TRINITY IS A FALSE TEACHING.

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I think you are on to something with this line of thought. Many Christian countries in past centuries (before the Reformation) banned publishing the Bible in the vernacular. The Catholic Church was concerned that free access to scripture at the public level would lead to a plethora of new heresies. They were right. According to the Oxford World Christian Encyclpedia (1982) there were at that time an estimated 22,190 distinct Protestant denominations, and the number was still growing.

Dan Barker, former evangelical preacher turned atheist, noted that his decline in faith began with his encountering numerous congregations with contradictory views.


It's a false impression that non-believers are unfamiliar with scripture. Some are very knowledgeable.


I don't recall any instance of someone becoming an atheist because they were disappointed in Christian behaviour. Christian behaviour, whether good or bad, has no bearing on the accuracy of scripture.

When I first read this, I was a bit speculative of the number. This number which you have proposed is actually a number postulated from Roman Catholic resources, which is the alleged number of “denominations” that the Protestant Reformation has given birth to. This number has gone from 22,190 all the way up to 41,000, and with each Roman Catholic you ask, the number only continues to swell.

The 22,190 figure does not reflect “Protestant denominations,” but is actually a future projection of all denominations, including all 200+ Roman Catholic denominations which can be broken down even further to a more precise number of around 3,000 Roman Catholic denominations. Writing in 1982, the author cites a figure of 20,780 denominations in 1980 with an increase of approximately 270 denominations per year over a five year span. Thus, the 22,190 figure is a estimate of how many "denominations" there would have been in 1985. Of this figure, just over 8,000 actually reflect “Protestant denominations.” This statistic also takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries, so there is an overlapping of many denominations.

A more precise account can be shown at the following:

33,000 Denominations | Alpha and Omega Ministries
The 33,000 (Woops, Now 36,000) Denominations Lie Exposed…Again | Alpha and Omega Ministries
30,000 Protestant Denominations? - Debate Table - Phorum

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Well, for one thing, John reported also that Jesus said the following: "for the Father is greater than I.... I love the Father, and do exactly as he commands..." (John 14:28-31).

Jesus (if these are his words) at least at this time, appears not to see himself as God.

I think it is important that the Trinity is not mentioned in scripture. You would think this all important doctrine would be mentioned somewhere in the New Testament. It, after all, is so central today. I think the fact it was not mentioned may mean it was not always central to Christian understanding. Historically, the first mention of the Trinity is in the 2nd century. There was considerable controversy with not all Christians accepting the (new?) doctrine. It has a complex history with its final formalization in the 4th century. Someone like myself has to wonder why, if the doctrine was central to the understanding of Jesus' original followers, it was not more clearly stated.

I have a question. Does the idea of the Trinity arise primarily, or exclusively, with John, or are there important references to it in the Synoptics as well?

I've pointed this out before, and I will do it again,

Though μείζων (meizon, "greater") has various meanings behind it (“a greater degree,” “more,” “position of greater status, dignity, and authority”) it’s noticeably pressing that John never utilizes this term to denote an ontological inferiority or ontological superiority. Just sixteen verses earlier (John 14.12), Christ not only says that the disciples will be doing the works that He had been doing, but they'll wind up doing greater (meizon) works than He. This does not mean the disciples will be doing qualitatively superior works, for they simply will not be doing “better” works than He. Here the term simply refers to the quantity of miracles. The disciples will be doing more miracles than Jesus had done, while performing the same kind of miracles as Jesus while He was on earth ("whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing") -- the same works, but a greater number. Quantity, not quality.

With this in mind, Jesus is not indicating that He is ontologically inferior to the Father, but is indicating that the Father is "greater" because the Father's position in Heaven is one of greater dignity and authority than the Son occupies on earth, and this meaning, then, makes clear why the disciples should rejoice. The Son is returning to the right hand of the Father, to the glory He had with the Father before His existence on earth (John 17.5). He had voluntarily humbled Himself in the incarnation (Philippians 2.6), taking the form of a servant (John 13.16). If the disciples had considered the import of Jesus' words, they would have realized the exaltation that awaited the Son, and would have rejoiced.

You cannot even begin to suggest that Jesus did not somehow know he was divine, when just fourteen passages earlier, before Jesus' ascension into Heaven to be seated at the right hand of the Father, Christ comforts His disciples by telling them that though He was leaving them, they could still commune with Him through prayer ("If you ask Me anything... I will do it"). It is here that Christ makes Himself the object of prayer, but also, in doing so is presupposing the omni attributes of God. The only true object of prayer is the one God of Israel, whom the OT identifies as YHWH. And alone the one God of Israel is the only proper recipient of prayer, and subsequently the only deity who really is there and able to answer prayer.

 

[Reformedjason]

If the trinity was false, then why at the baptism of Jesus do we see the son in the water, the spirit as a dove and the fathers voice from heaven?

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, well .... also sadly and sorry to say that your confession is partially, basically true, taken out of the full written context and further lack the Helper's help of the HOLY SPIRIT in order to see the whole picture, Scripturally which HE has helped me to quote to share HIS wisdom of sound doctrine, learning from the HIS HOLY BIBLE as it is written. Please, you have not read word to word the sharing to ponder and ask the Teacher the HOLY SPIRIT and wait to discern what all of this that has been mentioned in Scriptural and wisdom confession mean. No one can ignore what GOD have spoken in HIS 'every Word that proceeded out HIS mouth'.

How all of us, especially me who tend to prefer to stick to the basics the good news only as how sadly the Scriptural sharing in the church today and it's leaders. We continue to fail also to learn to grow by corrections and chastisement highlighted from GOD's Word, the Grace and Truth knowledge (Kingdom Wisdom) and put to practice them, as we were called to do, excel in the knowledge faith, the MASTER's request of 'Abiding' and be totally free. How also with itching ears we have become talented in opposing and debating 'Kingdom sound doctrine', further failing to ever know and learn patiently.

These are just concerns that the LORD will not have to come back to reject many of us as 'lawless ones'. i have had my mess ups too and they have been ugly to remember, that i have come to know by the help of the HOLY SPIRIT the Teacher and Reminder of the Grace and Truth of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

GOD's Word (CHRIST the HOLY SPIRIT), is truly the Double Edged Sword as it is written, sharper than any other swords.

i am no better than anyone but only an unworthy servant just doing the MASTER's given duty, the Heavenly host, who have placed HIS gift in me in order for me to serve HIS lambs and sheepfold, to only build and edify them.

May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST forgive all opposer and debaters and bless them in spirit and truth.

 

[ElijahCharton]

You might be right. Jesus never claimed to be god in any text. Paul said Jesus was god.

 

[Elin]

You might be right. Jesus never claimed to be god in any text. Paul said Jesus was god.

He never used the words, "I am God," he wanted to live long enough
to get to the appointed time for the cross.

But it depends on what you think he meant when he made the following claims:

• He came from heaven (Jn 3;13, 6:38, 42, 62)
• and was sent by God (Jn 5:36-40, 10:36, 13:3, 16:28)
• to die as a ransom for the sins of many (Mt 20:28, 26:28, Jn 10:11),
• with power to forgive sin (Mt 9:2-6),
• to conquer Satan (Jn 12:31; Lk 10:18; Mk 1:23-26, 5:6-13),
• to speak for God (Jn 7:16, 8:25-28, 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10, Lk 9:35, 10:16),
• and to judge all mankind (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48, Mt 25:31-33),
• as the exclusive way to God (Jn 14:6; Ac 4:12) - excludes all other ways,
• the source of all truth and life (Jn 1:4, 5:25-26, 6:39-40),
• the decisive factor in the eternal destiny of every man (Jn 3:18-19, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:24-25),
• possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22, Jn 13:3, 13),
• equal with God (Jn 5:18, 8:19, 12:44-45, 14:7-9, 16:15, 17:10); i.e., doing what God does (Jn 5:19)
  • as the Father works, so the Son works (miracles) - (Jn 5:17)
  • as the Father gives life, so the Son gives life (Jn 5:21)
  • as the Father is Judge, so the Son is Judge (Jn 5:22)
  • as the Father is to be honored, so the Son is to be honored (Jn 5:23)
  • as the Father has (eternal) life in himself, so the Son has (eternal) life in himself (Jn 5:26)
  • as the Father sends with authority and power, so the Son sends with authority and power (Jn 20:21)
  • as the Father confers the kingdom, so the Son confers the kingdom (Lk 22:29)
  • as the Father is Lawgiver, so the Son is Lawgiver (Mt 5:23-47, 12:7-8, 19:9, 21:23-27, chp 23)
• empowering the apostles to speak for him, as well as for God (Lk 10:16, Jn 13:20)
• and to recall and understand all things correctly (Jn 14:26, 16:13-15, Lk 24:48-49).

And remember, Jesus said he was speaking exactly what God told him to say
when he made all these claims about himself (Jn 12:49).
And finally, his name is Emmanuel which is "God with us." (Mt 1:23)
Jesus is saying in these staggering claims that he is no less than God.

And that is precisely the way the Jews (who were there) understood him
(Mk 2:3-7; Jn 6:41-42, 10:30-33, 5:18, 8:58-59; 19:7), which is why they had him killed.



​

 

[capumetu]

Believe it or not (as you can see with some of your posts) with all the good info you have given, some people really do not care about the truth. Of course satan does not care if you worship Jesus as long as you do not worship the father as Jesus said you should do at Mat 4:10; because life comes from worshipping the true God, and no one else. As a little additional info Jesus told how he and his Father were one: [TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]


[TR]
[TD="class: VerseHeader"]Joh 17:22[/TD]

[TD="class: VerseBody"]And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto
them; that they may be one, even as we [are] one; [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, according to the Holy Scripture by the help of the HOLY SPIRIT, in order to remember and to stir up our memory, in the book of Hebrews, the LIVING GOD Himself in the presence of HIS Holy Angels, who have chosen HIM (CHRIST HIS only begotten SON) and sent HIM and to accomplish what mankind could not nor never do, proclaims HIM as God (also before HIS MESSIAH presence, named CHRIST as the 'Everlasting Father' and 'Mighty God' in the fullness and likeness for the LIVING GOD, according to Isaiah the prophet of the Old Testament).

 

[st_sebastian]

If the trinity was false, then why at the baptism of Jesus do we see the son in the water, the spirit as a dove and the fathers voice from heaven?

Because all three were involved? Non-Trinitarians do believe that the Holy Spirit and Jesus exist. A modalist would say that we're seeing these three aspects of God simultaneously, which is obviously within God's power. Heck, even a Muslim would say that this scene makes sense - God sends down an angel to bless his prophet Jesus.

A person who believes in the Trinity has a very big hurdle to clear - more than showing that these three persons exist, more than showing that they share in the same nature, we have to demonstrate that they're three separate persons sharing the same nature, not just different aspects of one undifferentiated God.

 

[Elin]

Because all three were involved? Non-Trinitarians do believe that the Holy Spirit and Jesus exist. A modalist would say that we're seeing these three aspects of God simultaneously, which is obviously within God's power. Heck, even a Muslim would say that this scene makes sense - God sends down an angel to bless his prophet Jesus.

A person who believes in the Trinity has a very big hurdle to clear - more than showing that these three persons exist, more than showing that they share in the same nature, we have to demonstrate that they're three separate persons sharing the same nature, not just different aspects of one undifferentiated God.

They are presented as three separate persons in the NT.

 

[shrimp]

Hey, I have a question.(I know I'm supposed to be reading Revelation, I am, just taking a while)
Anyway my question is this: What if, the Bible says that God is three in one and one in three?
I don't know if I'm making sense or not so, what if, the trinity and oneness were both right? Simultaneously.

I guess that is one of the questions that have be rolling around my heart for weeks.

 

[shrimp]

​No takers? ok. I'll just continue my search.

 

[Elin]

Hey, I have a question.(I know I'm supposed to be reading Revelation, I am, just taking a while)
Anyway my question is this: What if, the Bible says that God is three in one and one in three?
I don't know if I'm making sense or not so, what if, the trinity and oneness were both right? Simultaneously.

I guess that is one of the questions that have be rolling around my heart for weeks.

The Trinity is three persons in one God.

 

[shrimp]

Maybe I didn't understand the Oneness literature I read. Don't they basically believe in One in Three?

 

[sensible]

The bible doen't talk abt trinity !

 

[st_sebastian]

The difficulty is that Trinitarians have put a great deal of effort into distinguishing themselves from anything that might resemble a compromise with oneness or unitarianism of any sort.

A lot of the arguments people make for the Trinity, a lot of what would seem like sensible hybrids, would actually be dismissed as heresy by early Trinitarians. The ice, water, steam thing, for example? Modalism. Comparing God to an egg, each part making up the whole? Even stranger, because each is said to be fully God, not one third of it.

The Christian idea of the Trinity is very, very specific.

 

[Delija]

Human brain won't ever been capable to understand concept of Holy Trinity in full meaning.Maybe when man step into spiritual world that will be the case.In Christ .

 

[NoahsDad]

What is the point of this thread?

 

[ElizabethPeter]

Trinity is not biblical. Nowhere in Scripture is God referred to or called "trinity."

The word"three" is never used in reference to God or Jesus.
God is never called or even referred to as "a person."
The holy spirit is never called "God."

Since Christ is the Son, He cannot also be the Father or be coequal with His Father. Christ outright said:"MyFather is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

John 10:30 "I and the Father, We are ONE". Jesus did not say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," Look at it as they work together to accomplish the same goal.

Scripture, says that there is only ONE GOD.
Scripture says what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God
Scripture says who the one God is

And all of these things are proven in just one single Scripture.

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even asthere are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS,and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST,through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge"This would be speaking about those that believe in the unbiblical trinity.

Jesus Christ is the "one LORD." Which we were told in the verse above.
This Scripture tells us that"ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that"ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...out from the father"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God,Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).

Nowhere does it say God came out from Christ. Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was createdTHROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity.

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREMEDEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He isthe Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

Jesus said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in that verse.

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."

It is not biblical that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ. There is no trinity.

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (ICor. 11:3).

There is no head of God, but Christ has a head. So obviously Jesus is not God the father. No trinity.

There is another verse that proves that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:
"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..."(Eph. 1:17).

Did you catch that? Jesus Christ has a God. Not is The one and only God.

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Jesus is the Son "of" God and not God Himself, that the holy spirit is the spirit "of" God and not God Himself? We have the Son "of" God and the spirit"of" God and yet God is "OF" NO ONE.

"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER,out of Whom ALL is..." (ICor. 8:6).
"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).
"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).
"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).
"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT"(Mat. 5:48)
"God IS LOVE"(I John 4:8).
"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).
"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).

"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John17:3).

Jesus called His Father "...theONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).
"God is NOT A MAN..."(I Sam. 15:29).
Jesus Christ IS A MAN!"For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN,Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THESON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat.16:16).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SONOF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

Above Jesus says why are you calling me good, only God is good which should tell us he is not God and doesn’t want to be called good since only God is good.
if Christ is "God," why isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Is Christ God? He can be called God becuaes the works he works are coming from God the father and being worked through Jesus, the son but that does NOT make Him God,the FATHER.

Jesus never came out and said"I AM GOD" He always called Himself, "The Son OFGod." Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY.

Can anyone claim that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? If you say yes and Since there is none higher than God, who gave God all he had? we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a man made trinity.

Also Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).

"I am going to the Father, forTHE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I"(John 14:28).

"Now, whenever all may besubjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of an unbiblical trinity. They are "Father and Son." When Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the"holy spirit" into that relationship

"I am the true Grapevine, andMy father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

The holy spirit is not mentioned in that verse. If the holy spirit were a third personality or god of the trinity, then why is it not mentioned in that verse and not only in that verse but in so many other verses as well?

I have to ask, If Jesus is the one God, when He died on the cross, WHO resurrected Him back to life?

If theFather, the Holy Spirit of God, and Jesus Christ are One inseparable God, then if either of the three were to die, ALL WOULD DIE. God the father who is not a man has never died.

If God is a trinity and the trinity itself DIED, then there would be no power to resurrect anyone andwe would be without any God today, If "God" (your trinity), DIED, then"God" died--ALL OF GOD DIED.

If trinity exist, why does Jesus Christ HAVE A GOD, yet the Father does not HAVE a God?

Jesus said he didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him. Why? Because theFather freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed. Jesus had ALL powerand ALL authority and ALL judgment in heaven and earth. Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity? No, God GAVE Jesus all these things

There is no trinity. Trinity only exist in the mind of the carnal mind of man and his private false interpretation of scriptures.

I feel you have a point here. But, that's through your own understandings. In the end, everyone has their own interpretations. And the Holy Trinity, is real. As real as cows. So, quite real. You can't see it. But seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing. By saying this, you'll only bring a lot of arguments, and you're saying that everything God is, is false. So, God is wrong. Come on. You know better than that. I know you do. May the Lord bless you.

 

[AppleMelon]

Good thing that woman was banned. She is a minister of Satan going about to deceive, trying to destroy those weak in the faith. The Trinity, or as the Bible calls it, the "Godhead" is a clear teaching in scripture.

Genesis 1:26 - "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Who is us that God was talking about? The Godhead.

1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The verse clearly says "three", and then it names God the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost. If there weren't new versions it would be so easy for everyone to just say this verse in the KJV and this Satanic heresy that this woman has brought could be over with. But conveniently all modern versions remove the mention of the Godhead in this verse, the same Satan that inspired this woman inspired the new versions. Why would she say that it never says there are three persons in the Trinity when 1 John 5:7 clearly says it. Maybe she knows that modern English-speaking professing Christians don't have the sword of the Spirit to fight with which is the word of God, the KJV.

Anway, proof that Jesus is the Word...

Revelation 19:12-16 - "12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.


13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Good thing this woman is banned, she is an heretick.