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Re: You're reaching for the stars...
Frankly, you're starting to sound like a JW, Frank...
Frankly, you're starting to sound like a JW, Frank...
Re: Here comes another.....
Its not my 'theory'....and...yes, it most assuredly does...
Its not my 'theory'....and...yes, it most assuredly does...
Start studying...
The 144,000 represents spiritual Israel, as dictated by the text.
Not a literal number, but a symbolic, spiritual number for the ones taking The Son as God, as thus...
Rev 7.4 - 9
And I heard the number of those having been sealed: one hundred forty four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand having been sealed. After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.
Observe that John first 'hears' their number....then He 'sees' their number....and their number was innumerable...
Not a literal 144,000.
Not Jews.
But representing ALL believers in the Triune God.
Deal with it....
The 144,000 represents spiritual Israel, as dictated by the text.
Not a literal number, but a symbolic, spiritual number for the ones taking The Son as God, as thus...
Rev 7.4 - 9
And I heard the number of those having been sealed: one hundred forty four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Out of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand having been sealed. Out of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand having been sealed. After these things I saw, and behold, a great crowd which no one was able to number them, out of every nation, even tribes and peoples and tongues, standing in front of the throne, and before the Lamb, having been clothed with white robes, and in their hands palm branches.
Observe that John first 'hears' their number....then He 'sees' their number....and their number was innumerable...
Not a literal 144,000.
Not Jews.
But representing ALL believers in the Triune God.
Deal with it....
Gnaw on this...
Abraham saw Jesus in the OT…
Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
(John 8.56 – 58)
Compare…
Gen 15.1 - 7
After these things The Word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying, Do not fear, Abram; I am your shield, your reward will increase greatly. And Abram said, Lord Yahweh, what will You give to me since I am going childless and the son of the inheritance of my house is Eleazar of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold! You have given no seed to me; and lo, the son of my house is inheriting of me! And behold! The Word of Yahweh came to him saying, This one shall not be inheriting. But he that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be your heir. And He brought him outside and said, Look now at the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them. And He said to him, So shall your seed be. And he believed in Yahweh. And He counted it to him for righteousness. And He said to him, I am Yahweh who caused you to come out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.
Immediately, we can see what it was that made Abraham’s belief in God so special…he believed in The Word of Yahweh (i.e. The Word of God)….i.e. The Second Person of The Trinity, Jesus Christ!
Abraham saw Jesus in the OT…
Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
(John 8.56 – 58)
Compare…
Gen 15.1 - 7
After these things The Word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying, Do not fear, Abram; I am your shield, your reward will increase greatly. And Abram said, Lord Yahweh, what will You give to me since I am going childless and the son of the inheritance of my house is Eleazar of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold! You have given no seed to me; and lo, the son of my house is inheriting of me! And behold! The Word of Yahweh came to him saying, This one shall not be inheriting. But he that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be your heir. And He brought him outside and said, Look now at the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them. And He said to him, So shall your seed be. And he believed in Yahweh. And He counted it to him for righteousness. And He said to him, I am Yahweh who caused you to come out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.
Immediately, we can see what it was that made Abraham’s belief in God so special…he believed in The Word of Yahweh (i.e. The Word of God)….i.e. The Second Person of The Trinity, Jesus Christ!
P
purpose
Guest
I Like this . The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ 1 The love of God 2 and the communion of the Holy Ghost 3 be with you all.Amen. 3 are 1 . 2 corinthians 13:14 .
MATTHEW 28: 19 -20
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MATTHEW 28: 19 -20
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O.T. TRUTH
Isaiah 43:10-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I alone declared, saved, and proclaimed— and not some foreign god among you. So you are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and I am God.
Genesis 1:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
1 Chronicles 16:29-31 (HCSB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Ascribe to Yahweh the glory of His name; bring an offering and come before Him. Worship the LORD in the splendor of ⌊His⌋ holiness;
[SUP]30 [/SUP] tremble before Him, all the earth. The world is firmly established; it cannot be shaken.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Let the heavens be glad and the earth rejoice, and let them say among the nations, “The LORD is King!”
Isaiah 9:6-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The dominion will be vast, and its prosperity will never end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from now on and forever. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.
N.T. TRUTH
Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.
John 8:58 (HCSB)
[SUP]58 [/SUP] Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,
Romans 1:19-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
Revelation 19:11-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
John 1:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,and the Word was God.
John 14:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.
John 10:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”
Galatians 3:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Luke 1:31-32 (HCSB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Now listen: You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will call His name Jesus.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
Philippians 2:5-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Re: Gnaw on this...
1. Your quote is not from the KJV. If we have to accept your scripture, we have to accept the scriptures of the Mormons,
Jehovah Witnesses, Jahweh Witnesses, Koran etc.
2. It does not quote Son of God and can thus not use is as proof. Imagine for one moment you had no NT where you had
any reference to the Son of God.
3. It does not quote Jesus Christ.
4. Quoting Jahweh is also not correct. NOBODY knows God's real name. As already explained the tettragrammatons JHVH
and JHWH are used and there are literally thousand of possibilities of names. NOBODY can for sure say that God's Name
is Jehovah, Jahweh or any twisted form thereof. That is why the term I AM was used to represent the Unexplainable.
So, sorry, I cannot accept your quotes.
1. Your quote is not from the KJV. If we have to accept your scripture, we have to accept the scriptures of the Mormons,
Jehovah Witnesses, Jahweh Witnesses, Koran etc.
2. It does not quote Son of God and can thus not use is as proof. Imagine for one moment you had no NT where you had
any reference to the Son of God.
3. It does not quote Jesus Christ.
4. Quoting Jahweh is also not correct. NOBODY knows God's real name. As already explained the tettragrammatons JHVH
and JHWH are used and there are literally thousand of possibilities of names. NOBODY can for sure say that God's Name
is Jehovah, Jahweh or any twisted form thereof. That is why the term I AM was used to represent the Unexplainable.
So, sorry, I cannot accept your quotes.
Thanks for your lengthy reply but you did not prove my statement to be incorrect.
1. Your quote is not from the KJV. If we have to accept your scripture, we have to accept the scriptures of the Mormons,
Jehovah Witnesses, Jahweh Witnesses, Koran etc.
2. It does not quote Son of God and can thus not use is as proof. Imagine for one moment you had no NT where you had
any reference to the Son of God.
3. It does not quote Jesus Christ.
4. Quoting Jahweh is also not correct. NOBODY knows God's real name. As already explained the tettragrammatons JHVH
and JHWH are used and there are literally thousand of possibilities of names. NOBODY can for sure say that God's Name
is Jehovah, Jahweh or any twisted form thereof. That is why the term I AM was used to represent the Unexplainable.
So, sorry, I cannot accept your quotes as well.
It is also amazing that Paul greeted the Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, Thessalonians and the Galatians all in the name of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, excluding the Holy Spirit. Why would he do that? Any explanations?
Please don't give me that crap, I know I have had trinitarians give me many views already.
The fact that you think there is more than one proves that you have been chasing strawmen...
Scripture already mandates that Father, Son, Spirit have the same ONE name.
Mentioning the 'Name ' is all that is required to invoke The Triune God.
Learn your scriptures...
Re: Gnaw on this...
Oh brother....another 'KJV, only' freak.
Page 82, footnote 2a of the Book of Mormon confesses to copying the KJV.....thus, according to YOU, the KJV MUST be dismissed!
Jacked....
Oh brother....another 'KJV, only' freak.
Page 82, footnote 2a of the Book of Mormon confesses to copying the KJV.....thus, according to YOU, the KJV MUST be dismissed!
Jacked....
So you would prefer to read the paraphrased KJV, instead of a genuine Translation from the original languages. Doubt me, read the Original preface to the 1611 KJV.
You really NEED to READ the Original Preface of the 1611 KJV, they admitted that they paraphrased lots of it from earlier English Versions. I think you will find you have put the KJV on WAY TOO HIGH OF A PEDISTAL. Here, I have pulled some excerpts out for you:
AND if you are one that thinks the KJV is THEE inspired translation, somebody taught you a big fat lie, and you fell for it.
><>t<><
NOW AS FOR THE NWT, it too is not a Translation, but rather perversion where the Translation Team openly admitted that they lifted their footnotes INTO THE TEXT, changing the actual wording of the original language to fit the wording of their footnotes:
U&U
I would ask a Jehovah Witness, "Do you believe that anyone who adds their own words to the Word of God is a False Prophet?" If they say "Yes", then ask them to read the FOREWORD of the Second Edition of the New World Translation copyright 1961:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A lot of us Christians started pointing out to them that the New World Bible Translation Committee admitted that they lifted their footnotes into the text, thus adding their words to the Word of God. The Watch Tower Society, responded by publishing a third edition, totally changing the FORWARD, and deleting that paragraph entirely.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov 30:6 (KJV)A lot of us Christians started pointing out to them that the New World Bible Translation Committee admitted that they lifted their footnotes into the text, thus adding their words to the Word of God. The Watch Tower Society, responded by publishing a third edition, totally changing the FORWARD, and deleting that paragraph entirely.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
><>t<><
As for the Translation that Mormon missionaries use, it is the KJV, the same one you use.
Mormons do believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly .... from the King James Version of the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments.
That comes from a GOOGLE Search that I just did entitled: "Which version of the Bible do the Mormon Missionaries carry?" PLUS, I can verify that EVERY TIME I CONFRONTED MORMON MISSIONARIES ABOUT BIBLE VERSES, they certainly pulled a KJV out of their backpack.
><>t<><
NOW that you ask for me to quote Jesus Christ:
John 14:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
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Re: Gnaw on this...
Yes, it does.
Imagine, for a moment, that The Son is called The Word in the OT just like He is in the NT.
Yes, it does.
Yahweh.
You are stuck on trying to pronounce the name Yahweh.
Yes, you can.
Yes, it does.
Imagine, for a moment, that The Son is called The Word in the OT just like He is in the NT.
Yes, it does.
Yahweh.
You are stuck on trying to pronounce the name Yahweh.
Yes, you can.
2 Peter 1:19-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] So we have the prophetic word strongly confirmed. You will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dismal place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] First of all, you should know this: No prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:16 (GW)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval.
Exodus 29:46 (HCSB)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And they will know that I am Yahweh their God, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, so that I might dwell among them. I am Yahweh their God.
Exodus 3:14 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”
John 8:57-59 (HCSB)
[SUP]57 [/SUP] The Jews replied, “You aren’t 50 years old yet, and You’ve seen Abraham?”
[SUP]58 [/SUP] Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
[SUP]59 [/SUP] At that, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple complex.
And you remain one who does not glorify HIM as GOD, AND HE REMAINS GOD THE CREATOR, ALSO KNOWN AS JESUS CHRIST.
Romans 1:20-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
And HE proved HE WAS THE CREATOR by the feeding of the 5000 and the feeding of the 4000, as HE CREATED MORE LOAVES AND MORE DRIED FISH.
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