Total Depravity
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You seem to be calling the idea that history was not as real to God before He began creating "an overreach of anthropomorphism"; in other words, a ridiculous idea. You seem to be implying that history has always been as real to God before He began creating as it is to Him as it is happening in real time.
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time has a beginning.
God does not.
God does not.
2 Timothy 1:8-11
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, [who] has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
The scope of God's knowledge far exceeds our human capacity ... so no, I am not "ascribing to God a knowledge that is the same kind as human knowledge". Even in eternity when we know even as also we are known, God's omniscience will far exceed our capacity for knowing. God is the Creator ... we are the created. We can't create anything ... all we can do is manipulate that which has already been created by God ... and then pat ourselves on the back and claim we "created" something.
I don't know that Job is talking about God in Job 16:9-14 ... Job said He teareth me in his wrath, who hateth me: he gnasheth upon me with his teeth; mine enemy sharpeneth his eyes upon me.
Job is talking about someone who hates him ... someone who is his enemy.
in vs 11, Job stated that God had delivered him to the ungodly and turned him over to the wicked ... it is the ungodly and the wicked who attacked Job and Job is correct in his assertion.
Look at what Job says in vs 17 ... my prayer is pure ... and in vs 20 ... mine eye poureth out tears unto God. Job looked for a Mediator Who would plead for him before God ... O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour! (Job 16:21).
I do not see any indication that Job ever considered God his enemy ... or that Job believed God hated him.
In chapter 9, Job responded to Bildad who believed that Job had sinned and had done something deserving of God's judgment. Job declared that man cannot contend with God and prosper (vs 3). Job said in vs 13-14, If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him. How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?. Job knew he had not sinned, yet this calamity had come upon him. In vs 20, Job stated If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse. In vs 34, Job said Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me.
We find ourselves in the same predicament in our day and time. When the adversary attacks us, do we blame God? ... or do we stand steadfast in faith, drawing near to God, knowing that He will see us through. Eventually the adversary will leave and as we endure the trial, hopefully we realize that we are never alone in our affliction and the whole time God is working something in us that benefits us ... something eternal that can never be taken away. What do we learn in our trials and afflictions?
Job was responding to his friends who claimed that Job had to have some secret sin he was hiding (Job 8:6) and that his children had sinned against God (Job 8:4) ... here is what Bildad said God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers (Job 8:20).
His friends claimed that those who are righteous and good always prosper, and that those who forsake God perish. Job told his friends that both wicked and the righteous prosper, and both wicked and the righteous are greatly afflicted.
Job did not name "God an amoral tyrant who destroys everyone regardless of moral character". Here is what Job said This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked. If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent (Job 9:22-23).
If and when calamity strikes ... a natural phenomenon (tornado, hurricane, tsunami, earthquake, etc., etc.) ... believers and nonbelievers alike are "destroyed" ... some lose their lives, some lose their homes and/or businesses, some lose their possessions. Job points out that God does not always intervene. God does not come to the rescue of either the perfect or the wicked. That is God's prerogative and who are we to claim that God is "an amoral tyrant" if He does not intervene?
In vs 24, Job said The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
These words are just as true today as they were when Job spoke them. The wicked rule the earth ... those who judge side with the wicked ... and God allows this to take place.
You are free to believe these circumstances make God "an amoral tyrant" and that God "deliberately frustrates the execution of justice".
I do not believe as you do ... and I do not believe Job did either.
I do not believe your source fully comprehends Job's responses to his friends.
Look at what Job said in chapter 13:
Job 13:
4 But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value.
5 O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.
6 Hear now my reasoning, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips.
7 Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?
8 Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?
9 Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?
10 He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.
11 Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?
Your source speaks wickedly and deceitfully of God and you should step away from repeating the error.
And if you did not understand your source is in error, hopefully you will take the time to read through Job so that you understand exactly what Job believed ... because it appears to me your source either did not take the time to read or did not understand.
Here is what God said about Job:
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Eliphaz and his friends had not spoken truth about God as Job had.
Do you know why the magi had travelled to see the King of the Jews? They had seen signs in the heavens. Go all the way back in Genesis 1:14:
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years
The magi saw the sign God had placed in the heavens and came to see the King of the Jews.
Even the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem was fulfillment of prophecy (Micah 5:2). Joseph and Mary did not reside in Bethlehem before the birth of Jesus. They resided in Nazareth (Luke 2:4) and traveled to Bethlehem late in Mary's pregnancy because of the decree of Augustus (Luke 2:1).
Bethlehem = house of bread ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the bread from heaven (John 6:32-35).
Again, the scope of God's knowledge far exceeds our human capacity.
God is not limited. We are limited. The limited will never be able to comprehend the limitless. Sometimes God pulls back the curtain of our limited understanding ... as in the case of Paul ... and even Paul described himself as not being able put into words what was revealed to him.
When God told Cain that if he did well, he would be accepted ... that sin was crouching at the door but Cain could rule over sin ... yet Cain chose not to do well and be accepted, allowed sin to rule over him, and went out and murdered Abel ... who was culpable for Abel having been slain?
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PaulThomson said:
You seem to be calling the idea that history was not as real to God before He began creating "an overreach of anthropomorphism"; in other words, a ridiculous idea. You seem to be implying that history has always been as real to God before He began creating as it is to Him as it is happening in real time.
So, this theory of yours means that you and all of creation is co-eternal with God. Unless you can give some rational explanation for your always being a real to God as you are right now, but you not always being real to God, you are arguing contrary to the law of non-contradiction.
You seem to be calling the idea that history was not as real to God before He began creating "an overreach of anthropomorphism"; in other words, a ridiculous idea. You seem to be implying that history has always been as real to God before He began creating as it is to Him as it is happening in real time.
So, this theory of yours means that you and all of creation is co-eternal with God. Unless you can give some rational explanation for your always being a real to God as you are right now, but you not always being real to God, you are arguing contrary to the law of non-contradiction.
You should be of the same opinion. God saw everything even BEFORE He created anything. For our puny minds, that is incomprehensible. But for God it is nothing. If humanly built computers, operating systems, and programs can store so much information, then think about what God is capable of. But if you choose to be stuck in a rut of your own making, no one will stop you.
You are making a claim the the reality we are experiencing now was as real to God eternally before creation as it is to God right now; along with a contradictory claim that we and history are not co-eternal with God. So, no, I don't believe that both your claims can be true, when neither logic nor the Bible agree with you. If you cannot explain how your claims are mutually coherent, there is no reason that anyone "should be of the same opinion" as you on this.
Proverbs 1:
1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
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1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
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Elihu is the only one whom God does not rebuke for speaking falsely. It is a big mistake to assume that anything said by Job and His three friends are Holy Spirit inspired, apart from Job's final confession of repentance, about which God says that Job alone had spoken rightly. There is no record of the other three friends confessing folly and repentance as Job did.
History is eternal. For when we are with God He can give us the greatest history lessons by sending us to the time something happened for our study and edification. No more fake news.
Just being alive in our resurrection bodies will be our entertainment channel!
Its going to be greater than we can dream or imagine!!!
grace and peace ...............
Just being alive in our resurrection bodies will be our entertainment channel!
Its going to be greater than we can dream or imagine!!!
grace and peace ...............
