Well i dont know what you are but I am not a "Oneness Pentacostal" but I believe in the Bible and that doesn't prove the trinity and yes that is the second dumbest chart everYou sound like a Oneness Pentecostal.
EDIT:
In another thought, I think this is the dumbest chart ever.
TRINITY IS A FALSE TEACHING.
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God isn't a thing the Holy Spirit is God is God and the comforter that Jesus talks about is the Holy Spirit so your saying that a person is the only thing that comforts you, wow idk but a thing can comfort me.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
lol, your joking right?
And is there a reason you are screening? is the truth upsetting you?
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Saying God is a thing, and not a being with conscious thought, and all the glory which goes with him, In which you were created in the image of. Is an insult.
I am sure the HS doe snot like being called a thing. Then again Thank God he forgives even this.
Nowhere in the original languages is God called "sovereign", but it is presented throughout Scripture.
The NT states that Jesus is God:
1) In Mt 3:3; Mk1:7-8; Lk 3:16; Jn 1:29-34, Jesus is the YHWH of Isa 40:3.
2) In Ro 10:9, 13-16, Jesus is the YHWH of Joel 2:32.
3) In Heb 1:6, Jesus is the YHWH of Dt 32:43.
4) In Lk 1:67-68, 76, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zechariah.
5) In Lk 1:41-43, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Elizabeth.
6) In Eph 4:8-9, Jesus is the LORD GOD (YHWH) of Ps 68:18.
7) In Jn 19:37, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Zec 12:8-10.
8) In Lk 4:18-21.,. Jesus is the LORD (YHWH) of Isa 61:8
9) In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus is the LORD (YHWH), the First and Last of Isa 44:6, 48:12.
10) In Rev 22:13-16, Jesus is the LORD GOD, the Alpha and the Omega of Rev 21:6-7.
11) In Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39; Rev 20:11-13, Jesus is God on the Throne of Rev 21:5, 7.
12) In Jn 1:3, 10; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 10, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge 1:1; Isa 44:24; Jer 10:16.
The NT states that the Holy Spirit is both a person and God:
1) Jesus, whom the NT shows to be God (above), said the Holy Spirit proceeded from
(came forth from, out of) God just as he did per Jn 15:26.
2) Jesus, who is God, said the Holy Spirit was another Comforter like himself (God) per Jn 14:16-17,
25-26, 15:26, 16:7.
3) The NT refers to the Holy Spirit with
personal pronouns (he),
personal titles (Comforter) and
personal functions (intelligence, will, speaking, deciding, forbidding, testifying, searching into secrets,
showing the future, sending out missionaries, interceding),
because he is a person.
Jesus presents the Triune God:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Mt 28:19)
The NT presents Father, Son and Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus.
"At that moment heaven was opened, and Jesus saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Father speaking.)
Scripture presents three separate persons in the one being of God.
You've got some reckoning to do with the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2), through the writers of the NT, in which light all Scripture is to be understood.
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Graybeard
Guest
Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull
He did not? Then how could he plainly state, before abraham was, He existed? Did jesus lie?
have you read The Bible??...
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The_highwayman
Guest
GOD the Father is not a person either.
John 4.24 Jesus said to the woman at the well:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
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danschance
Guest
I for one would be happy to see this thread die. Please let this thread die by no longer posting on it.
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GraceBeUntoYou
Guest
Section I: Etymytology of Pneuma
Words have their meanings in the contexts of their uses, and these meanings can vary from one place to another. To get a sense for how a word is typically used, one must survey all of the occurrences of that word, at least in a large enough body of literature and with enough occurrences to warrant viewing the selection as representative.
The word pneuma occurs 379 times in the Greek NT. Of these, approximately 258 occurrences are used in reference to the Holy Spirit. In one text God the Father is described as pneuma (“God is pneuma,” John 4.24) and in one text the risen Christ is (“became a life-giving pneuma,” 1 Corinthians 15.45). Obviously, God the Father and Jesus Christ are both persons, not impersonal forces or abstract attributes. About 61 occurrences refer to demons or angels or other unspecified supernatural beings, including 22 references specifically to “unclean spirits” alone. About 40 texts use the word in an anthropological context, i.e., referring to the inner person or invisible aspect of human beings (“my spirit,” “spirit and body,” etc.). These include two likely references to the spirits of departed human beings awaiting the final resurrection (Hebrews 12.9, 23). The remaining 18 or so texts use the word “spirit” in reference to the attitude or disposition of individuals or groups of people.
The foregoing survey of NT usage of pneuma reveals just how shallow the anti-Trinitarian argument is. In actual usage the notions of breath or wind have receded to the background of the word pneuma; in fact, the word can never be translated “breath” or “wind” except where the word is used in symbolic imagery in reference to demons or deity (John 3.8; 2 Thessalonians 2.8; Revelation 13.15). Nor does pneuma ever have the meaning of an impersonal force or energy or of the abstract attribute of power. Instead we find that pneuma is used in reference to God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, demonic spirits, angels, et al.
In NT usage it most often refers to persons, not to impersonal forces or abstractions.
Section II: Neuter Pronouns (“It,” “He”)
The objection can be answered in several ways, but I simply wish to focus directly on the crucial premise of the objection, which is that the use of neuter pronouns (“it”) signals an impersonal object or abstraction as the pronoun’s referent. The claim is simply and unequivocally false. For the sake of those with little or no knowledge of the biblical languages, I will explain the matter as simply and completely as possible. Fortunately, it’s really not complicated.
Greek uses a system of three genders (nouns, pronouns, adjectives), and other words that modify or refer grammatically to nouns. The three genders are labeled in the modern study of ancient Greek as masculine, feminine, and neuter. These genders are typically marked by distinctly patterns of spellings of the words, especially the endings of the words. When we transliterate these Greek words, we can see these differing spellings corresponding to the three genders. For instance, the pronoun autos, usually translated “he,” is masculine in form, like the Greek nouns ophthalmos (“eye”) and adelphos (“brother”). Notice that they all have the same ending, -os. Not all masculine subject nouns have this ending, but it is the most common. The pronoun aute, usually translated “she,” is feminine in form, like the Greek nouns zoe (“life”) and adelphe (“sister”). Again, one can see a common ending, though as with the masculine other endings occur with other words having a feminine gender. The pronoun auto (Romans 8.16), usually translated “it,” is neuter in form, like the Greek nouns onoma (“name”) and paidion (“child”). Here one can see two of the most common ending forms for neuter nouns in the subject form: -ma (pneuma, onoma, sperma) and –on (paidion, euangelion, xulon).
If you hadn’t already noticed, all three grammatical genders can be used in reference to persons and to non-persons. For example, the nouns adelphos, adelphe, and paidion all normally and literally refer to persons (brother, sister, child), while the nouns ophthalmos, zoe, and onoma all normally and literally refer to non-persons, whether things or abstractions (eye, life, and name). This information leads to the following conclusion: grammatical gender does not indicate personhood or non-personhood; it doesn’t equate to biological gender even though it often coincides with it. A noun’s grammatical gender may coincide with the biological gender of the object to which the noun refers, but it need not do so and often does not do so. Nor does the grammatical gender of a noun indicate whether the object to which the noun refers is a person or not. It is the meaning of the noun itself especially as used in context—not its grammatical gender—that informs the reader as to whether it is referring to a person or to something impersonal.
An easy and noncontroversial example of a neuter noun that normally and literally refers to a person is the Greek noun paidion, “child.” The noun occurs 52 times in the Greek NT (168 occurrences in the LXX). The fact that it is neuter has absolutely nothing to do with whether it refers to a person. One can in no way infer that a child is not a person, or even that it might not be a person, from the fact that the Greek noun paidion happens to be neuter. Jesus is called a paidion eleven times in the NT (Matthew 2.8, 9, 11, 13 [2x], 14, 20 [2x]; Luke 2:17, 27, 40), all in reference to the period of several years after his birth.
Likewise, pronouns that are neuter which refer back to neuter nouns like paidion do not imply that its referent is impersonal. The pronoun is grammatically neuter to agree in grammatical form with the noun that is its antecedent. From the fact that a neuter pronoun is used in reference to a neuter noun one can conclude only that the writer was following normal grammatical agreement. Example, Matthew uses the masculine pronoun auto (i.e., Romans 8.16) in reference to “the child” Jesus: “Rise, take the child [paidion] and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him” (Matthew 2.13, ESV). Here the ESV uses “him” to translate the Greek pronoun auto (as does the KJV also). Luke uses the same pronoun auto in reference to Jesus as paidion twice (Luke 2.28, 40).
In Romans 8.16, and in other such texts, the use of the neuter pronoun auto to refer to the Spirit tells the reader absolutely nothing about whether the Spirit is a person, a force, or an abstraction. That isn’t the pronoun’s job. The pronoun is simply agreeing grammatically with the grammatical gender of the noun pneuma, which happens to be grammatically neuter. Grammatical gender also tells us nothing about the personal status of the object to which the noun refers. So the objection from neuter pronouns against the personhood of the Holy Spirit fails. It is a bad argument because it misunderstands something very basic about the Greek language—something any first-semester student of Greek should know.
Section III: "Poured Out," and "Filled"
In the Epistle to the Ephesians, the Apostle Paul, who speaks of being “filled with the Spirit” (Ephesians 5.18), just two chapters prior, says that we are to be “filled up to all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3.19), and that Christ, “He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things” (Ephesians 4.10). To be “poured out” is a common idiom, a vernacular method of speaking which means to give of oneself entirely, and so it is said that even people can be “poured out,” see Psalm 22.14; Isaiah 53.12; Philippians 2.17; 2 Timothy 4.6.
In the dialogue between Peter and Ananias, Peter asks, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit... ?” The word “filled” here is the same word Luke uses in the Book of Acts to express being “filled” with the Holy Spirit. In Acts 4.8 and 4.31, Peter is presented as a man who is “filled with the Spirit,” in perfect contrast to Ananias whom Satan had “filled” to speak a lie (Acts 5.3). The Holy Spirit, like Satan, is an unseen figure who participates in the narrative; both are very real, personal spirits that seek to “fill” people to some end, either for truth, or for lies.
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Eva1218
Guest
True the word Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible but the word Godhead is which means the same thing.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
I pray this helps and is received.
Blessings!!!!!!!
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
I pray this helps and is received.
Blessings!!!!!!!
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Kerry
Guest
People get to reading that new idiot version and come to these conclusions. I wish that we could ban it. If you read the KJ, the trinity is a clear picture.
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Richie_2uk
Guest
1 John 5: 7-8 explains the meaning of the trinity. though it dont say the word TRINITY. But the meaning of the verse means the trinity.
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st_sebastian
Guest
I wasn't talking about the use of the neuter in Greek. I was talking about the use of the neuter in English by people who might be expressing their own opinions on the personhood of the Holy Spirit. If I had made the argument that the article purports to refute, I would respond differently. I didn't.
Do you ever get the feeling that people aren't reading what you're typing, but are responding to what they wish you were typing, because they had an argument up their sleeve? That's what's going on here. I'm not saying the Holy Spirit is an impersonal thing and I'm certainly not saying it because the Greek uses the neuter. I'm saying that when someone asks if the Holy Spirit is God or Satan, there are choices in-between. For example, some people believe it's an impersonal force, as demonstrated by their use of the ENGLISH neuter.
I suspect it's not worthwhile to try to communicate anything but thumbs up or thumbs down in controversial threads. You'll just get copy-pasted into oblivion about arguments that you didn't make.
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GraceBeUntoYou
Guest
Absolutely zero Trinitarians are Modalist. In fact, to call a Trinitarian modalistic is contradictory, because Modalism is a form of Unitarianism (not Trinitarianism). Do you understand the difference between the two?
The number of passages is really quite irrelevant; though, I would even argue quite the opposite.
In the initial post, texascowgirl cites several references that utilize prepositions of the Father ("from whom all things exist"), and the Son ("through whom all things exist"). However, these prepositions do not help her case at all. The use of these prepositions ("for," "in," "through," "from") express typical Jewish monotheistic thought that God used no one else to carry out his work of creation. Thus, the author of Hebrews can speak of Christ as YHWH (Hebrews 1.10-12), because of His role in this exclusively divine work of creation (Hebrews 1.2 [c.f. Hebrews 2.10]) as instrumental cause.
The language of “founding” (Job 38.4; Ps 8.3, 24.1-2, 78.69, 89.11, 104.5, 119.90; Prov 3.19, 8.29; Isa 40.21, 48.13, 51.13-16; Amos 9.6; Zech 12.1), as well is “the work of your [God's] hands” (Ps 8.6; Isa 64.8) is standard biblical rhetoric for God’s work as Creator, and more broadly of all that God does (Ps 28.5, 92.4, 111.7, 138.8, 143.5), and yet here at Hebrews 1.10, this exact language is used of none other than Christ.
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Kerry
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Kerry
Guest
But who did He pray to? The father. wait thats two. Then in Genesis the Holy Spirit was over the face of the deep. Wait that three. we are created in the image of God. Wait, we have a spirit, a mind, and a body. Wow thats three also.
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Kia123
Guest
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- Webster's Bible
- Webster's Bible
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st_sebastian
Guest
For what it's worth, since you're insulting an argument I didn't make (assuming you typed this and didn't just lazily steal it without attribution - are you Rand Paul?), my Greek teacher's name was Rufus Davis and I got an A in all three semesters of Ancient. They didn't offer Koine. If you want to ask him if I know the function of the genders in Greek and how they don't correspond to English genders then yes, he considered that fairly important.