

 

[wolfwint]

part 3

If we read other letters of Paul we find no more mention about speaking in tongues. And spiritual life of a believer was not depend on speaking in tongues for to have a deeper relationship to god, ore to be empowered for the ministry.

Ephesians 4,11- gives a list of gifts (withhout speaking of tongues)and the reason for them in Vers 12:
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

Also Ephesians 5,19 is not speaking about tongues to praise and adore the Lord:
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Also Colossians 3,16 is not speaking about tongues to correct, encourage ore to praise!
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Romans 8,15+16 shows that we have a father -child relationship with god.
"For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of adoption, by which we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

And in 8,26 we read that the Holy Spirit is translating our prayer to god:
"Likewise the Spirit also helps our weakness: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

If the speaking in tongues would be for all christians in all times. And if we know that the Holy Spirit is giving according his will. Then we have to recognice that he made a big gap in the churchhistory and he also gave this not to the reformers which foundet the base of the today denominations. If the Holy spirit is living in us then it would be easy for him to show us the importantnes of speaking in tongues and prophecie and healing, which are the base of the doctrine from pentecostals and charismatics.

And yes, i expect 100%, if somebody claims to have the gift of healing! Because it was a sign for the unbeliever that God is standing behind the gospel. And what for an witness it is if from 100 sick people which coming to get healed only 2 ore 10 got healed.
Because we found in the gospels and in book of act, that all who came to Jesus ore the Apostels got healed.
If, as one charismatic told me we have the same task as Jesus had to heal, than I expect the same result.



We need to look at the nature of New Testament prophecy though. It differed from the Old Testament variety. Old Testament prophets spoke the very words of God. New Testament prophets put impressions the Lord has given them into words. See Agabus, for example.
We need prophecy today to benefit the church, Wolf. Through it, God speaks directly into people’s specific circumstances, encouraging and comforting them.

Do we speak the word of God in the sermons, ore in the bible lessons? God is using this for to speak to us. In our situations.


You say you would expect a 100% success rate. But Agabus, who prophesied to Paul, got minor details wrong and Paul didn’t always follow the advice contained in his prophecies anyway.

I could not find anything wrong in the prophecy, which Agabus gave in Acts 21,10-11.


Not only this, but at the end of another section on spiritual gifts, Paul writes, “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:20,21). There would have been no need for this instruction if we could rely on 100% of all prophecies.

Well, I see in Vers 20 and Vers 21 2 different advises, which not must belong to each other. (KJV)

And yes, i expect 100% of a prophecy is coming true if it is from God! What for a shame for him, if it is not coming. What for a dilemma for the believer who trust to the prophecy and is not coming!
There may a be a different, but prophecy is prophecy in OT ore NT, if claimed that this given from God/Holy Spirit it has to be come true. Otherwise it is false prophecy.

And yes, i expect if the speaking of tongues is for every christian today, that we get it without long fasting prayer, because we dont find this in the bible. It was a gift which was freely given from the Holy Spirit.
But Paul himself said in 1. Corinthians 12,28-30 and shows clearly that not all are speaking in tongues.
And because of this, the doctrine is false which claimed that all christians must speaking in tongues for to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit!

And the way how this penecostal revival began in 1906 shows me that they found a spirit who gave them this gift, but i dont believe that this was the Holy Spirit.

According what we read in colossians, Ephesians and Romans, as chrsitians we dont need speaking in tongues to have a deep relationship to the father ore for to benefit the church ore ourself. What we need is to trust the Lord and to obey him! Not more!
Also we dont need prophecie (as it was a gift in the apostolic time), but the word of god to benefit and as Paul wrote in 2. Timothy 3,16-17.

This means not that the Lord is today not answer prayer for healing, this means not that the Lord can not reveal a special sigth for an certain situation. Special in mission field we recognize a special and souverain acting of god, without doubt. But this is not depending to a doctrine which we man made. And he can use every believer for that without having a special gift.

It reminds me what Jesus said, when the 70 came back from outreach in Luke 10,20:
Nevertheless in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


Well Keholet, hope have said it without any harm. I know that minimum around 600000000 christians will not agree, and for shure what i said is not perfect. But thats what i found from the word of God.
Be blessed new grandpa

 

[kohelet]

part 3

Tach Wolf,

Thanks for the reply in 3 parts. I'm wondering how you got things I'd written combined with your answers; it didn't make what you wrote particularly easy to read. Never mind, I'll work it out and reply to what you've written when I have the time. I have a home bible study tonight that I need to prepare for - it's taking all my attention right now.

Thanks again, was great to hear from you. You made some interesting points.

 

[AboundingGrace]

Isn't every healthy child born with one?

I do apologize, I'd read the op and misunderstood the actual topic, and made my quick reply and raced off,.. but in returning and reading a few posts, I now realize the topic is something entirely different from what I'd thought it to be.

 

[kohelet]

I do apologize, I'd read the op and misunderstood the actual topic, and made my quick reply and raced off,.. but in returning and reading a few posts, I now realize the topic is something entirely different from what I'd thought it to be.

Forty-three Hail Marys, a Mechthilde and a Gudrun and we'll call it quits.

 

[AboundingGrace]

Forty-three Hail Marys, a Mechthilde and a Gudrun and we'll call it quits.

Thanks for the theological advice, but I've already been counseled of the Lord concerning my mistake, I've already done an appropriate "doh", and acknowledged my shortcoming and repented to God, and it's my conviction that he also advised me to post an apology as is befitting in obedience to the scripture to love my neighbor as myself.

 

[JaumeJ]

I believe one should not attempt to guide anyone to speak tngues.

Tongues, like healing, teaching, etc. is a gift imparted by God by His Holy Spirit.

As is written, tongues in itself is nothing if the speaker does not possess the gift of love. Without love tongues is just noise.

I do believe all the gifts cited in the Bible will be with us until the end of this age when all bur faith, hope and love will no longer be necessary.

Someone once asked me why anyone would need faith and hope after this age. If you think about it, it is blaringly obvious. Our faith and hope will always be our blessed God. This is a good meditation for any who wonder on the subject.

I love that people believe and use the gifts of the Holy Spirit always.

Praise our blessed Savior, Jesus Christ, amen....

How would you guide someone to have a tongue?

 

[bikerchaz]

I believe one should not attempt to guide anyone to speak tngues.

Tongues, like healing, teaching, etc. is a gift imparted by God by His Holy Spirit.

As is written, tongues in itself is nothing if the speaker does not possess the gift of love. Without love tongues is just noise.

I do believe all the gifts cited in the Bible will be with us until the end of this age when all bur faith, hope and love will no longer be necessary.

Someone once asked me why anyone would need faith and hope after this age. If you think about it, it is blaringly obvious. Our faith and hope will always be our blessed God. This is a good meditation for any who wonder on the subject.

I love that people believe and use the gifts of the Holy Spirit always.

Praise our blessed Savior, Jesus Christ, amen....

Thank you.

 

[kohelet]

Thank you.

Hi Bikerchaz,

I was reading a blog by Ben Witherington, the New Testament theologian at Asbury Seminary, this afternoon, where he explains how he received the gift of tongues (here: Ben Witherington: Here Come the Pentecostals). A really interesting read.

 

[garee]

In that case, tongues is of equal value with prophecy and has the same function, “that the church may be built up”.yes tongues is one of the many manners the Holy Spirit did bring new revelation.

Yes did bring past tense.This is up until the last revelation was given .The possibility of a new revelation today has no merit. We have his perfect will now that he has sealed up the possibility of adding to it in any manner to include a tongue.

I am not fully agree, if there is no interpreter of the tongues it is in vain for the church!
1. Cor. 14, 2-5: For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; but in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he that prophesies speaks unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would that you all spoke with tongues, but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Yes the Holy Spirit is the interpreter after any manner to includes tongues.When Peter spoke the Holy Spirit intepretes what he wanted the others to understand (the gospel)

You say you believe “the perfect” is the completion of Scripture. Would the Corinthians have understood this though? Was there any mention of a collection of New Testament books or a New Testament canon anywhere in the context of 1 Corinthians 13?

Men had no way of knowing which revelation, would be the last before he sealed up the possibility of adding another word ,jot or tittle to his now perfect law .

This idea is completely foreign to the context. If there had been, and if Paul made it clear that the last book of the canon would be written in AD90, would it have been persuasive to argue: “We know that love will never end because it will last more than 35 years”?

His love is known according to the existing revelation, the Bible. there is no law missing by which we could know more of His love other than that which he has revealed in the scriptures. What men knew in part up until the last chapter(Revelation) We now have the whole or perfect.

Remember even when Paul was speaking as that which did become scripture. The Holy Spirit would move the hearers to study to see if what Paul was saying was inspired according to God’s interpretation, the Bible to us.

The idea of having the faith that comes from hearing God in respect to Paul or any man simply shows blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has occurred . According to the first commandment we are to have no gods before our living God and it includes making the apostles as gods in the likeness of men .

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This shows it was not after Paul's private interpretation, as a personal commentary according to his own will.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[wolfwint]

Hi Bikerchaz,

I was reading a blog by Ben Witherington, the New Testament theologian at Asbury Seminary, this afternoon, where he explains how he received the gift of tongues (here: Ben Witherington: Here Come the Pentecostals). A really interesting read.

Sorry i am not bikerchaz. , Yes its an interesting reading, but still for me is the question, why not all christians recieving the gifts according pentecostal doctrine. Whats about the christians, lets say, before 1906? Whats with the denominations ( i speak from germany) which prooved this in 1907-09 and came to the conclusion its an different spirit. Where there all wrong?
Dont they had the Holy Spirit who could agree with the revival in Azusa Street? Can the Holy Spirit teach against himself?
You know my problem? man can found different denominations, but the Holy Spirit is not working differnt, according the denominations. I read not in bible for fasting prayer to getting the gifts. Its given freely and without doing anything to got them.

 

[notuptome]

Divine revelation.

That would of necessity produce a homologous understanding of the scriptures. One Holy Spirit, one Savior Christ and one revealed word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

I believe one should not attempt to guide anyone to speak tngues.

Tongues, like healing, teaching, etc. is a gift imparted by God by His Holy Spirit.

As is written, tongues in itself is nothing if the speaker does not possess the gift of love. Without love tongues is just noise.

I do believe all the gifts cited in the Bible will be with us until the end of this age when all bur faith, hope and love will no longer be necessary.

Someone once asked me why anyone would need faith and hope after this age. If you think about it, it is blaringly obvious. Our faith and hope will always be our blessed God. This is a good meditation for any who wonder on the subject.

I love that people believe and use the gifts of the Holy Spirit always.

Praise our blessed Savior, Jesus Christ, amen....

I believe it is biblical to pray for people to receive that gift as indicated in the book of Acts

however, pounding on folks and telling them to just start making sounds is not a good route to follow

I was by myself when I received that gift, after reading a book about a couple who had been introduced to the possibility of the the gifts of the spirit still being in operation, and so they sought God and received

Pretty much the same in my case...I was raised in a church that denied all of it...said it had ceased and died with the Apostles..however, for some strange reason, LOL!...God kept baptizing folks in that church and sending speakers who testified to the reality of the Holy Spirit still operating in dispensing the gifts

You have to ask questions, IMO, when you see such conflicts and ask yourself why and above all else, seek God who does not hand out stones when someone asks Him for bread...

 

[ember]

Yes did bring past tense.This is up until the last revelation was given .The possibility of a new revelation today has no merit. We have his perfect will now that he has sealed up the possibility of adding to it in any manner to include a tongue.



Yes the Holy Spirit is the interpreter after any manner to includes tongues.When Peter spoke the Holy Spirit intepretes what he wanted the others to understand (the gospel)



Men had no way of knowing which revelation, would be the last before he sealed up the possibility of adding another word ,jot or tittle to his now perfect law .



His love is known according to the existing revelation, the Bible. there is no law missing by which we could know more of His love other than that which he has revealed in the scriptures. What men knew in part up until the last chapter(Revelation) We now have the whole or perfect.

Remember even when Paul was speaking as that which did become scripture. The Holy Spirit would move the hearers to study to see if what Paul was saying was inspired according to God’s interpretation, the Bible to us.

The idea of having the faith that comes from hearing God in respect to Paul or any man simply shows blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has occurred . According to the first commandment we are to have no gods before our living God and it includes making the apostles as gods in the likeness of men .

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This shows it was not after Paul's private interpretation, as a personal commentary according to his own will.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Hi...would you kindly explain what you mean by the sentence I have highlighted above? I'm not understanding what you are saying. Thanks

 

[angel2u2]

The way I understand it is that angels that have not left there first place of habitation are not subject to salvation as the result of the language or tongue of the gospel .There is no believing God unto salvation.

They long to look into the language but are not given the understanding.

They bring the word as messengers and look to the cause and effect but have nothing to do with the power or authority of it .

Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 1Co 11:9

Paul is speaking hypothetically....... as in, if he was God he could speak the tongues of men and of angels but if he lacked love we would know it was not of God.

lots of people think tongues of angels means angelic languages. but if that were true it would mean that tongues of men would mean human languages. But angels all speak God language. So,tongues of angels means angels speaking tongues. I've seen this.