TRINITY IS A FALSE TEACHING.

[Linda70]

The term "trinity" is not in the Bible, but the concept is:

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith (1742) stated, "In this Divine and Infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word (or Son), and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided; the Father is of none neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son, all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and our comfortable dependence on him." This was the profession of faith held by most Christians until the modern era. The popular hymn Holy, Holy, Holy proclaims, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty! Merciful and Mighty! God in Three Persons, blessed Trinity!" This is indeed the God of the Bible.

 

[sensible]

God bless u sister, u wright the truth , i totaly agree with u there is no trinity
just to add in matthew chap 28 vers 19:Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
There is no "S" in the word name, that mean father, son, holy spirit is ONE

 

[chubbena]

My post is to you, not to "some."

So one thing at a time.

When you have cleared the table of what is now on it for you to address,
we will then put on the table what you want me to address.

Bible verses were presented by the opposite side before I joint the conversation. I joint here hoping to see what the proponents of trinity think about those verses they presented. I don't understand why they so reluctant to address them, likewise with the opponents. The thread has become solely a pointless showdown of what bible verses could support one's teaching.
So you want to know what I think? I give you this: I don't think the trinity teaching could possibly and completely describe the relation among Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They don't come in a triangular box.

 

[Cycel]

There are millions of people who self-identify as Christian who do not believe in the trinity. I was one of them.

Understandable that there are still unbelievers of the trinity. But who are they to state its a false teaching just because they don't believe it?

Millions of self-identified Christians do not accept the doctrine of the trinity. It's a simple fact.

Just because they don't believe in something it don't mean it's wrong, or false, or fake or what ever does it?

No, but the fact that millions disagree means the discussion is not settled. There may be good reason to closely examine the evidence of both sides.

people will always make remarks about something that they don't believe, its because they don't understand.

Or maybe they understand better than you realize. Maybe they know some things that you don't? I can't make the determination till I've put all their arguments alongside your own.

Its like when you are were a child, your parents would put on the table food, and you as a child would ewwwwwww i don't like that or that, your parents would then ask, well have you tried it? child would say no, well then the parents would say, how you say you dont like it if you not tried it? child goes quiet.

These are not children we are talking about. They are adults. Many are very knowledgeable when it comes to scripture and they've come to a different conclusion.

But yes i agree that there are thousands of people who don't believe...

Not thousands, Richie, many millions don’t accept the trinity, but they accept Christ as their saviour.

... I was an unbeliever at one time before I became a Christian, I'm sure we all were.

I was a Christian before I became an atheist. Most atheists I've come across started out Christian.

I am curous. You say you were an unbeliever. Do you mean you were an atheist?

But once you get to understand things, once you understand the bible you start seeing the true.

I can assure you the very opposite is a frequent outcome. For some people, the more they learn about the Bible the more doubt grows within them.

 

[Elin]

Bible verses were presented by the opposite side before I joint the conversation. I joint here hoping to see what the proponents of trinity think about those verses they presented. I don't understand why they so reluctant to address them, likewise with the opponents. The thread has become solely a pointless showdown of what bible verses could support one's teaching.
So you want to know what I think? I give you this: I don't think the trinity teaching could possibly and completely describe the relation among Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They don't come in a triangular box.

Do me the favor of presenting those verses, or the post(s) where they can be found.

Thanks.

 

[chubbena]

Post #1..........hopefully the dots made it long enough to be posted.

 

[Elin]

Bible verses were presented by the opposite side before I joint the conversation. I joint here hoping to see what the proponents of trinity think about those verses they presented.

Have you looked into post #379 (here) by GraceBeUntoYou for those answers?

 

[chubbena]

I'm reading it. It came not a moment too soon. It's only post #379 afterall. I'm glad his did the homework for me.

 

[chubbena]

Of course, the reason why it is useless to explain these passages is two fold: (a) the posters use of most of these passages would have to assume and confuse Trinitarianism with Modalism (thus, she argues for a distinction of Father and Son as if it is some kind of rebuttal to Trinitarianism); and because (b) we have done so already elsewhere. We are not obliged to respond to the same passages over, and over when our answers lie within a simple use of the search function. But since this seems to be too tedious of a task, allow me to do the homework for you:

John 10.30 ( http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ible-teach-jesus-christ-god-3.html#post807034 )
1 Corinthians 8.6 ( http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/74016-trinity-false-teaching-12.html#post1264151 and http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ays-prove-deity-jesus-christ.html#post1254533 )
Colossians 1 ( http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ference-between-god-jesus-62.html#post1171430 )
John 14.28 ( http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/73384-jesus-god-2.html#post1223585 and http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...100-flesh-blood-man-100-god-2.html#post817464 )
John 17.3 (http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...uestions-jehovahs-witnesses-4.html#post825670 [I have additional things to say also about this passage])
Mark 10.18/Luke 18.19 ( http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...lms-83-18-whom-worship-help-4.html#post757408 [Post #65] )

Those who know are obliged to. It's given to you for a reason and not all here are swine and dogs. Thanks for the links though.

 

[Graybeard]

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Why can't people just accept this??...

 

[chubbena]

John 10.30 ( http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ible-teach-jesus-christ-god-3.html#post807034 )

Please address this verse directly:
Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
Jesus knows exactly what the accusation is - He proclaimed that He is God's Son rather than He proclaimed that He is God.

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, and praise GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST for your, Brethren confession and acknowledgement of Grace and Truth of our LORD JESUS CHRIST brought for our Salvation in order to build ourselves and others.
May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless all and your heart further in spirit and truth, in order to worship HIM, I AM that I AM of Israel because of Abraham, in righteousness, which is of the HOLY SPIRIT's Teachings and in it's conformed bodily spirit, grown in sound doctrine of the New Covenant and practices, the conformation of 'abiding' the Words of the MESSIAH, the author and finisher of our faith, from the HOLY SPIRIT's, GOD given through CHRIST's spiritual discernment knowledge of the New Covenant and justified as Eternal Life.

 

[Elin]

I was a Christian before I became an atheist. Most atheists I've come across started out Christian.

For some people, the more they learn about the Bible the more doubt grows within them.

Here's the thing.

Apart from illumination by the Holy Spirit, the Bible is a closed book.

The unaided human mind can neither understand nor accept the Bible.

 

[LoveAnna]

Just a few verses that directly oppose your belief. First one is in Isaiah 9:6.
"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The Holy Spirit is of course the Wonderful Counselor (Those two verses are not seperated in.) Also, this verse says the Son will be called the Everlasting Father.

Another verse is in John 1:1 (I am surprised that you didn't use this verse, but I don't know how you could. It says...) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Now how could the Word both be WITH God and BE God? Can our finite minds understand the Infinity?

Jesus is our Savior right? Let's look at Jude 25
"To God our Savior,[SUP][g][/SUP]
Who alone is wise,[SUP][h][/SUP]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[SUP][i][/SUP]
Both now and forever.
Amen." Wait... To who? To God? And who is this God? Our Savior Right? But isn't Jesus our Savior? Hmmmm

 

[Elin]

Just a few verses that directly oppose your belief. First one is in Isaiah 9:6.
"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The Holy Spirit is of course the Wonderful Counselor (Those two verses are not seperated in.) Also, this verse says the Son will be called the Everlasting Father.

Another verse is in John 1:1 (I am surprised that you didn't use this verse, but I don't know how you could. It says...) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Now how could the Word both be WITH God and BE God? Can our finite minds understand the Infinity?

Jesus is our Savior right? Let's look at Jude 25
"To God our Savior,[SUP][g][/SUP]
Who alone is wise,[SUP][h][/SUP]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[SUP][i][/SUP]
Both now and forever.
Amen." Wait... To who? To God? And who is this God? Our Savior Right? But isn't Jesus our Savior? Hmmmm

Your avatar looks so much like my baby brother.

 

[Undertaker]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

"For there are three that bear record [ in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one]."
1 John 5:7
Is this not a fair testimony to acknowledge the `Doctrine of Trinity'?

The text quoted does appear in the Kings James Version but has been omitted by most of the editors of the recent versions e.g. Revised Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, New English Bible, Phillips Modern English Bible, because the quoted text does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts.

the evidence of every kind is consistent and clear: the disputed words of I John 5:7 have no claim as an original part of John's letter, but were introduced into Greek from Latin in the very late Middle Ages.

The scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gives the following explanation for this action in his "Emphatic Diaglott."

"This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have lead them to appeal to it's authority. It is therefore evidently spurious."​

The Wycliffe Bible Commentary
The text of this verse should read, Because there are three that bear record. The remainder of the verse is spurious. Not a single manuscript contains the trinitarian addition before the fourteenth century, and the verse is never quoted in the controversies over the Trinity in the first 450 years of the church era.

1 John 5:7 & trinity

 

[Linda70]

The old "Johannine Comma" debate!

I am well aware that 1 John 5:7,8 appear in the King James Version of the Bible...however it has not been proven that "the quoted text does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts." Simply put, it was those who denied (and continue to deny) the triunity of the Godhead and those who did not believe (and continue not to believe) in the inspiration of the Scriptures, who have done (and continue to do) the most arguing.

Terence Brown, the former editorial secretary of the Trinitarian Bible Society of London, England, made this observation: “The last century has witnessed a steady drift away from the deity of Christ and towards ‘unitarianism’. It is not surprising that scholars who have been caught up in this tide of unbelief should welcome the support of these unreliable documents” (Brown, God Was Manifest in the Flesh, Trinitarian Bible Society, nd).

One of the first to attack 1 John 5:7 was an Arian named Sandius, in 1670.

The next attack came from the pen of Roman Catholic priest Richard Simon in the book Histoire Criticque du Vieux Testament (Critical History of the Old Testament), published in 1678. Simon was a forerunner of German higher criticism, denying that Moses was the author of the Pentateuch.

Another attack upon 1 John 5:7 came from the pen of the famous historian Edward Gibbon (1737-94) in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776, 1788). He argued that Christians added the Trinitarian statement and other things to the New Testament centuries after it was first written. Gibbon was a skeptic after the fashion of Voltaire and did not believe in the divine inspiration of the Scriptures.

A reply was given to Gibbon’s charges by George Travis, Archdeacon of Chester, who published Letters to Edward Gibbon, Esq., author of the History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire; in defence of the authenticity of the seventh verse of the fifth chapter of the First Epistle of St. John. (Chester, 1784; other editions were published in 1785 and 1794).

Source: Bible Version Question and Answer Database, pg. 338 by David W. Cloud

The following is adapted from a message entitled “The Trinity” by the late fundamental Baptist preacher I.M. Haldeman, pastor of First Baptist Church, New York City, 1884-1933.

Scripture always speaks of God as One God.

“There is none other God but one...” (1 Cor. 8:4).

The Son of God, our Lord, defines God essentially as spirit (John 4:24). The Holy Ghost defines God as person (“the express image of his person,” Hebrews 1:3). But this word “person” in the Greek is hupostasis--which signifies “substance,” “essence,” and, in final analysis, ‘Being.”

So that, speaking correctly, we should say: “God is One Substance--One Essence--One Being--The Supreme Being.”

In this one and indivisible Being there is a plurality of persons--subsisting.

“God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness” (Gen. 1:26). The Hebrew word for God here is Elohim. It is a plural noun and is always joined to a verb in the singular, indicating that the act of this plurality of persons--is always as the act of ONE.

Scripture reveals that in this One Being, this One Substance--Spirit--there subsist three distinct persons. They are known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Scripture teaches that these three persons constitute what is called the Godhead (Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9).

Each person of this Divine Being is God. And each of them is all that God is.

The Father is God (John 6:27). The Son is God (Heb. 1:8; Titus 2:13; John 20:28). The Spirit is God (Acts 5:1-4).

Each one of these persons is entirely God, but the three persons are not in any sense three Gods.

Not one of them can be God without the other two. The Father cannot be God without the Son and the Spirit. The Son cannot be God without the Father and the Spirit. The Spirit cannot be God without the Father and the Son.

Each is God only as each is in the one Being of the Godhead.

As this Godhead cannot be divided, there cannot be three Gods.

As this indivisible Being constitutes One God and no one of the persons can take any degree of Being from the other, then, the Three, being in and of the one substance, constitute one indivisible Being, or God.

Correctly and theologically speaking we are to say, concerning God, that “we neither confound the persons nor divide the substance.”

And therefore, God is a Triunity of Being in One Godhead. He is three Persons in a unity of Being.

Way of Life Literature

Comments on the Trinity | Doctrine

 

[CRC]

DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:
“Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
“The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings.”—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

 

[Elin]

DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:
“Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
“The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings.”—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

Well, if you consider the early Christians to be the apostles, the answer is yes,
as seen in the three separate divine persons they present in the one God.

Did they use the word "Trinity," the answer is no.

 

[Cycel]

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Why can't people just accept this??...

Well, for one thing, John reported also that Jesus said the following: "for the Father is greater than I.... I love the Father, and do exactly as he commands..." (John 14:28-31).

Jesus (if these are his words) at least at this time, appears not to see himself as God.

I think it is important that the Trinity is not mentioned in scripture. You would think this all important doctrine would be mentioned somewhere in the New Testament. It, after all, is so central today. I think the fact it was not mentioned may mean it was not always central to Christian understanding. Historically, the first mention of the Trinity is in the 2nd century. There was considerable controversy with not all Christians accepting the (new?) doctrine. It has a complex history with its final formalization in the 4th century. Someone like myself has to wonder why, if the doctrine was central to the understanding of Jesus' original followers, it was not more clearly stated.

I have a question. Does the idea of the Trinity arise primarily, or exclusively, with John, or are there important references to it in the Synoptics as well?