You are very correct here. It is very dangerous to develop doctrine from parables.
Two natures of man?
- Thread starter peacefulbeliever
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You are very correct here. It is very dangerous to develop doctrine from parables.
I am not a Gnostic and if I am then so is Paul. The "flesh" lusteth against the "Spirit" and the "Spirit" against the "flesh" - that is a conflict!!
Wonder why God tells us to put off the old man - put on the new man? Why the comparison if there are not two natures . .
I also believe that old temptations lessen as we put off the old and put on the new - I am not saying that we do not have responsibility to walk by the Spirit but I am saying we will not be perfected in the "flesh" - we are perfect through the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ" dwelling in us.
I believe in the dual natures - I do not use it as further rebellion - just as some criminals have the guts to admit - "Yes, I did the crime - I will do the time.
You see you are saying things like this...
You are not understanding that when something has been stated in the past tense but has not happened yet - it is a common Hebrew and Greek idiom called the prophetic perfect. It is when something is stated in the past tense as having already happened to emphasize that it will ABSOLUTELY occur in the future. In Young's Concordance - "The past is frequently used t express the certainty of a future action". In Figures of Speech used in the Bible - [The past tense is used instead of the future] "when the speaker views the action as being as good as done. This is very common in the Divine prophetic utterances where, though the sense is literally future, it is regarded and spoken of as though it were already accomplished in the Divine purpose and determination." The figure is to show the absolute certainly of the things spoken of. Are you saying that you are actually "seated in heavenly places"? You have been "delivered from your body of death"?
I am not teaching that "I can perfect the Spirit" - How can anyone perfect the Spirit? - It is the Spirit of God the Spirit of Christ dwelling inside believers NO ONE can perfect that!!! Yayyyyy!! I am not a Gnostic!
1 John 1 is speaking of our walk - being in "fellowship" with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. When we sin we break "fellowship" with the Father and with his Son. To state it as a comparison - we walk upon a highway - the highway is painted with lines - we stay between the lines - we are in fellowship - when we step outside the lines - we break that fellowship but we are still on the highway. John also said If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Again, there is nothing anyone can do to perfect the spirit born within us.
Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect in the flesh? Was Paul a Gnostic? I haven't denied that fact that we should walk by the Spirit and we wouldn't fulfil the lust of the flesh - And I won't deny that the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to he other : so that you cannot do the things you would or that you WANT to do - [Galatians 5:16,17; Romans 7:15]
Man . . . I haven't told anyone to sin - or that it is okay to sin. I am saying that it is a battle - a fight - a race to run - I am holding to a salvation that God has given me - not one that relies upon ME. Every child of God endeavors to DO righteousness - that "seed" that makes us born of God is incorruptible - does that mean that I am telling people live like the devil and it doesn't matter? Did you hear me say that - forget it you probably did - I hope no one else read that in my post. I am letting people know that it may be hard sometimes and it may not come easy - you on the other hand destroy people by telling them they have to be perfect - I have seen that destroy more baby Christians than anything - people get so discouraged trying so hard to be perfect but yet failing. Yes, they need to take responsibility for when they fall but they need to know also that God loves them and He will help strengthen them and guide them as a Father does his children - He will hold their hand.
I believe the Bible and I believe Jesus. "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God" Who are the pure in heart? Those that through faith God has created in them a new heart by creating in them that new creation created after Him that created it.
Thank you.
Here is Gnostic adherent John MacArthur teaching his heresy.
Is that what Jesus taught? Did Jesus teach anywhere that human sin by necessity due to a birth defect?
Yet if Satan can get people to believe that then they have the perfect excuse why they cannot do what Jesus said because they believe they can't.
Jesus says, "go and sin no more," and the Gnostic replies, "I can't, my flesh is sinful."
Jesus says, "keep my commandments," and the Gnostic replies, "I can't but I trust in you."
Jesus says, "it is the doers who will enter the kingdom," and the Gnostic replies, "we cannot do, that would be works, our flesh is evil, I am a doer in position because Jesus obeyed for me and His obedience it credited to me."
Jesus says, "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God," and the Gnostic replies, "no-one can be pure, If we say we have no sin we are liars, we sin every day in thought, word and deed, but I trust in you Lord because you were punished in my place and you obeyed perfectly in my place."
Jesus says, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham," and the Gnostic replies, "no, no Lord, we are in the flesh and are thus wretched and sold under sin and do what we don't want to do, but we are saved in position because we trust in your finished work where you paid my sin debt and obeyed perfectly in my place, thus God doesn't see what I do, He sees what you did instead."
Jesus said...
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
You see the fruit brought forth by the false teachers today produce converts who remain workers of iniquity. People who are deceived and being deceived. Jesus will reject all these people at the judgment even though they cry out to Him, "Lord, Lord." They never departed from iniquity because they were taught they couldn't and they believed it. Why did they believe it? Probably because they never really wanted to forsake their sin and thus that is why they didn't really believe the words of Jesus in the Bible. It was much easier to have their ears tickled with fiction than be convicted by reality.
The Distinctive Qualities of the True Christian, Part 1
Is that what Jesus taught? Did Jesus teach anywhere that human sin by necessity due to a birth defect?
Yet if Satan can get people to believe that then they have the perfect excuse why they cannot do what Jesus said because they believe they can't.
Jesus says, "go and sin no more," and the Gnostic replies, "I can't, my flesh is sinful."
Jesus says, "keep my commandments," and the Gnostic replies, "I can't but I trust in you."
Jesus says, "it is the doers who will enter the kingdom," and the Gnostic replies, "we cannot do, that would be works, our flesh is evil, I am a doer in position because Jesus obeyed for me and His obedience it credited to me."
Jesus says, "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God," and the Gnostic replies, "no-one can be pure, If we say we have no sin we are liars, we sin every day in thought, word and deed, but I trust in you Lord because you were punished in my place and you obeyed perfectly in my place."
Jesus says, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham," and the Gnostic replies, "no, no Lord, we are in the flesh and are thus wretched and sold under sin and do what we don't want to do, but we are saved in position because we trust in your finished work where you paid my sin debt and obeyed perfectly in my place, thus God doesn't see what I do, He sees what you did instead."
Jesus said...
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
You see the fruit brought forth by the false teachers today produce converts who remain workers of iniquity. People who are deceived and being deceived. Jesus will reject all these people at the judgment even though they cry out to Him, "Lord, Lord." They never departed from iniquity because they were taught they couldn't and they believed it. Why did they believe it? Probably because they never really wanted to forsake their sin and thus that is why they didn't really believe the words of Jesus in the Bible. It was much easier to have their ears tickled with fiction than be convicted by reality.
Sorry, Paul is not contrasting the unregenerate (spiritually dead) with
the regenerate (spiritually raised to eternal life, Jn 3:3),
but is contrasting living by our strength (flesh) with living by the Spirit.
Paul was not aware of his sin until he looked into the mirror of the law (Jas 1:24-25).
He thought he was alive to God, but the law showed him he was actually dead to God.
So when did no life in an animate being become neutral, rather than dead?
Skinski7ism. . .
And you did not answer my questions in the following:
Last edited:
"birth defect?" This is a birth defect? Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when thee is no law.
Jesus says "go and sin no more"; "keep my commandments"; "it is the doers who will enter the kingdom" - The believer complies though at times will fail . . . If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [1 John 1:9] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not - ["go and sin no more"; keep my commandments"; "it is the doers who will enter the kingdom"]. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Again as in 1 John 1:9 God must know that we are going to fail at times.
The believer says that we shall see God for he has made us pure in heart through the Spirit born within us through faith because the heart of natural man "is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" [Jeremiah 17:9] "for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man". . . . [Matt. 15:19,20a]
God looks at those who are born again of His Spirit - gives us the right to call Him - Abba, Father. We can only be born of ONE Father - so God would never say to those that are His - you are of your father the devil . . . .
My house is founded upon a rock - THE ROCK - Christ Jesus. Let me ask you Skinski7 - Are you sinless? Do you ever fall down? Or are you really just like the rest of us and day by day live in obedience to God to the best of your ability?
Last edited:
Your argument is with God dia Paul who wrote the following...
1. When I go to do good I find then a LAW that SIN is present with me.
2. The things I say I am going to do I do not do
3. The things I say I am not going to do I do
What a wretched man I am.......So your theology is a little flawed as it is evident that OUR SPIRIT which is indeed willing is bound in a body of flesh that IS WEAK. As long as you fail to understand this principle you will miss the mark in your theology!
I choose to serve the Master of heaven while keeping in mind the following so as to be humbled and not lifted up..
1. When I go to do good I find a LAW...that sin is present with me.
2. Lord be merciful unto me a sinner
3. Not to think of ourselves more highly than we ought to
4. My salvation is entirely based upon the perfect faith of Christ
5. And all glory goes to the Heavenly Father dia Jesus
6. When I have done all that I can for Christ to consider myself a lowly servant only doing the things I have been COMMANDED to do....
Romans 12:16
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Only when you don't understand the Bible.
Eph 2:3 - "we were by nature (Gr. phusei - naturally; by birth-Gal 2:15); objects of wrath.
Ps 51:5 - "I was brought forth (born) in iniquity (sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, perverseness).
The Bible does not teach a spiritual "neutrality" at birth (Ps 58:3).
The Bible teaches that we are born objects of God's wrath, in sin, which is spiritual death.
Eph 2:1 - "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins."
Eph 2:4-5 - ". . .God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead
in transgressions. . ."
Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . ."
Mt 8:21-22 - "Another disciple said to him, 'Lord, first let me go and bury my father.'
But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.' "
So what was dead? Not their bodies.
All are born spiritually dead. (Eph 2:3; Ps 51:5).
That is why no one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (Jn 3:3),
raised from spiritual death to spiritual life, Holy Spirit eternal life.
Sorry, Paul is not contrasting the unregenerate (spiritually dead) with
the regenerate (spiritually raised to eternal life, Jn 3:3),
but is contrasting living by our strength (flesh) with living by the Spirit.
Paul was not aware of his sin until he looked into the mirror of the law (Jas 1:24-25).
He thought he was alive to God, but the law showed him he was actually dead to God.
Glancing over the disgustion quickly, it appears to me that PeacefulBee has it right. I don't know what the parable of the lost sheep gots to do w/ this one, nor Gnos Ticks.
If you compare the Old Man with the Flesh (sarx) as used by Paul, I think you should be able to convince yourself that there are no distinguishing characteristics; add in as equivalents, "The Members" (don't add "of the body" where the text does not), and sometimes Body, when used as the Body of Sin, as if Sin were a spirit inhabiting a body (its "body" is the flesh).
Here is a proof text for the Old Sinful Nature:
2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through you trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and
were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
Before the Christian trusted Christ as Savior he was a man by nature a son of disobedience and one of the children of wrath. This status is also described as "dead" through sins. The unsaved man lives in the lusts of his flesh, the things his human nature desires to do.
There is this doctrine of transformation in the Bible. When a man trusts Christ as Savior the man receives a transformation/metamorphosis: the old things pass away, but the old things become new things. The New Nature is a transformation of the Old Nature. I would not call this "God's nature," for we never become God (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent -- there can be but one God in the universe). It comes from God, as believers are said to be begotten of God (new birth). By implication there are 2 natures of man, between which stands metamorphosis; or 2 morphai (plural of morphe).
The Christian is able to manifest either nature on occasion. Thus there is teaching on having the transformation effective in the life in Romans 12:1-2 and 2 Cor 3:18. Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the LORD is transforming. The Bible is like a mirror in which we can see ourselves and our Lord Jesus, the glory of God.
This is a very fruitful area to study. It is important to realize that what we are, we are by nature.
If you compare the Old Man with the Flesh (sarx) as used by Paul, I think you should be able to convince yourself that there are no distinguishing characteristics; add in as equivalents, "The Members" (don't add "of the body" where the text does not), and sometimes Body, when used as the Body of Sin, as if Sin were a spirit inhabiting a body (its "body" is the flesh).
Here is a proof text for the Old Sinful Nature:
2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through you trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and
were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
Before the Christian trusted Christ as Savior he was a man by nature a son of disobedience and one of the children of wrath. This status is also described as "dead" through sins. The unsaved man lives in the lusts of his flesh, the things his human nature desires to do.
There is this doctrine of transformation in the Bible. When a man trusts Christ as Savior the man receives a transformation/metamorphosis: the old things pass away, but the old things become new things. The New Nature is a transformation of the Old Nature. I would not call this "God's nature," for we never become God (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent -- there can be but one God in the universe). It comes from God, as believers are said to be begotten of God (new birth). By implication there are 2 natures of man, between which stands metamorphosis; or 2 morphai (plural of morphe).
The Christian is able to manifest either nature on occasion. Thus there is teaching on having the transformation effective in the life in Romans 12:1-2 and 2 Cor 3:18. Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the LORD is transforming. The Bible is like a mirror in which we can see ourselves and our Lord Jesus, the glory of God.
This is a very fruitful area to study. It is important to realize that what we are, we are by nature.
Two natures of man! (not to mention woman)
We indeed are generally born dead. (In sin did my mother conceive me.) Children are not neutral, they go astray from the womb speaking lies we are told. Have you forgotten your childhood, how utterly selfish you were, until you learned to hide your selfishness, which remained, unless & until you got a new birth.
2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; 12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
We indeed are generally born dead. (In sin did my mother conceive me.) Children are not neutral, they go astray from the womb speaking lies we are told. Have you forgotten your childhood, how utterly selfish you were, until you learned to hide your selfishness, which remained, unless & until you got a new birth.
2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; 12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Excellent Post, Elin. You show how human speculation is unbiblical so much of the time.
I will ask you to rethink Romans 7, however. The text does not say that "Paul was merely not aware of his sin." It says that he was alive apart from the law, but when the law came, sin revived (lived again), and "I died" . . . "I am carnal, sold under sin." The passage describes a man who is dead to the law, a Christian, but then the monkey wrench in the Christian life occurred! The law came, sin revived, & he was in a carnal state. When this first happened, he may not have realized that Sin was still with him. "If we say that we have no Sin, we deceive ourselves." "I know that in me, that is in my flesh dwells no good thing." He reports that sin dwells in the flesh of the Christian.
I see no other explanation of Rom 7 except that the Christian has 2 ego's or I's: a ME that hates sin & wants to do God's will, and a ME which is the flesh -- that is to say, 2 natures. The victory comes as described in Rom 8, the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus sets one free from the law of sin & death. In Romans 7, the Christian is not utilizing the power of the Spirit in His carnal state.
Now I realize that those reading this who have never trusted Christ as Savior (demeaning Him to a chance-giver) may find this a Twas brillig & the slithy toves did gyre & gimbol in the wabe.
The "flesh," the old Adamic nature, is the Body in which sin dwells. Miserable man that I am, who shall deliver me from this Body of Death? I thank God through Christ Jesus.
The Christian life is describe in more than one way. It is also described as abiding in Christ & in Gal 2 as "I have been crucified with Christ, & it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. . . . I live in faith . . . in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up for me." It is also described as being filled with the Spirit & filled to all the fullness of God in Ephesians.
But to get started at all, it is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, recognizing that
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.
I don't think you are really thinking about what I am writing Elin. I did not say that Paul was contrasting the unregenerate with the regenerate.
Paul is giving a defence of the law within the context of a charge that one might say the law is sin because it brought death. Look at this passage...
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
This describes the presentation of knowledge to a human being by which he becomes away of right and wrong. Through this knowledge a desire to do wrong is wrought (temptation). A baby cannot be tempted to do evil because they do not know good or evil, a baby is simply subject to natural passions in ignorance.
Without law there can be no sin because sin is a violation of law. Whether that law be the light of conscience or a direct command of God.
If Adam and Eve were never told by God to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge then eating of that tree would not have been an act of rebellion and therefore it would not have been a sin unto death (ye shall surely die). Paul is pointing this out in Romans 7. God gave the law to man so that sin would appear as sin because the law was a guide as to the way to go.
The death Paul is speaking of is a spiritual death. Only moments before he wrote "the wages of sin is death" in Romans 6:23. He is explaining that death in the context of the law. The contrast he made in Rom 6:23 was between the "law of sin and death" and the law of "Spirit of life in Jesus Christ" which he refers to in Romans 8:1-4.
Yes he is also contrasting living by our strength (in the sense of being outwardly governed by the law) with living in the Spirit. Absolutely that is true because it is by living according to the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that we abide in love which is a fulfillment of the law and thus are no longer under the law for we no longer need it. We fulfill the righteous requirements of the law as Paul writes in Romans 8:4.
In your haste, as usual, you completely miss the things I am actually saying and instead you produce twisted bullet points which you then react to.
We are not born dead nor are we born regenerate. We are born neutral having neither chosen to do good nor evil. We have a choice. Your doctrine denies that choice and teaches that human beings sin by necessity and thus are not responsible.
There is no possible way that anyone can be truly sorry for their sin if they believe that their sin is the result of the condition of their birth as opposed to a choice they made. The god you are preaching is an unjust tyrant who condemns unregenerate infants to hell for something they had no choice in.
Both Augustine and John Calvin wrote of un-elect infants being damned. Such thinking is abominable. Such thinking maligns the character of God as being an unjust tyrant. The truth is God loves innocent little babies and does not want them to choose sin as they mature, yet God will not force someone to receive Him because He wants us to love Him (love involves a choice).
You use Romans chapter 7 to refute the words of Jesus.
Doesn't that bother you at all?
Doesn't that raise any kind of question to you?
I quote the very words of Jesus about "doing" and "purity" and you throw Paul's words in Romans 7 up to refute those words. Think about that for a minute.
Was Jesus lying? Was Jesus not being serious? Was Jesus just playing games when he said...
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
You use Romans 7 to say "I can't Jesus."
When Jesus teaches that we must have a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees and then immediately goes onto speak about how outwardly not committing murder or adultery is not enough, that we must not be hating or lusting in the heart too. Jesus then makes this statement within that context...
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Yet you'll throw Romans 7 up to deny Jesus? "Oh we can't be perfect. I am a wretch sold under sin, I cannot do what I want."
You clearly reject Jesus Christ, His words.
Jesus spoke against the Pharisees as having corrupted hearts...
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
The Pharisees put on a good show of religion but underneath all the outward dressing was an inward corruption. He told them to cleanse that which is within and then the outside would be clean. The entire focus of Jesus ministry was about inward righteousness and how it is obtained via abiding in Him, by receiving His words and doing it.
Yet you reject that and claim "I can't" and then throw up Romans 7 as your proof passage.
So not only do you reject the teachings of Jesus but you also imply that Paul was the chief of hypocrites.
Paul wrote...
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Paul also wrote...
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Yet people like you use Romans 7 to say you cannot and are perpetually wretched.
Jesus said, "go and sin no more" and Paul said "depart from iniquity." Yet you reject that because in your mind such a thing is impossible because you are wretched, carnal, sold under sin because you were born a sinner.
Have you ever considered that according to your position that Paul must have been one of the greatest hypocrites in history to tell people to stop sinning and yet he himself couldn't.
1Th 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
Carnal, sold under sin, wretched yet being holy, just and unblameable among the brethren? Have you ever considered that contradiction?
The truth is that Paul is giving emphasis to his words in Romans 7 by using the "Historical Present" grammatical device and therefore is not a hypocrite.
Historical present - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Look it up. Historical Present is used prolifically in Greek literature and therefore it is no surprise that Paul uses it in his letter to the Romans. He is describing a man under the law who is addicted to sin and how apart from the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ he cannot be reformed. Romans 7 is presented within the context of Romans 6 and 8 and presents the dilemma of a sinner that the sinner may understand why the crucifixion of the flesh (Romans 6) is necessary and why we must be raised up into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Romans 8).
To rip Romans 7 out of its context and use it as an excuse as to why one does not have to be just, devout and blameless with the excuse of "I can't" is an abomination.
Jesus stated...
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Jesus meant it. That is God's standard and standard is achieved via submitting ourselves wholeheartedly to the Spirit of God. The rebellion stops.
This video goes into depth the origin of the dual nature doctrine which was introduced into orthodox Christianity in the Fourth Century. It contains a lot of reference material from early Christian writings, all sourced and documented.
[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]
[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]
Death is passed to all men because all men have sinned. Sin is not passed to all men. We are not born sinners.
To believe that one is born a sinner is to blame the state of one's birth for their sin instead of the one's own choices. That is the danger. Original Sin redefines the nature of man and thus redefines repentance, faith, grace and salvation because those things have to be twisted to fit in with the Original Sin doctrine.
If human beings are "born sinners" and are thus "sin by necessity" then it is impossible to repent and forsake sin. Repentance must be redefined to be a "confession of sinfulness."
If human beings are disabled from obedience to God (due to being born a sinner) then faith cannot be connected to obedience and thus faith is redefined to simply be "trust."
Grace then must be redefined to include an "offset to inability" and thus the burden in regards to obedience to God falls upon God to "make us obey." Thus "saved by grace through faith" is twisted into meaning "trust in what God has done and is going to do absent any requirement upon us having to do anything because we can't do anything (due to disability)."
Out of all this comes salvation as being viewed in the abstract. Salvation is redefined to be purely positional and it is upon this foundation that theologians invent doctrines like "imputed righteousness of Christ" and "Penal Substitution."
What do you mean by "fail at time"? Do you mean make a mistake or misjudgment or do you mean to do evil when you know it is evil? There is a big difference there.
Jesus said "be perfect" and you say "I will fail sometimes" which is obviously a denial of the ability to be perfect. Yet Jesus is speaking of "moral perfection" not being perfect as in never making a mistake. Moral perfection is an act of our will, we choose to obey God from the heart and through doing that we will not do evil.
So what exactly do you mean by "we will fail?" Do you mean sinning ignorantly (thus not rebellion) or do you mean sinning willingly (rebellion)?
No. The heart of the wicked man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
Jeremiah is speaking of...
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
The heart of natural man is not wicked. It is the heart of those who depart from the Lord and go their own way. A choice is involved, an act of rebellion.
Vice and virtue are premised off choices made not a birth state. Rebellion is not rebellion if there is no choice. If I program a robot to disregard any further commands it is not an act of rebellion, the robot is simply following internal directions. Likewise a human being doesn't sin because they were born with an internal sin program, a human being sins because they choose to and in so doing a natural disposition to sin develops (ie. a sin nature).
To blame sin on birth is to ultimately blame God for sin instead of taking responsibility for our own choices.
Well what do you mean by "sinless"? Do you mean the "rebellion having stopped" or "never making a mistake"?
Is a just, devout and blameless person sinless? It depends on how you are defining sin.
I define sin within the context of "rebellion" and "obedience." Rebellion is "sin unto death" and that must stop for their can be no forgiveness IN sin. Yet we all make misjudgements and mistakes we are to receive correction for such things, apply such correction and move on. The Bible teaches...
Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Yet that man is till just because his heart is pure. There is no rebellion in that falling.
So how do you define sin?
Summary
The bottom line of everything I have written above is this...
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Genuine salvation is MANIFEST. It is not abstract. There is no dual nature in man whereby we "sin in the flesh" but "not in the spirit." That is gnosticism.
We have purified our souls through obedience to the truth through the Spirit unto genuine love of the brethren. We are thus born again by the word of God, that word implanted within which we abide in with a working faith.
There is no "carnal and sold under sin wretchedness" in such a thing. God's salvation does not leave us carnal and wretched. His salvation is real, it works. He genuinely saves us, He doesn't pretend to save us by having us "saved in position" but "not in reality."
When Jesus spoke of heart purity he meant heart purity. Faith purifies the heart as it says in Acts 15:9. We are made pure by faithfully abiding in the word of Jesus Christ (Joh 15:3).
So please don't fall for the pagan philosophy which has perverted much of Christianity today. Dig deep and study these things. Take the warnings of scripture seriously and seek that truth with all your hearts, soul and mind. Give it all for that treasure in the field. It is a pearl of great price so treat it as such.
Strive to enter in at the strait gate and endure that narrow way for it leads to life.
The bottom line of everything I have written above is this...
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Genuine salvation is MANIFEST. It is not abstract. There is no dual nature in man whereby we "sin in the flesh" but "not in the spirit." That is gnosticism.
We have purified our souls through obedience to the truth through the Spirit unto genuine love of the brethren. We are thus born again by the word of God, that word implanted within which we abide in with a working faith.
There is no "carnal and sold under sin wretchedness" in such a thing. God's salvation does not leave us carnal and wretched. His salvation is real, it works. He genuinely saves us, He doesn't pretend to save us by having us "saved in position" but "not in reality."
When Jesus spoke of heart purity he meant heart purity. Faith purifies the heart as it says in Acts 15:9. We are made pure by faithfully abiding in the word of Jesus Christ (Joh 15:3).
So please don't fall for the pagan philosophy which has perverted much of Christianity today. Dig deep and study these things. Take the warnings of scripture seriously and seek that truth with all your hearts, soul and mind. Give it all for that treasure in the field. It is a pearl of great price so treat it as such.
Strive to enter in at the strait gate and endure that narrow way for it leads to life.
Last edited: