Two natures of man?

[Skinski7]

Here is some reference material for those interested.


Ante-Nicene Father Volumes 1-9
Ante-Nicene Fathers – VOL I – IX : HolyBooks.com – download free ebooks

I recommend downloading Volume 1 as in that you will find writings from the patristic era of the church. You will find Polycarp (student of John), Clement of Rome (possible student of Paul), Ignatius of Antioch (student of John), Irenaeus (student of Polycarp) among others.

What you will find is that the Christianity taught then bears little resemblance to the Christianity taught now.

They did not hold to Original Sin and in fact refuted it. They upheld the free agency of man. They upheld the necessity to live just, devout and blameless lives before God and taught that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God but will be cast into hell.

They did not teach Penal Substitution but viewed the death of Christ as a ransom from serving sin. They did not tolerate immorality in their churches because they believed that immorality ceased when coming to Christ. None of them taught Romans 7 as being a Christian in the present, such teachings did not arise until the Fourth Century when Augustinianism became the accepted view.

So read the writings of these early Chrisitians. We are blessed to live in a time when their writings are freely available and have even been translated into English. So there is no real excuse to being ignorant of these things today.

Polycarp 2:2
Now He that raised Him from the dead will raise us also; if we
do His will and walk in His commandments and love the things which He
loved, abstaining from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of
money, evil speaking, false witness; not rendering evil for evil or
railing for railing or blow for blow or cursing for cursing;
Polycarp 2:3
but remembering the words which the Lord spake, as He taught; Judge
not that ye be not judged. Forgive, and it shall be forgiven to
you. Have mercy that ye may receive mercy. With what measure ye
mete, it shall be measured to you again; and again Blessed are
the poor and they that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for
theirs is the kingdom of God.
Polycarp 3:1
These things, brethren, I write unto you concerning righteousness,
not because I laid this charge upon myself, but because ye invited
me.
Polycarp 3:2
For neither am I, nor is any other like unto me, able to follow the
wisdom of the blessed and glorious Paul, who when he came among you
taught face to face with the men of that day the word which
concerneth truth carefully and surely; who also, when he was absent,
wrote a letter unto you, into the which if ye look diligently, ye
shall be able to be builded up unto the faith given to you,
Polycarp 3:3
which is the mother of us all, while hope followeth after and love
goeth before--love toward God and Christ and toward our neighbor. For
if any man be occupied with these, he hath fulfilled the commandment
of righteousness; for he that hath love is far from all sin.

 

[Elin]

Eph 2:3 - "we were by nature (Gr. phusei - naturally; by birth-Gal 2:15); objects of wrath.

Ps 51:5 - "I was brought forth (born) in iniquity (sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, perverseness).

The Bible does not teach a spiritual "neutrality" at birth (Ps 58:3).

The Bible teaches that we are born objects of God's wrath, in sin,
which is spiritual death.

Eph 2:1 - "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins."

Eph 2:4-5 - ". . .God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions. . ."

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . ."

Mt 8:21-22 - "Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'
But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.' "

So what was dead? Not their bodies.

All are born spiritually dead. (Eph 2:3; Ps 51:5).

That is why no one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again

(Jn 3:3), raised from spiritual death to spiritual life, Holy Spirit eternal life.

Rom 7:8-9 - But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.
For without the law sin was dead.

For once I was alive without the law: but
when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died

Sorry, Paul is not contrasting the unregenerate (spiritually dead) with
the regenerate (spiritually raised to eternal life, Jn 3:3),
but is contrasting living by our strength (flesh) with living by the Spirit.

Paul was not aware of his sin until he looked into the mirror of the law (Jas 1:24-25).
He thought he was alive to God, but the law showed him he was actually dead to God.

Excellent Post, Elin. You show how human speculation is unbiblical so much of the time.

I will ask you to rethink Romans 7, however. The text does not say that "Paul was merely not aware of his sin." It says that he was alive apart from the law, but when the law came, sin revived (lived again), and "I died" . . . "I am carnal, sold under sin."
The passage describes a man who is dead to the law, a Christian, but then the monkey wrench in the Christian life occurred! The law came, sin revived, & he was in a carnal state.

Thanks, Atwood, for your kind words.

Okay, what I stated in the quote above regarding Ro 7:8-9 really applies to Ro 7:14-25,
and not to Ro 7:7-13.

So let me address Ro 7:7-13.

Paul says he was alive without the law and that
when the law came he died.

Since the law was given long before Paul was born,
and since he did not actually die,
could he be speaking idiomatically?

He had not known sin but by the law.
Like a mirror reveals our natural face with its spots and blemishes,
so the law revealed his natural sin to him (Jas 1:23-25),
gave him a knowledge of it, which led to repentance
when he compared his heart to the law.

In the law the Holy Spirit mirrored to him that, even without any sinful act,
concupiscence (lust) in the heart was sinful.
The Holy Spirit made him aware in the law of his indwelling sin, which he knew nothing of before.
Unregenerate (natural) Paul had been blind regarding his original corruption,
and he remained in the dark until the Holy Spirit by the law showed it to him when he was reborn.
That is how the law is an instructor to bring us to Christ.

The Holy Spirit showed sin in the law to be what it is, how it is exceedingly sinful (v.13).

While a Pharisee, Paul was secure and confident of his goodness ("I was alive").
But in reality he was without the law, he did not understand its spiritual meaning,
it was in his head, but not in his heart, he had a mental apprehension of it,
but not the power of it in his heart.

But when he was reborn, "the commandment came" in its power to his heart, not just his head,
"sin revived," appeared, the Holy Spirit showed him what he had never seen before in sin,
his naturally (unregenerate) corrupt bias toward it,
"and I died," the Holy Spirit convincing him with such power that Paul, the obedient Pharisee,
was not righteous, but in a state of sin, and in spiritual death because of that sin.

So powerful was this revelation by the Holy Spirit to Paul that it stood his former theology on its head.

We can see this in his presentation of it in Ro 3:10-20, 5:18-19, 7:7-13, 8:7-8; Eph 2:1, 3, 5; Col 2:13.

It also stands Skinski7ism on its head, which is why it is do resisted there.

I think Ro 7:7-13 is idiomatically dealing with the unregenerate Pharisee Paul
before he was born again (regenerated) by the holy Spirit,
who then revealed to him by the law his previous original innate corruption,
indwelling sin, and natural bias toward it,
which is why we have such strong presentation of man's innate corruption in Paul's writings.

I see no other explanation of Rom 7 except that the Christian has 2 ego's or I's: a ME that hates sin & wants to do God's will, and a ME which is the flesh -- that is to say,
2 natures. The victory comes as described in Rom 8, the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus sets one free from the law of sin & death.

Yes, that is the burden of Ro 7:14-25, but I see a different burden in Ro 7:7-13.

In Romans 7, the Christian is not utilizing the power of the Spirit in His carnal state.

I think in vv. 22-24 of Ro 7:14-25 Paul is just summarizing the two principles at work in a Christian,
the powerlessness of his body of death, and the power of his body of Holy Spirit life (vv. 22-23)
which rescues him from the powerlessness of his body of death/sin (v.24),
which hung on him like a corpse, and from which he could not gain freedom
by his natural powerlessness.

 

[Elin]

We are not born dead nor are we born regenerate.
We are born neutral having neither chosen to do good nor evil.

Only in Skinski7ism.

Eph 2:3 - "we were by nature (Gr. phusei - naturally; by birth-Gal 2:15); objects of wrath.

Ps 51:5 - "I was brought forth (born) in iniquity (sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, perverseness).

The Bible does not teach a spiritual "neutrality" at birth (Ps 58:3).

The Bible teaches that we are born objects of God's wrath, in sin, which is spiritual death.

Eph 2:1 - "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins."

Eph 2:4-5 - ". . .God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead
in transgressions. . ."

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . ."

Mt 8:21-22 - "Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'
But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.' "

So what was dead? Not their bodies.

All are born spiritually dead. (Eph 2:3; Ps 51:5).

That is why no one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:3),

raised from spiritual death to spiritual life, Holy Spirit eternal life.

 

[Elin]

This video goes into depth the
origin of the dual nature doctrine which was introduced into orthodox Christianity in the Fourth Century.

Except for that small detail, omitted by Skinski7ism, of Paul introducing the "dual nature doctrine"

in the first century, as shown in post #63, immediately above.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Gnosticism by Matt Slick
Gnosticism traces its roots back just after the beginning of the Christian Church. Some researchers state that evidence of its existence even predates Christianity. Whichever the case, the error of gnosticism had affected the culture and church of the time and possibly even a earned a mention in 1 John 4.
The word "gnosticism" comes from the Greek word "gnosis" which means "knowledge." There were many groups that were Gnostic and it isn't possible to easily describe the nuances of each variant of Gnostic doctrines. However, generally speaking, Gnosticism taught that salvation is achieved through special knowledge (gnosis). This knowledge usually dealt with the individual's relationship to the transcendent Being.
A more detailed Gnostic theology is as follows. The unknowable God was far too pure and perfect to have anything to do with the material universe which was considered evil. Therefore, God generated lesser divinities, or emenations. One of these emanations, Wisdom desired to know the unknowable God. Out of this erring desire the demiurge an evil god was formed and it was this evil god that created the universe. He along with archons kept the mortals in bondage in material matter and tried to prevent the pure spirit souls from ascending back to god after the death of the physical bodies. Since, according to the Gnostics, matter is evil, deliverance from material form was attainable only through special knowledge revealed by special Gnostic teachers. Christ was the divine redeemer who descended from the spiritual realm to reveal the knowledge necessary for this redemption. In conclusion, Gnosticism is dualistic. That is, it teaches there is a good and evil, spirit and matter, light and dark, etc. dualism in the universe.

about.com - about religion Gnosticism:[h=3]Dualism
Dualism, roughly speaking, posits the existence of two creators. The first is a god of goodness and pure spirituality (often called the Godhead), while the second (often called the demiurge) is the creator of the physical world, which has trapped divine souls in mortal form. In some cases, the demiurge is a god in and of itself, equal and opposite to the Godhead. In other cases, the demiurge is a being of lesser (although still considerable) standing. The demiurge might be a specifically evil being, or it might simply be imperfect, just as its creation is imperfect.[/h]In both cases, Gnostics worship only the Godhead. The demiurge is not worthy of such reverence. Some Gnostics were highly ascetic, rejecting the material word as strongly as possible. This is not the approach of all Gnostics, although all are ultimately spiritually focused on gaining understanding of and unification with the Godhead.

I just can't see where I am teaching that evil emanates from all material things nor a true God and a lesser God. Men are comprised of "flesh" - are they not? That which is born of the flesh is flesh. A man in the flesh lives his life according to his five senses - by what he can touch, taste, hear, see, feel. This in and of itself is not "evil" but resulted in the fall of one man [taste - And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, see - and that it was pleasant to the eyes; feel/feelings - a tree to be desired; hear - she heard that their eyes would be opened and they would be as gods - touch - God hath said that ye shall not eat f it, neither shall ye touch it - she added to the word God spoke] and as a result of that disobedience - sin entered the world and death by sin; and this passed upon ALL men. Sin was in the world even before the law but man did not know it was sin until the law . . . (Romans 5:12,13) When he is born of the Spirit - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Did man now loose his five senses? His base characteristic to live by his senses because now a different nature - one that is divine - was created in him? If we believe that there is the flesh nature in man and the Spirit in man - do we disregard God's instructions to walk by the Spirit instead of those base impulses that we have? Do we have the true desire to always walk by the Spirit? When Jesus said: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect - Did he think that was possible at that time and if so why did he die? What is the purpose of grace? Why do we need the Comforter to lead us, guide and strengthen us? Why is it that when we are weak - He is strong?

 

[Skinski7]

I just can't see where I am teaching that evil emanates from all material things nor a true God and a lesser God. Men are comprised of "flesh" - are they not? That which is born of the flesh is flesh. A man in the flesh lives his life according to his five senses - by what he can touch, taste, hear, see, feel. This in and of itself is not "evil" but resulted in the fall of one man [taste - And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, see - and that it was pleasant to the eyes; feel/feelings - a tree to be desired; hear - she heard that their eyes would be opened and they would be as gods - touch - God hath said that ye shall not eat f it, neither shall ye touch it - she added to the word God spoke] and as a result of that disobedience - sin entered the world and death by sin; and this passed upon ALL men. Sin was in the world even before the law but man did not know it was sin until the law . . . (Romans 5:12,13) When he is born of the Spirit - That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Did man now loose his five senses? His base characteristic to live by his senses because now a different nature - one that is divine - was created in him? If we believe that there is the flesh nature in man and the Spirit in man - do we disregard God's instructions to walk by the Spirit instead of those base impulses that we have? Do we have the true desire to always walk by the Spirit?

First of all you did not answer my very clear question in regards to how you are defining sin when you ask "do you sin." When you say "we all fail" what do you mean by that? Do you mean a willful act of rebellion where one does evil knowingly or do you mean doing the wrong thing due to ignorance?

Secondly ,you are depending on the theology of men to in order to find answers for your questions.

Matt Slick is a 5 Point Calvinist of the Reformed Tradition. He upholds the teaching of Augustine on both Presdestination and the Sin Nature and thus everything he says will be interpreted according to that lense. Are you a 5 Point Calvinist too?

What Matt Slick will never tell you is that Augustine used the misinterpretation of Romans 5:12 which is found in the Latin Vulgate where it says "in whom" instead of "because of" and thus concluded that all human beings were present in the loins of Adam and thus sinned with him and therefore both corrupted and condemned with him. You will find that explained in the video I linked above or if you want further information, I will lay it all out here as I have it all documented in my papers.

Matt Slick will never tell you that because Matt Slick is himself a gnostic. He may reject many of the tenets of Manichaeism just like Augustine did but he holds the basic fundamental. The basic fundamental being the dual nature of man.

Matt Slick teaches this...

• Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

In other words human beings are born disabled from being able to obey God (sin is in the flesh). Human beings are born evil hating God (sin is in the flesh, matter is evil). Therefore God's grace offsets this depravity and it is irresistible because God is sovereign. Saving grace is only issues to a predetermined elect and these elect cannot resist the grace that will save them. Jesus only died for those who will be saved because he only paid the sin debt owed for those people. The elect will persevere to the end ultimately but in the mean time they may fall into grevious sin (sinning while saved which is pure dualism).

Thus Matt Slicks doctrine is in utter denial of what Jesus was teaching on the Sermon in the Mount. Jesus taught that we are to be perfect as God is perfect within the context of moral perfection and inward purity. An inwardly pure person does not "fall into grevious sin" like Matt Slick teaches. Grevious sin is a manifestion of a defiled heart in rebellion to God and salvation and defilement do not co-exist. We either serve God or we serve the devil, we don't keep switching masters by serving both. Matt Slick is a minister of Satan who is transformed into a minister or righteousness, in other words he is but a savage wolf in sheep clothes.

Matt Slick would call me satanic because I contend that we have to cease from rebellion before God will forgive us. Matt Slick thinks that is impossible because of the birth nature of man and thus the sin does not have to stop because it cannot stop. He is a defender of sin while I am a defender of righteousness.

When Jesus said: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect - Did he think that was possible at that time and if so why did he die? What is the purpose of grace? Why do we need the Comforter to lead us, guide and strengthen us? Why is it that when we are weak - He is strong?

So you are implying that Jesus having to die is proof that He thought it was not possible that we live up to the standards set forth in the Sermon on the Mount? Jesus is implying no such thing. He is very plain in His words.

Jesus plainly taught a standard and he also taught that we must live up to that standard. He didn't say anywhere that we couldn't. It is men who say we can't because ultimately they don't want to.

Why did Jesus have to die? He had to die because it is through his blood that we can be cleansed of our past sins. It wasn't to somehow enable an ability we do not have, no, it was to deal with that which we cannot undo.

If I am to murder someone but then forsake murder and live by the law that previous murder is not undone. Condemnation cannot be undone by obeying God. It is only through God's grace and mercy that our past sins can be washed away and thus when we approach God in repentance and faith with true heart we can be cleansed of all unrighteousness. God is willing to forgive us our sins.

The death of Christ and even His life has NOTHING to do with a substitution where He obeyed in your place whereby you don't have to anymore. That is the deception people are believing in and the Bible simply does not teach that. Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and make us pure by which we are no longer sinning unto death wherefore God is then willing to forgive us our sins. That is what the Bible teaches. Yet that message is hated today because it means people have to cease from sin and people do not want to do that.

In not wanting to cease from sin doctrines have been invented which allow people to continue in their sins and claim they are saved. That doctrine is very easy to swallow because it caters to the carnal man. The old man does not want to die and thus doctrine which teaches that the old man "cannot die" is very tasty for sinners.

Jesus is strong because He overcame by the power of the Spirit. We who are weak are to be strengthened in following His example. Strength is found in abiding in the Spirit of His life. It works. That doesn't mean we are incapable of obey God, we are capably and we do it by abiding in the Spirit. If we do that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. There is no "we will fail" so "trust in Jesus while I sin every day in thought, word and deed." NO! We will succeed if we TRULY abide in Him. Jesus taught victory not constant defeat.

 

[Skinski7]

Only in Skinski7ism.

Eph 2:3 - "we were by nature (Gr. phusei - naturally; by birth-Gal 2:15); objects of wrath.

Ps 51:5 - "I was brought forth (born) in iniquity (sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, perverseness).

The Bible does not teach a spiritual "neutrality" at birth (Ps 58:3).

The Bible teaches that we are born objects of God's wrath, in sin, which is spiritual death.

Eph 2:1 - "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins."

Eph 2:4-5 - ". . .God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead
in transgressions. . ."

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . ."

Mt 8:21-22 - "Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'
But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.' "

So what was dead? Not their bodies.

All are born spiritually dead. (Eph 2:3; Ps 51:5).

That is why no one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:3),

raised from spiritual death to spiritual life, Holy Spirit eternal life.

Peter in teaching that we are to be found without spot and blameless made a reference to people like Elin...

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Elin will take little tidbits of Paul's writings and isolate those tidbits out of their context and then use them as proof texts to substantiate the error of the wicked.

Here is an example...

Elin says, "The Bible teaches that we are born objects of God's wrath, in sin, which is spiritual death."

Then as proof Elin reference...

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Not a single one of these verses say a single word about being "born dead." They all say "were dead."

Elin also references this verse...

Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Like the aforementioned verses, these say not a word about being "born dead." Jesus is simply making a contrast between Himself who has life and those going their own way who don't. In other words He is teaching follow Him first, don't put it off to do something else.

Elin says, "All are born spiritually dead."

Then as proof Elin references...

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

That verse does not say anything about being "born spiritually dead." The verse says "were by nature children of wrath."

If one is to look up the word Nature in the Greek they would find this...

[Strongs]
Nature - G5449 - phusis
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

If one is to interpret scripture with scripture this can be found...

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Our nature is that which develops over time. We can develop a sinful nature or a righteous nature. We are not born either way. If we were "born sinners" then the Gentiles could not "do by nature" that which showed the work of the law written in their hearts.

A Calvinist will never show people that. They generally try and impress people with big words and lots of proof texts but all it is a show of deception.

Here is another proof text Elin used...

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

They just love to isolate that one yet what is the context?

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Psa 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Psa 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Psa 51:18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Psa 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

This is David's cry of lament, his repentance over his sin. It is his godly sorrow working a genuine repentance unto salvation. He is using hyperbole in exclaiming his wretchedness. He says he was shapen in iniquity and in sin did his mother conceive him, he doesn't say that sin was born in him or that he was born with iniquity in him. David is recognising the fact that we was born into a wicked world and was moulded by it.

To take Psalm 51:5 and twist it into a proof text for the notion that we are "born evil" and thus "sin by necessity" and are thus "not really responsible" is very foolish.

Jesus taught...

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Jesus used the example of a little child to teach his disciples as to how they were to approach Him. With the simplicity and open mindedness of a child is what Jesus was expressing. Yet the Calvinist will teach that a little child is totally depraved and hating God. That is not what Jesus taught.

The reason one cannot see the kingdom of God until one is born again is because the kingdom is of the spirit not the natural and one must have their spiritual eyes open to see it. Little children are ignorant and do not have the capacity to understand spiritual things let alone the things of the world. They simply live by their natural passions until such a time as the light of God becomes manifest to them through the light of conscience as their intellect develops. It is only then they can choose to yield or rebel, choose life or death, choose bondage or freedom.

So again the Calvinists make statements and then reference Bible verses as if those verses prove those statement when they do not.

 

[Skinski7]

Except for that small detail, omitted by Skinski7ism, of Paul introducing the "dual nature doctrine"

in the first century, as shown in post #63, immediately above.

Ahh but the thing is he didn't. The doctrine is asserted by twisting Paul's writings just as Peter alluded to in his 2nd Epistle.

Sure the dual nature doctrine existed for John refutes it in his first epistle. John writes...

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

In the above passage John make a clear connection between "deeds" and "profession." The Gnostics would teach that one could be "sinning in the flesh" and yet "saved in spirit" because of their dualist foundation. John says it is not so because he understood salvation as being a manifest reality and that such a thing was impossible, this is why he would later write...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

John taught that the children of God are manifest by them being doers of righteousness and not sinning. It is the children of the devil who are manifest by not doing righteousness and sinning.

The modern wolves snip Romans 7 out of its context to teach that the children of God are not made manifest by being doers of righteousness because they are still carnal and sold under sin. The salvation taught has been twisted into an "abstraction" whereby a sinner can claim "who they are in Christ spiritually" while practically they still sin. It is the same Gnostic doctrine 2000 years later and it has practically taken over all of nominal Christianity. The vast majority of professing Christians are Gnostics and do not even know it.

The early church absolutely repudiated this stuff but today it pretty much goes uncontested due to it gaining such a foothold.

 

[Elin]

What Matt Slick will never tell you is that
Augustine used the misinterpretation of Romans 5:12 which is found
in the Latin Vulgate where it says "in whom" instead of "because of" and thus concluded that all human beings were present in the loins of Adam and thus sinned with him and therefore both corrupted and condemned with him.

Straw man. It's not about Augustine or the Latin Vulgate.

The Latin Vulgate has absolutely no bearing on Paul's writings in the Greek:

Eph 2:3 - "we were by nature (Gr. phusei - naturally; by birth-Gal 2:15); objects of wrath.

Ps 51:5 - "I was brought forth (born) in iniquity (sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, perverseness).

The Bible does not teach a spiritual "neutrality" at birth, either in Paul (Eph 2:3) or the OT (Ps 58:3).

The Bible, both OT and NT, teaches that we are born objects of God's wrath, in sin, which is spiritual death.

Eph 2:1 - "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins."

Eph 2:4-5 - ". . .God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead
in transgressions. . ."

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . ."

Mt 8:21-22 - "Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'
But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.' "

So what was dead? Not their bodies.

Their spirits were dead, from birth (Ps 51:5, 58:3).

All are born spiritually dead. (Eph 2:3; Ps 51:5).

That is why no one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:3),

raised from spiritual death to spiritual life, Holy Spirit eternal life.

Matt Slick is a minister of Satan who is transformed into a minister or righteousness, in other words he is but
a savage wolf in sheep clothes.

Methinks thou art confused about who is the minister of Satan, the savage wolf in sheep's clothing.

"Physician, heal thyself."

 

[Proverbs31lady]

Thank you for sharing this word I am constantly seeking a better understanding of Gods word.

 

[Elin]

Eph 2:3 - "we were by nature (Gr. phusei - naturally; by birth-Gal 2:15);
objects of wrath.

Ps 51:5 - "I was brought forth (born) in iniquity (sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, perverseness).

The Bible does not teach a spiritual "neutrality" at birth (Ps 58:3).

The Bible teaches that we are born objects of God's wrath, in sin, which is spiritual death.

Eph 2:1 - "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins."

Eph 2:4-5 - ". . .God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions. . ."

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . ."

Mt 8:21-22 - "Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'
But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.' "

So what was dead? Not their bodies.

All are born spiritually dead. (Eph 2:3; Ps 51:5).

That is why no one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again

(Jn 3:3), raised from spiritual death to spiritual life, Holy Spirit eternal life.

Elin will take little tidbits of Paul's writings and isolate those tidbits out of their context and then use them as proof texts to substantiate the error of the wicked.

Here is an example...

Elin says, "The Bible teaches that we are born objects of God's wrath, in sin,
which is spiritual death."

Then as proof Elin reference...

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Nice misrepresentation.

Now read again my post quoted above, and this time pay attention to which Scriptures state
we are born in sin, and under God's wrath because of it.

Not a single one of these verses say a single word about being "born dead."
They all say "were dead."

Agreed.

These verses show that the death of unregenerate man is a spiritual death, not at physical death.

Eph 2:3 - "we were by nature (Gr. phusei - naturally; by birth-Gal 2:15); objects of wrath.

Elin says, "All are born spiritually dead."

Then as proof Elin references...

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

That verse does not say anything about being "born spiritually dead."
The verse says

"were by nature children of wrath."

That's a non-responsive FAIL. . .

Does not deal with presentation of Eph 2:3.

Your non-apprehension of the NT is showing.

"Were. . .children of wrath" -- because Paul is addressing believers in Ephesus who were now born again.

"Were by nature (Gr: phusei - "naturally") children of wrath" -- you are born with your nature,
as you are born (phusei) with your Jewishness in Gal 2:15.

Our nature is that which develops over time.

Like a Jew becomes Jewish over time?

Skinski7ism has no apprehension of philosophy, as well as of the Scriptures.

Here is another proof text Elin used...

Psa 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen (formed in the womb) in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

. . .what is the context?

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

This is David's cry of lament, his repentance over his sin.

Agreed.

So how does that change his lament that he was sinful from the womb?

To take Psalm 51:5 and twist it into a proof text for the notion that we are "born evil" and thus "sin by necessity" and are thus "not really responsible"
is very foolish.

And I'm thinkin' not taking Scripture at its word,
but humanly rationalizing it to fit Skinski7ism,
is what is really foolish.

All are born spiritually dead. (Eph 2:3; Ps 51:5).

That is why no one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:3),

raised from spiritual death to spiritual life, Holy Spirit eternal life.

The reason one cannot see the kingdom of God until one is born again is because the kingdom is of the spirit not the natural and one must have their spiritual eyes open to see it.

Please explain how that differs materially from what I stated.

 

[Elin]

Except for that small detail, omitted by Skinski7ism, of Paul introducing the "dual nature doctrine"

in the first century, as shown in post #63 above, here.

Ahh but the thing is he didn't. The doctrine is asserted by twisting Paul's writings

Previously addressed in post #71, immediately above.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Death is passed to all men because all men have sinned. Sin is not passed to all men. We are not born sinners.

To believe that one is born a sinner is to blame the state of one's birth for their sin instead of the one's own choices. That is the danger. Original Sin redefines the nature of man and thus redefines repentance, faith, grace and salvation because those things have to be twisted to fit in with the Original Sin doctrine.

If human beings are "born sinners" and are thus "sin by necessity" then it is impossible to repent and forsake sin. Repentance must be redefined to be a "confession of sinfulness."

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression - . . for the judgment was by one to condemnation . . . Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation - because of Adam's fall all men are condemned

No - to say that one is born a sinner is to say man is born unto comdemnation that is why we are told we have to be born again of the Spirit. Original sin does not redefine the nature of man for man is by nature the children of wrath. Doesn't mean that it is a necessity that we sin but it is in our nature. We as humans have characteristics that are born within us - you can ask a 3 year old if they did something and they will say no even though they did do it - there is a lie - have they been taught to lie? or was it a natural instinct? Does it negate our choices? Of course not - we still have the choice and the responsibility to choose wisely. Repentance is for the remission of sins. Repentance when a person turns to God, confesses Jesus as Lord - he/she is released from the penalty of sins, i.e. death. His/Her sins have been pardoned or let go as if they had never been committed.

If human beings are disabled from obedience to God (due to being born a sinner) then faith cannot be connected to obedience and thus faith is redefined to simply be "trust."

Which is the reason Jesus said we must be born again. Once one hears the word and believes what he hears - confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead that person has repented and is born of the Spirit. The definition of faith - pistis - IS complete trust and confidence.

Grace then must be redefined to include an "offset to inability" and thus the burden in regards to obedience to God falls upon God to "make us obey." Thus "saved by grace through faith" is twisted into meaning "trust in what God has done and is going to do absent any requirement upon us having to do anything because we can't do anything (due to disability)."

Our salvation is a gift of God - it is given by grace through our faith in Jesus Christ. Grace is not given to offset inability and never does our obedience rely upon God to MAKE us obey. Grace is given because of our weakness - My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. If we thought that we could do all this own our own through our own power we could boast and we could exalt ourselves above measure but we humbly come to God knowing our weaknesses.

Out of all this comes salvation as being viewed in the abstract. Salvation is redefined to be purely positional and it is upon this foundation that theologians invent doctrines like "imputed righteousness of Christ" and "Penal Substitution."

Half of the expressions you use I don't even know!! LOL . . "imputed righteousness of Christ" - Is not righteousness imputed unto us if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead? [Romans 4:22-25]

What do you mean by "fail at time"? Do you mean make a mistake or misjudgment or do you mean to do evil when you know it is evil? There is a big difference there.

Well, I sure don't mean we can live and wallow in sin although that's how you have taken this whole thread!

Jesus said "be perfect" and you say "I will fail sometimes" which is obviously a denial of the ability to be perfect. Yet Jesus is speaking of "moral perfection" not being perfect as in never making a mistake. Moral perfection is an act of our will, we choose to obey God from the heart and through doing that we will not do evil.

So what exactly do you mean by "we will fail?" Do you mean sinning ignorantly (thus not rebellion) or do you mean sinning willingly (rebellion)?

If I had the ability to be perfect to begin with - why the command - ye must be born again? If I had the ability to be perfect - we could have just left the law and lived by the law and obeyed every bit of it if "we just set our minds to it" - Jesus would not have had to come to redeem us because it was already in us to be perfect - we would not need grace . . I can stump my toe - my initial response [by nature] is @%^* - and that usually does come out and I say a quick forgive me and go on about my business. Now is that sinning ignorantly or sinning willingly? I think it was just a result of me being a human being reacting to something that happened. When I have unwanted thoughts - thoughts of negativity or thoughts against someone I stop and mentally fight with myself - casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God. [2 Cor. 10:5] I go to the word and apply the word to myself IOW, I renew my mind - I put off the old and put on the new - but just because I have done it once doesn't mean that I won't have to do it again - even if it's just five minutes later!

Jeremiah is speaking of...

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

The heart of natural man is not wicked. It is the heart of those who depart from the Lord and go their own way. A choice is involved, an act of rebellion.

Jeremiah v5 & 6 - talks about the man who trust in man and whose heart departeth from the LORD - v7 & 8 with the man that trusts in the LORD and whose hope the LORD is - then comes v9 & 10 explaining how the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. So one can rely on himself - one can rely on the LORD but ONLY God can search the heart and know the intent of the heart of man.

Vice and virtue are premised off choices made not a birth state. Rebellion is not rebellion if there is no choice. If I program a robot to disregard any further commands it is not an act of rebellion, the robot is simply following internal directions. Likewise a human being doesn't sin because they were born with an internal sin program, a human being sins because they choose to and in so doing a natural disposition to sin develops (ie. a sin nature).

To blame sin on birth is to ultimately blame God for sin instead of taking responsibility for our own choices.

I don't agree.

Well what do you mean by "sinless"? Do you mean the "rebellion having stopped" or "never making a mistake"?

Is a just, devout and blameless person sinless? It depends on how you are defining sin.

I define sin within the context of "rebellion" and "obedience." Rebellion is "sin unto death" and that must stop for their can be no forgiveness IN sin. Yet we all make misjudgements and mistakes we are to receive correction for such things, apply such correction and move on. The Bible teaches...

Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Yet that man is till just because his heart is pure. There is no rebellion in that falling.

So how do you define sin?

I define sin as disobedience - I believe once a man is born again of God's Spirit that man is just; i.e. justified. That man in Proverbs 24:16 is a just man - a man that has been justified by faith in Jesus Christ and so yes - his heart is pure.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

First of all you did not answer my very clear question in regards to how you are defining sin when you ask "do you sin." When you say "we all fail" what do you mean by that? Do you mean a willful act of rebellion where one does evil knowingly or do you mean doing the wrong thing due to ignorance?

I don't think any one can do wrong due to ignorance - if we have been a Christian for any length of time - we know what His word says. "Willful act of rebellion" - that one is hard. If I am in a conversation and the conversation turns to gossip about someone and I get wrapped up in it and carry on . . . at that point I am sinning. When the conversation breaks up and I recognize what I just did - I immediately ask forgiveness. Was that a "willful act of rebellion"?

Secondly ,you are depending on the theology of men to in order to find answers for your questions.

Matt Slick is a 5 Point Calvinist of the Reformed Tradition. He upholds the teaching of Augustine on both Presdestination and the Sin Nature and thus everything he says will be interpreted according to that lense. Are you a 5 Point Calvinist too?

What Matt Slick will never tell you is that Augustine used the misinterpretation of Romans 5:12 which is found in the Latin Vulgate where it says "in whom" instead of "because of" and thus concluded that all human beings were present in the loins of Adam and thus sinned with him and therefore both corrupted and condemned with him. You will find that explained in the video I linked above or if you want further information, I will lay it all out here as I have it all documented in my papers.

Matt Slick will never tell you that because Matt Slick is himself a gnostic. He may reject many of the tenets of Manichaeism just like Augustine did but he holds the basic fundamental. The basic fundamental being the dual nature of man.

Matt Slick teaches this...

• Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

In other words human beings are born disabled from being able to obey God (sin is in the flesh). Human beings are born evil hating God (sin is in the flesh, matter is evil). Therefore God's grace offsets this depravity and it is irresistible because God is sovereign. Saving grace is only issues to a predetermined elect and these elect cannot resist the grace that will save them. Jesus only died for those who will be saved because he only paid the sin debt owed for those people. The elect will persevere to the end ultimately but in the mean time they may fall into grevious sin (sinning while saved which is pure dualism).

Thus Matt Slicks doctrine is in utter denial of what Jesus was teaching on the Sermon in the Mount. Jesus taught that we are to be perfect as God is perfect within the context of moral perfection and inward purity. An inwardly pure person does not "fall into grevious sin" like Matt Slick teaches. Grevious sin is a manifestion of a defiled heart in rebellion to God and salvation and defilement do not co-exist. We either serve God or we serve the devil, we don't keep switching masters by serving both. Matt Slick is a minister of Satan who is transformed into a minister or righteousness, in other words he is but a savage wolf in sheep clothes.

Matt Slick would call me satanic because I contend that we have to cease from rebellion before God will forgive us. Matt Slick thinks that is impossible because of the birth nature of man and thus the sin does not have to stop because it cannot stop. He is a defender of sin while I am a defender of righteousness.

I used Matt Slick because his explanation of Gnosticism was one that spoke plainly and simply. I did not know that he was a Calvinist. We either serve God or we serve the devil - Again I have to say that we cannot have two Fathers - we are either God's children or children of wrath. Once we are God's child - we are His child. Our heart's desire is to be perfect. Our heart's desire is to be pure - And it is God who knows the heart of man. When I let a foul word slip - when I get caught up in gossip - if I tell a lie - if I fail to renew my mind - I still belong to God and these things are brought to my attention usually immediately and I ask forgiveness.

So you are implying that Jesus having to die is proof that He thought it was not possible that we live up to the standards set forth in the Sermon on the Mount? Jesus is implying no such thing. He is very plain in His words.

Jesus plainly taught a standard and he also taught that we must live up to that standard. He didn't say anywhere that we couldn't. It is men who say we can't because ultimately they don't want to.

Jesus died for the ungodly. When Jesus taught - Be ye therefore perfect was he meaning right then in the present or in a future tense as in and through growth and walk? Be is in the "future tense" meaning an action that will take place in the future and the mood of the verb is indicative which is a statement of fact. The Greek word for "perfect" is teleios - meaning brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect A. consummate human integrity and virtue B. of men 1) full grown, of full age, mature - So it is with a look towards the end as in become or becoming perfect - growing in wisdom and knowledge.

Why did Jesus have to die? He had to die because it is through his blood that we can be cleansed of our past sins. It wasn't to somehow enable an ability we do not have, no, it was to deal with that which we cannot undo.

Jesus Christ died in our place. He paid the penalty for our sins. Jesus Christ died for the ungodly. - Jesus Christ had to die and be raised in order for us to be born again of God's Spirit. And the gift of holy Spirit was made available when he ascended to be our teacher - our guide and to strengthen us in the inner man.

If I am to murder someone but then forsake murder and live by the law that previous murder is not undone. Condemnation cannot be undone by obeying God. It is only through God's grace and mercy that our past sins can be washed away and thus when we approach God in repentance and faith with true heart we can be cleansed of all unrighteousness. God is willing to forgive us our sins.

John 3:18 . . . he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Christ shed blood is for the remission of sins [Matthew 26:8] I don't think I ever said that we are saved by anything but God's grace - Salvation is a gift of God by His grace through our faith in Jesus Christ.

The death of Christ and even His life has NOTHING to do with a substitution where He obeyed in your place whereby you don't have to anymore. That is the deception people are believing in and the Bible simply does not teach that. Jesus gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and make us pure by which we are no longer sinning unto death wherefore God is then willing to forgive us our sins. That is what the Bible teaches. Yet that message is hated today because it means people have to cease from sin and people do not want to do that.

Again You keep saying that I am saying that we don't have to obey anymore . . . I have not said that we don't have to obey . . . . We should all strive to obey and cease from sin and I believe for that is what most Christians want also - that is what emanates from the heart of a Christian.

In not wanting to cease from sin doctrines have been invented which allow people to continue in their sins and claim they are saved. That doctrine is very easy to swallow because it caters to the carnal man. The old man does not want to die and thus doctrine which teaches that the old man "cannot die" is very tasty for sinners.

Jesus is strong because He overcame by the power of the Spirit. We who are weak are to be strengthened in following His example. Strength is found in abiding in the Spirit of His life. It works. That doesn't mean we are incapable of obey God, we are capably and we do it by abiding in the Spirit. If we do that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. There is no "we will fail" so "trust in Jesus while I sin every day in thought, word and deed." NO! We will succeed if we TRULY abide in Him. Jesus taught victory not constant defeat.

I know we are not "incapable" of obeying God - I know that we are to be led by the Spirit and we won't fulfill the lust of the flesh but I also know that IF, IF, I sin - I have the promise of forgiveness. I trust scripture when it tells me that the Spirit of God dwells in me and that the Spirit of Christ dwells in me - that is incorruptible seed - I am sealed, I am marked, I am God's.

 

[Skinski7]

Elin,

For all your words you cannot post a single verse or passage which clearly teaches that human beings are "born" spiritually dead. Your premise is purely one of rhetoric upon which you quote a few verses as if they prove that rhetoric. You are simply unable to refute anything I have written which is clearly evident in everything you have posted above. Name calling is what you have left and is what you excel at.

Your religion is pretty much this...

1. God demands that people obey Him. God demands holiness.
2. People are incapable of fulfilling this demand because they are born sinful.
3. God condemns people for not doing that which they are unable to do.
4. God elects a few from these disabled people and enables them to trust him yet still leaves them in a corrupted disabled state.
5. God has pent up anger which must be satisfied in some way, so he sends his son to die and punishes him instead of those he elected.
6. God then pretends that the corrupted and disabled people he elected are righteous like his son.
7. Thus with the wrath issue settled and by pretending that the corrupted and disabled people are righteous he allows them into the kingdom when they die.

Surely people must have lost their minds to believe in such lunacy.

 

[Skinski7]

I don't think any one can do wrong due to ignorance - if we have been a Christian for any length of time - we know what His word says. "Willful act of rebellion" - that one is hard. If I am in a conversation and the conversation turns to gossip about someone and I get wrapped up in it and carry on . . . at that point I am sinning. When the conversation breaks up and I recognize what I just did - I immediately ask forgiveness. Was that a "willful act of rebellion"?[/QUOTE]

It's very simple. A willful act of rebellion is doing what one knows is wrong consciously. Can one be drawn into error without rebelling? I am sure. At what stage does such a drawing become rebellion? Well that is a matter of the heart which is why we are warned in the Bible to put on the whole armour of God. If we are complacent and do not remain on guard it is very easy to be drawn away.

Clearly we have an advocate if we sin ignorantly but not for willful sin. Why not for willful sin? Well because Jesus Christ is our high priest who purges sin at the root when we approach God in the right manner, if after having been purged we go off and willfully transgress then we defile ourselves once more. Jesus doesn't wash us that we go get ourselves filthy again, He washes us to stay clean.

We can clearly see this as true because of how the writer of the Hebrews explained it.
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This passage is presented with the context of one who has approached God with a true heart and has been cleansed and has thus has received a knowledge of the truth. To willfully sin after having been cleansed by the blood of Christ is to treat that cleansing with contempt, as if it is something that we can use over and over again. It is to treat that cleansing as a common thing.

Also notice verse 25 as to how important it is for Christian's to support each other. That is so we don't fall away. We are to surround ourselves with brethren for strength.

John is not contradicting that when he writes...

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

John is not speaking of trampling the blood there. Rather he is speaking of non-willful sin. Perhaps sinning by being drawn into something like gossip like you alluded to. A place where a Christian lets their guard down and does something wrong without really thinking. John is most assuredly not talking about lusting after women, fornication, drunkeness, unjust hatred etc. for those things all flow out of a heart which bears iniquity, a heart which is defiled.

There are many people who use 1Joh 2:1 as a means of pardon when they have never been truly redeemed, never truly escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Yet the dual nature doctrine is at the root of many a false conversion and a thus a false salvation. If people believe that they are "sinful from birth" and thus sinning is the natural state of a human being then their minds will shutdown the notion that one can truly escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. They will believe that the old man cannot die, rather the old man can only be gradually reformed. By introducing this into the mind Satan is basically able to innoculate someone against the truth.

Two natures in man? There is but one nature and it can go either way. We can partake in the divine nature through being reborn or we can partake in the beast nature which is self serving. Unfortunately most people worship the beast and receive its mark in their mind and are marked in what they produce which is iniquity.

Temptation will always exist because the flesh body has natural passions, natural desires. Temptation is common to man and even Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. Jesus did not have a dual nature and nor do we.

Again You keep saying that I am saying that we don't have to obey anymore . . . I have not said that we don't have to obey . . . . We should all strive to obey and cease from sin and I believe for that is what most Christians want also - that is what emanates from the heart of a Christian.

You are right, you have not stated that we don't have to obey. Yet you have stated, "we will fail" which implies we "cannot" obey. Is the Christian life really to be one of defeat? Are we born again to fail? Or are we born again to overcome?

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I believe it is possible to do the will of God because greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. If we believe we are doomed to fail then won't we fail? I think so. We are to put the armour of God on to endure and overcome, not to fail and confess.

Jesus Christ died in our place. He paid the penalty for our sins. Jesus Christ died for the ungodly. - Jesus Christ had to die and be raised in order for us to be born again of God's Spirit. And the gift of holy Spirit was made available when he ascended to be our teacher - our guide and to strengthen us in the inner man.

Is that true? Did Jesus Christ die in your place?

If Jesus died in your place then why did Jesus teach that we must die?

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

The cross is an instrument of death.

Did Jesus die in the place of Paul? Or did Paul follow Christ's example and die with Christ?

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Can you find anywhere in the Bible where it is taught that "Jesus died in our place"? I can't. I can find where the Bible teaches that Jesus died on our behalf but not in our place.

Did Jesus really pay the penalty for our sins? Where does the Bible teach that?

How is a debt being forgiven when that debt is still being paid for in full? If Jesus paid the penalty due for sin then God is not forgiving sin.

What if instead of Jesus paying a sin debt He was instead offering Himself on behalf of sinners as a means by which people could approach God whereby sin would be actually forgiven and not paid for? That is what the book of Hebrews teaches.

The book of Hebrews goes into great depth about the death of Christ and His blood. It says not a single word on Jesus paying the penalty for your sins. The penalty for sin is death, spiritual death. Physical death is a result of the curse, a result of being kicked out of the garden and being denied access to the Tree of Life but physical death is not the penalty for sin, a result of sin yes but no the penalty.

The penalty of sin is spiritual death, being cut off from God. Jesus was not cut off from God. Jesus never spiritually died. God did not punish Jesus as a sinner. God would be unust if He did that. It is not justice to punish an innocent with the penalty for the guilty and then let the guilt go free. That is not justice.

Jesus was raised from the dead as a pattern of the new birth by which we overcome sin. Spiritual life follows the death of the old man. That which is old must pass away so that which is new can be born. New wine is not put in an old wine vessel. The resurrection of Jesus also proves that He has the power over the grave and thus we can believe that we will also be resurrected to life if we follow Him.

Jesus gave Himself on our behalf that we might follow His example. Jesus gave Himself to redeem us from all iniquity and to make us pure. Jesus did not give Himself to pay our sin debt. God freely forgives our sin debt if we approach God seeking cleansing by the blood of Jesus Christ.

The notion that He "paid our penalty" and "died in our place" is a horrific misrepresentation invented during the Protestant Reformation. You will not not that teaching in the Bible. Sure people can pick some verses and rip them out of their context but what are those verses really saying?

Think about it.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It's very simple. A willful act of rebellion is doing what one knows is wrong consciously. Can one be drawn into error without rebelling? I am sure. At what stage does such a drawing become rebellion? Well that is a matter of the heart which is why we are warned in the Bible to put on the whole armour of God. If we are complacent and do not remain on guard it is very easy to be drawn away.

Clearly we have an advocate if we sin ignorantly but not for willful sin. Why not for willful sin? Well because Jesus Christ is our high priest who purges sin at the root when we approach God in the right manner, if after having been purged we go off and willfully transgress then we defile ourselves once more. Jesus doesn't wash us that we go get ourselves filthy again, He washes us to stay clean.

We can clearly see this as true because of how the writer of the Hebrews explained it.
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

We draw near with a true heart full of assurance - for he is faithful that promised - What did he promise? - that whosoever believes shall have everlasting life - and that as many as receive him [Jesus Christ] have been given the power to becomes the sons of God

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. This passage is presented with the context of one who has approached God with a true heart and has been cleansed and has thus has received a knowledge of the truth. To willfully sin after having been cleansed by the blood of Christ is to treat that cleansing with contempt, as if it is something that we can use over and over again. It is to treat that cleansing as a common thing.

if we sin wilfully - How else does a person sin especially if they know the word? There is no more sacrifice for sins because Jesus Christ was the one and only sacrifice that cleansed us from all unrighteousness. We, even as sons/daughters will face a judgment for things done in this body whether good or bad - those things done will either be burned and we will suffer loss of rewards or they will remain and we will gain rewards but we ourselves will be saved. [1 Cor. 3:10-15] Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong. [Col. 3:25] God will not play favorites - nor will he devalue the good deeds of those who struggled and endured in the faith by giving the same reward to those who did not endure. Sinful behavior also negatively impacts a person's relationship with the Lord in this life. Godly behavior is very important, both now and for the future . . . Like I said - I believe we should walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Christ will be ashamed of "carnal Christians" [Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26; 1 John 2:28], and they may "lose" what they have worked for (2 John 8) or even be punished (1 Thess. 4:6); the Lord will not ignore people's sins. So all the more should we endeavor to walk by the Spirit . . . . I told you I do not condone sinning -

Also notice verse 25 as to how important it is for Christian's to support each other. That is so we don't fall away. We are to surround ourselves with brethren for strength.

I agree

John is not contradicting that when he writes...

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

John is not speaking of trampling the blood there. Rather he is speaking of non-willful sin. Perhaps sinning by being drawn into something like gossip like you alluded to. A place where a Christian lets their guard down and does something wrong without really thinking. John is most assuredly not talking about lusting after women, fornication, drunkeness, unjust hatred etc. for those things all flow out of a heart which bears iniquity, a heart which is defiled.

All people have weaknesses in their lives - Christians have weaknesses - God's grace is sufficient for God's strength is made in weakness - do we continue in sin through our weaknesses? NO - we always fight - we always get up -

There are many people who use 1Joh 2:1 as a means of pardon when they have never been truly redeemed, never truly escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Yet the dual nature doctrine is at the root of many a false conversion and a thus a false salvation. If people believe that they are "sinful from birth" and thus sinning is the natural state of a human being then their minds will shutdown the notion that one can truly escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. They will believe that the old man cannot die, rather the old man can only be gradually reformed. By introducing this into the mind Satan is basically able to innoculate someone against the truth.

The old man does not die until actual death - the old man has to be put off continually -

Two natures in man? There is but one nature and it can go either way. We can partake in the divine nature through being reborn or we can partake in the beast nature which is self serving. Unfortunately most people worship the beast and receive its mark in their mind and are marked in what they produce which is iniquity.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh - flesh has certain characteristics and is enmity against God. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. - partakers of the divine nature - having the characteristics of God. One person with two characteristics that lust one against the other.

Temptation will always exist because the flesh body has natural passions, natural desires. Temptation is common to man and even Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. Jesus did not have a dual nature and nor do we.

You are right, you have not stated that we don't have to obey. Yet you have stated, "we will fail" which implies we "cannot" obey. Is the Christian life really to be one of defeat? Are we born again to fail? Or are we born again to overcome?

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I believe it is possible to do the will of God because greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. If we believe we are doomed to fail then won't we fail? I think so. We are to put the armour of God on to endure and overcome, not to fail and confess.

I believe that we have weaknesses - we are to put on the armour of God to endure and overcome - will we always have that armour on? Or will we at times become complacent - even though we should always be on our toes - so to speak?

Is that true? Did Jesus Christ die in your place?

If Jesus died in your place then why did Jesus teach that we must die?

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

The cross is an instrument of death.

Did Jesus die in the place of Paul? Or did Paul follow Christ's example and die with Christ?

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Can you find anywhere in the Bible where it is taught that "Jesus died in our place"? I can't. I can find where the Bible teaches that Jesus died on our behalf but not in our place.

Did Jesus really pay the penalty for our sins? Where does the Bible teach that?

How is a debt being forgiven when that debt is still being paid for in full? If Jesus paid the penalty due for sin then God is not forgiving sin.

What if instead of Jesus paying a sin debt He was instead offering Himself on behalf of sinners as a means by which people could approach God whereby sin would be actually forgiven and not paid for? That is what the book of Hebrews teaches.

The book of Hebrews goes into great depth about the death of Christ and His blood. It says not a single word on Jesus paying the penalty for your sins. The penalty for sin is death, spiritual death. Physical death is a result of the curse, a result of being kicked out of the garden and being denied access to the Tree of Life but physical death is not the penalty for sin, a result of sin yes but no the penalty.

The penalty of sin is spiritual death, being cut off from God. Jesus was not cut off from God. Jesus never spiritually died. God did not punish Jesus as a sinner. God would be unust if He did that. It is not justice to punish an innocent with the penalty for the guilty and then let the guilt go free. That is not justice.

Jesus was raised from the dead as a pattern of the new birth by which we overcome sin. Spiritual life follows the death of the old man. That which is old must pass away so that which is new can be born. New wine is not put in an old wine vessel. The resurrection of Jesus also proves that He has the power over the grave and thus we can believe that we will also be resurrected to life if we follow Him.

Jesus gave Himself on our behalf that we might follow His example. Jesus gave Himself to redeem us from all iniquity and to make us pure. Jesus did not give Himself to pay our sin debt. God freely forgives our sin debt if we approach God seeking cleansing by the blood of Jesus Christ.

The notion that He "paid our penalty" and "died in our place" is a horrific misrepresentation invented during the Protestant Reformation. You will not not that teaching in the Bible. Sure people can pick some verses and rip them out of their context but what are those verses really saying?

Think about it.

Jesus Christ died for the ungodly. Jesus Christ shed his blood for the remission of sin. Jesus Christ justified us, made us righteous, and sanctified us - that is how God sees those that are born again - but it is clear that we shall face a judgment and our intent of heart, first and foremost, should always be to please God.

It is clear from Scripture that it is impossible to live without sinning, but this does not justify sinful behavior. If any Christian has habitual sin in his life, if he is a liar, thief, idolater, drunkard, is angry and bitter or whatever - he should never give up the fight against sin. God wants each Christian to win his war against sin, and He will help anyone who calls on Him to live a holy life.

 

[Elin]

. . .the dual nature doctrine is at the root of many a false conversion and a thus a false salvation.
If people believe that they are "sinful from birth" and thus sinning is the natural state of a human being then their minds will shutdown the notion that one can truly escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. They will believe that the old man cannot die, rather the old man can only be gradually reformed. By introducing this into the mind Satan is basically able to innoculate someone against the truth.

So sorry you do not approve of the way God does it.

Eph 2:3 - "we were by nature (Gr. phusei - naturally; by birth--Gal 2:15) objects of wrath.

We are born with our nature.

We are naturally-born (phusei) objects of wrath.

We are born with our nature which condemns us to wrath,
just as the naturally-born (phusei) Jews in Gal 2:15,
were born Jewish, and did not become Jews over time.

Ps 51:5 - "I was brought forth (born) in iniquity (sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, perverseness).

Scripture couldn't be clearer. . .your problem is simply unbelief.

Two natures in man? There is but one nature and it can go either way.

Scripture couldn't be clearer in its description of the unregenerate sinful nature,
and in its teaching that the unregenerate sinful nature can go only one way.

Ro 8:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

That is why

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked," not the righteous, for there are none righteous
(Gal 3:22; Mt 5:1 w/ 7:11, 19:17), which has been more fully covered here.

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
there is no contradiction, there is only the power of God to salvation.

The scores of objections you mount to the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate man
are based in your human rational inability to reconcile
Ro 8:7-8, 4:5, Eph 2:3 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

And yes, the mercy of God throws "human reason out the window" because it is
based in divine wisdom, which human reason thinks is foolishness (1Co 1:24-25, 3:18-20),
and which you amply demonstrate.

The fundamental foundational flaw of Skinski7ism is unbelief of Ro 8:7-8, 4:5, Eph 2:3.

Jesus did not have a dual nature and nor do we.

So Jesus was not both God and man, had both a divine nature and a human nature?

Are you denying the deity of Christ?

Clearly we have an advocate if we sin ignorantly but not for willful sin.

In the OT, there was no sacrifice for willful, high-handed, defiant sin.
They died with their sin unforgiven.

In the NT, the willful, high-handed, defiant sin is unbelief in Jesus Christ, which rejects
the only sacrifice for sin, and they too will die with their sin unforgiven.

So, yes, while there is no advocate for the NT willful, high-handed, defiant sin of unbelief,
there is forgiveness of sin not done in ignorance, but truly repented of.

Why not for willful sin? Well because Jesus Christ is our high priest who purges sin at the root when we approach God in the right manner, if after having been purged we go off and willfully transgress then we defile ourselves once more.
Jesus doesn't wash us that we go get ourselves filthy again, He washes us to stay clean.

That's the human reasoning of Skinski7ism, that's not the NT.

We can clearly see this as true because of how the writer of the Hebrews explained it.
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This passage is presented with the context of one who has approached God with a true heart and has been cleansed and has thus has received a knowledge of the truth.

The willful sin of v.26 which the writer of Hebrews is addressing is unbelief in Jesus Christ.

The context of the whole book of Hebrews is the consequences of the high-handed, willful,
defiant sin of unbelief in returning to Judaism, as some were contemplating because of the rejection
and persecution of their families and former friends.

The writer of Hebrews exhorts them not to fail to believe as Israel had failed to believe in the past
(3:7--4:13),
but to believe in their new High Priest (4:14--5:10)
exhorting them again regarding the consequences of falling away back into Judaism (5:11--6:12),
showing them why they should believe and hope, because of
the certainty of God's promise (6:13--7:10),
the guarantee of a better covenant, through a superior mediator (7:11--8:13), and
faith in Christ is the same faith as in the OT (8:1--10:18),
exhorting them again to believe and obey their new High Priest,
and reminding them again of the dreadful consequences of lapsing back into Judaism (10:19-39),
with his final exhortation not to lapse back into Judaism in 12:14-28.

The text you quote is his third exhortation in 10:19-39, wherehe
shows the consequences of falling away from faith in Christ back into Judaism
will be death with their sin unforgiven.

Unbelief is the willful sin being addressed in Hebrews, for which there is no sacrifice.

To willfully sin after having been cleansed by the blood of Christ is to treat that cleansing with contempt,

Let's not tweak the Scriptures.
Unbelief is to treat the blood of Christ with contempt (v. 29), not its cleansing.

To commit the high-handed, willful, defiant sin of unbelief after having been cleansed with the blood of Christ, is to treat the blood of Christ with contempt, and to crucify him all over again.

In addition to unbelief of Ro 4:5, 8:7-8; Eph 2:3 in Skinski7ism,

misunderstanding of the nature of high-handed, willful defiant sin in the NT

is set against 1Jn 1:7-10, and asserts only "ignorant" sin can be forgiven.

 

[dcontroversal]

Elin,

For all your words you cannot post a single verse or passage which clearly teaches that human beings are "born" spiritually dead..

O, death, where is thy sting? O, grave, where is thy victory? THE STING of DEATH is SIN; and the strength of sin is the LAW.

Adam sinned willfully which resulted in spiritual death...yes or no?.....
Adam brought sin which brought death....yes or no?
People (according to the bible) will die (in their sins) and a lost state if not forgiven...yes or no?
To die in sin and not be forgiven equals an eternally lost state...yes or no?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.....

However, there does seem to be an undetermined amount of time applied unto all children that keeps them safe under the blood until they have reached the ability to comprehend what it means to be in sin and lost before God in your standing before the throne....as LOST...

David and his first born son from his affair with Bathsheba....I WILL SEE HIM AGAIN.......!

Just a point to ponder....or two......!

 

[Skinski7]

We draw near with a true heart full of assurance - for he is faithful that promised - What did he promise? - that whosoever believes shall have everlasting life - and that as many as receive him [Jesus Christ] have been given the power to becomes the sons of God

God promises a cleansing. Why ignore that?

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

I think you do not allude to it because you don't believe in a once and for all cleansing. You believe in a perpetual cleansing because the sin never stops and thus you are opposed to the notion of a heart being pure.

Thus you say...

It is clear from Scripture that it is impossible to live without sinning, but this does not justify sinful behavior.,

Yes it does because you are teaching that such behaviour cannot stop. If it impossible to stop sinning then we are not responsible for sinning. Sinning is just a calamity instead.

If any Christian has habitual sin in his life, if he is a liar, thief, idolater, drunkard, is angry and bitter or whatever - he should never give up the fight against sin.

So it is permissible to do those things on occasion just so long as it is not a habit? Your sentiment is just for people to keep fighting but that they will never actually be victorious an able to stop?

God wants each Christian to win his war against sin, and He will help anyone who calls on Him to live a holy life.

How is the war won, you just said that it is clear that no-one can live without sinning. Surely the war is not winnable if such is the case.

When Jesus said...

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Was He just toying with that women knowing that she could not actually stop? I think He meant it commanded her to stop sinning. How do people stop serving sin? They stop through the death of the old man, which is something you deny.

The old man does not die until actual death - the old man has to be put off continually.

Is that what Paul taught?

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified with Christ. When?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Why is the old man crucified? That the body of sin be destroyed. Why is the body of sin to be destroyed? That we no longer serve sin.

We are slaves to whom we obey.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Is Paul teaching that it is impossible to live without sinning? He is teaching the complete opposite.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Let not sin reign in our mortal body. How do we not let it reign? Via the crucifixion of the old man. It is meant to be a done deal in a Christian, not something done gradually over time.

Paul speaks very clearly of serving sin or serving righteousness. He make no mention whatsoever of anyone not being able to stop sinning because their flesh is evil. That stuff is in your mind because, like I have stated previously, you are a Gnostic and thus uphold the dualist notions taught in Gnosticism.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh - flesh has certain characteristics and is enmity against God. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. - partakers of the divine nature - having the characteristics of God. One person with two characteristics that lust one against the other.

Is that what the Bible is teaching?

It is the carnal mind which is emnity with God, not the flesh. Jesus came in the flesh, was His flesh at emnity with God?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

If one lives according to their natural passions in disobedience to God then they are carnally and enemies of God. They are brute beasts living like animals.

The sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit. They mortify the deeds of the body and thus shall live.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

There is no two natures at war. There is the flesh body which brings temptation but we are to put on the mind of Christ.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

It is through this process that we cease from sin. That is what Peter taught. We are to no longer live the rest of the time in the flesh to the lusts of men, rather, we are to live to the will of God.

You are clearly defending sin when you say the following...

If any Christian has habitual sin in his life, if he is a liar, thief, idolater, drunkard, is angry and bitter or whatever - he should never give up the fight against sin.

Those things will put anyone in hell. Paul is very clear and addresses those very sins. By taking 1Cor 3 where the context is of unproductive church building and trying to imply that Paul is teaching that one can commit adultery and still enter the kingdom is stretching the text unabashedly.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul is clearly speaking on building the church, not ongoing sinning among Christians. He is not going to say in one place that you can sin and lose rewards and in another place that if you sin you will be cast into hell.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Furthermore in 1Cor 3 Paul warns.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

God will not be mocked. Yet many mock God with this dualist nonsense where they think God winks at sin because sin is somehow necessitated by the flesh body. Again Jesus was in a flesh body and was pure, that is because the flesh is not sinful. Sure Paul might use the term "sinful flesh" but he is using hyperbole not literally teaching that the meat on our bones has actually got sin in it.

Sin is moral. Sin involves choice. Choices involves a the free exercise of the will. If there is no free will then there is no sin because virtue and vice cannot exist apart from a choice made.