Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Chester]

I grew up being taught and believing myself that anyone who taught or believed in "once saved always saved" also believed that it did not matter how you lived - discipleship and good works were unimportant and don't matter - go out and live in sin because you will get to heaven anyway!

After some wrestling and disputing on this site and in person with people who believe in OSAS I have found that it is not this easy. Not everyone who believes in OSAS believes it does not matter how you live. In fact, some of you on this site who believe in OSAS faithfully teach (and I believe practice) a holy disciplined Godly life.

I quit saying that everyone who believes in OSAS "doesn't care about sinning and just cares about getting to heaven!" Now, I still believe that this is a very real danger with believing OSAS! If someone really believes OSAS is true, it can lead to them thinking it doesn't really matter how they live!


Now, here is my point! On the other side, some who believe in OSAS look at someone who does not believe in OSAS and immediately believe that they depend on works and think they must earn their salvation. Is this a danger with this view? YES! I grew up in an environment that taught and believed and lived that works are what keep you saved! And oh the problems this causes! Dead people who dress right, look right, but inside are hypocrites!

But I no longer believe that works keep a person saved.
I do not believe that I earn my initial salvation and I do not believe that I earn my sanctification.

I believe that initial salvation (justification, or the new birth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.
I believe that ongoing salvation (sanctification, or Christian growth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.
I believe I did not gain initial salvation by earning it, and I do not keep salvation by earning it.



I think that these two statements/accusations are equally useless and unbiblical:
(1) Someone who believes in OSAS does not believe in discipleship and believes it is OK to live a life of sin
(2) Someone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is kept by works and by earning it.


Listen - I am not saying we should not debate and wrestle deeply over this issue of salvation and the gift of eternal life and how it comes to us and what it means! (that is - I think we should keep on debating OSAS issues) Yes, let's look at what Scripture says and talk ("dispute" as KJV Acts 15 says!). But my point here is that using the two accusations above as blanket statements does not help.

I see these two statements (accusations) used quite a bit on this forum and I think it doesn't help anything at all!

Many of you who believe in OSAS vehemently deny statement # 1. I (and some others - not all) who do not believe in OSAS vehemently deny statement # 2.

I suggest that we take at face value what the other says they believe rather than say - "you can't (don't) believe that".

 

[Magenta]

God purifies our hearts by faith. Do we not all agree that we are being sanctified?

By one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

[Utah]

I never encountered a Christian advocating to live a decadent, sinful life because Jesus died for our sins therefore we can do what we want. Where do people get this stuff?

 

[Gr8grace]

I grew up being taught and believing myself that anyone who taught or believed in "once saved always saved" also believed that it did not matter how you lived - discipleship and good works were unimportant and don't matter - go out and live in sin because you will get to heaven anyway!

After some wrestling and disputing on this site and in person with people who believe in OSAS I have found that it is not this easy. Not everyone who believes in OSAS believes it does not matter how you live. In fact, some of you on this site who believe in OSAS faithfully teach (and I believe practice) a holy disciplined Godly life.

I quit saying that everyone who believes in OSAS "doesn't care about sinning and just cares about getting to heaven!" Now, I still believe that this is a very real danger with believing OSAS! If someone really believes OSAS is true, it can lead to them thinking it doesn't really matter how they live!


Now, here is my point! On the other side, some who believe in OSAS look at someone who does not believe in OSAS and immediately believe that they depend on works and think they must earn their salvation. Is this a danger with this view? YES! I grew up in an environment that taught and believed and lived that works are what keep you saved! And oh the problems this causes! Dead people who dress right, look right, but inside are hypocrites!

But I no longer believe that works keep a person saved.
I do not believe that I earn my initial salvation and I do not believe that I earn my sanctification.

I believe that initial salvation (justification, or the new birth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.
I believe that ongoing salvation (sanctification, or Christian growth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.
I believe I did not gain initial salvation by earning it, and I do not keep salvation by earning it.



I think that these two statements/accusations are equally useless and unbiblical:
(1) Someone who believes in OSAS does not believe in discipleship and believes it is OK to live a life of sin
(2) Someone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is kept by works and by earning it.


Listen - I am not saying we should not debate and wrestle deeply over this issue of salvation and the gift of eternal life and how it comes to us and what it means! (that is - I think we should keep on debating OSAS issues) Yes, let's look at what Scripture says and talk ("dispute" as KJV Acts 15 says!). But my point here is that using the two accusations above as blanket statements does not help.

I see these two statements (accusations) used quite a bit on this forum and I think it doesn't help anything at all!

Many of you who believe in OSAS vehemently deny statement # 1. I (and some others - not all) who do not believe in OSAS vehemently deny statement # 2.

I suggest that we take at face value what the other says they believe rather than say - "you can't (don't) believe that".

If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?

Now be careful, because salvation is based entirely on Christ's work. So if it is something I do to keep it than it is by my works and I earn it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I agree, chester.
It's never quite as simple as people want to make it. We can't all be fit 100% into the labels others want to fit us in, and that we want to fit them into.

But occasionally, you run across someone who really cares to connect with and try to understand you and be understood by you. They are willing to put the hard work in of genuine conversation instead of declaring in two minutes that they have you and your heart and mind and thoughts all figured out sufficiently to slap a label on you and thereby dismiss you.

 

[Willie-T]

If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?

Now be careful, because salvation is based entirely on Christ's work. So if it is something I do to keep it than it is by my works and I earn it.

It was given to us because we believed. If we changed our minds, and disbelieved, would it then be forced upon us?

 

[Chester]

I never encountered a Christian advocating to live a decadent, sinful life because Jesus died for our sins therefore we can do what we want. Where do people get this stuff?

Actually I have heard a few people almost say verbally what you wrote - and more who don't say it - but they live that way!

But, my point is - that accusing someone who believes in OSAS that they advocate a sinful lifestyle (just because they believe in OSAS) is just plain useless, wrong, and unfair!

 

[Persuaded]

I grew up being taught and believing myself that anyone who taught or believed in "once saved always saved" also believed that it did not matter how you lived - discipleship and good works were unimportant and don't matter - go out and live in sin because you will get to heaven anyway!

After some wrestling and disputing on this site and in person with people who believe in OSAS I have found that it is not this easy. Not everyone who believes in OSAS believes it does not matter how you live. In fact, some of you on this site who believe in OSAS faithfully teach (and I believe practice) a holy disciplined Godly life.

I quit saying that everyone who believes in OSAS "doesn't care about sinning and just cares about getting to heaven!" Now, I still believe that this is a very real danger with believing OSAS! If someone really believes OSAS is true, it can lead to them thinking it doesn't really matter how they live!


Now, here is my point! On the other side, some who believe in OSAS look at someone who does not believe in OSAS and immediately believe that they depend on works and think they must earn their salvation. Is this a danger with this view? YES! I grew up in an environment that taught and believed and lived that works are what keep you saved! And oh the problems this causes! Dead people who dress right, look right, but inside are hypocrites!

But I no longer believe that works keep a person saved.
I do not believe that I earn my initial salvation and I do not believe that I earn my sanctification.

I believe that initial salvation (justification, or the new birth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.
I believe that ongoing salvation (sanctification, or Christian growth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.
I believe I did not gain initial salvation by earning it, and I do not keep salvation by earning it.



I think that these two statements/accusations are equally useless and unbiblical:
(1) Someone who believes in OSAS does not believe in discipleship and believes it is OK to live a life of sin
(2) Someone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is kept by works and by earning it.


Listen - I am not saying we should not debate and wrestle deeply over this issue of salvation and the gift of eternal life and how it comes to us and what it means! (that is - I think we should keep on debating OSAS issues) Yes, let's look at what Scripture says and talk ("dispute" as KJV Acts 15 says!). But my point here is that using the two accusations above as blanket statements does not help.

I see these two statements (accusations) used quite a bit on this forum and I think it doesn't help anything at all!

Many of you who believe in OSAS vehemently deny statement # 1. I (and some others - not all) who do not believe in OSAS vehemently deny statement # 2.

I suggest that we take at face value what the other says they believe rather than say - "you can't (don't) believe that".

It seems by your post that you believe salvation can be lost. What would cause that loss?

I believe salvation is a one time event, can not be lost, is eternal, and is by faith only.
A truly saved person can not, will not live in continuous sin. The Holy Spirit that lives within will not allow it.
Any person who lives in continuous sin and says he is saved is a liar.

 

[breno785au]

I never encountered a Christian advocating to live a decadent, sinful life because Jesus died for our sins therefore we can do what we want. Where do people get this stuff?

I think it's some people who continually come up with extreme hypotheticals to try and prove their own point they believe it to be reality and then start teaching from that distorted reality.
I see it this way now, it's something I believe Holy Spirit is teaching me, it's not about getting to heaven, it's about the kingdom of God being lived through us now. If our minds are on this, there is no will I get to heaven one day? Or whatever because you're living from that place, thus in my mind, making OSAS arguments either for or against it, mute.
The kingdom of God is now within us.

 

[Gr8grace]

I never encountered a Christian advocating to live a decadent, sinful life because Jesus died for our sins therefore we can do what we want. Where do people get this stuff?

I have asked many times for links,books,churches or any information on this "rampant" teaching. I have yet to see it, and I have lived in quite a few different states and areas.

Most of us know its a smoke screen to cover the TRUE deception of religion and being "good."

 

[Chester]

I agree, chester.
It's never quite as simple as people want to make it. We can't all be fit 100% into the labels others want to fit us in, and that we want to fit them into.

But occasionally, you run across someone who really cares to connect with and try to understand you and be understood by you. They are willing to put the hard work in of genuine conversation instead of declaring in two minutes that they have you and your heart and mind and thoughts all figured out sufficiently to slap a label on you and thereby dismiss you.

You hit it dead on! Exactly!

 

[Chester]

If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?

Now be careful, because salvation is based entirely on Christ's work. So if it is something I do to keep it than it is by my works and I earn it.

I did not start this thread to argue about OSAS - I enjoy this kind of exchange and think it can be helpful. But this thread is trying to say that both sides should avoid stereotypes of the other.

Post #5 says it even better than I did!

 

[Gr8grace]

It was given to us because we believed. If we changed our minds, and disbelieved, would it then be forced upon us?

Yes.

We were bought with a price. We are no longer our own. If we are faithless, He remains faithful.

 

[Chester]

It seems by your post that you believe salvation can be lost. What would cause that loss?

I believe salvation is a one time event, can not be lost, is eternal, and is by faith only.
A truly saved person can not, will not live in continuous sin. The Holy Spirit that lives within will not allow it.
Any person who lives in continuous sin and says he is saved is a liar.

I respect your beliefs, though I would disagree with some of them - that is OK!

But on this thread I am not wanting to get into an OSAS debate - I am suggesting that both sides avoid stereotypes of the other.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think it's some people who continually come up with extreme hypotheticals to try and prove their own point they believe it to be reality and then start teaching from that distorted reality.
I see it this way now, it's something I believe Holy Spirit is teaching me, it's not about getting to heaven, it's about the kingdom of God being lived through us now. If our minds are on this, there is no will I get to heaven one day? Or whatever because you're living from that place, thus in my mind, making OSAS arguments either for or against it, mute.
The kingdom of God is now within us.

It has become a moot point to me too! I do not think in my mind that one day I will live forever. I think in my mind that...eternal life has already begun for me...

Now one thing I do covet greatly is that new body that will never feel pain again! Pain has the power to wear me down sometimes.

 

[Willie-T]

It seems by your post that you believe salvation can be lost. What would cause that loss?

I believe salvation is a one time event, can not be lost, is eternal, and is by faith only.
A truly saved person can not, will not live in continuous sin. The Holy Spirit that lives within will not allow it.
Any person who lives in continuous sin and says he is saved is a liar.

Even you just put a "qualifier" in there. LOL We all DO seem to love that little "escape clause" that "Well, they weren't REALLY Christians in the first place." LOL

 

[Gr8grace]

I did not start this thread to argue about OSAS - I enjoy this kind of exchange and think it can be helpful. But this thread is trying to say that both sides should avoid stereotypes of the other.

Post #5 says it even better than I did!

#2 is going to be correct, no matter what, if one believes we can lose salvation.

It would not be a wrong accusation.

If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?

 

[notuptome]

It's not about stereotypes it's about biblical truth. It's about honoring the sacrifice of Christ on the cross of Calvary. The emphasis is on Christ not on me. I could not save myself. I cannot keep myself saved. I cannot glorify myself in eternity.

I cannot forget from where I have fallen. My Savior is faithful even when I am not. Far too many folks today have a religious shell in which they reside. They do not have in themselves a fervor for Christ. They do not live everyday walking in repentance.

Ps 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grace777x70]

It was given to us because we believed. If we changed our minds, and disbelieved, would it then be forced upon us?

We believe with our heart and not our mind. Our mind gets renewed to the truth if we allow it to when we get the proper teaching about Christ.

The message of Christ brings with it the faith to bring about the new birth in Him. I believe we can have our minds messed up and it does not affect our spirit within us where Christ dwells.

I heard a statistic one time that 50% of people in depression and in mental wards are Christians thinking they have done something wrong like blasphemed the Holy Spirit or have done such sins that God can never forgive them. Bad teaching causes this type of manifestation in the minds of people. The so-called Christian religion has produced more freaks than the world has...lol

 

[miknik5]

You remain in HIM and don't "go out" from HIM

thats how you keep your salvation