Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Chester]

EG - "Mind if I ask who taught you this, I have been all over the country (I am retired military,) and have been to so many different churches in my travels I have lost count, And I have never heard this.

The only people i have ever heard make this claim, are people who believe we can lose salvation."

Response: Exactly: I was taught this is what people who believe in OSAS believe - that it is OK to sin.

EG wrote: "Just for context purposes. Everyone I have met in CC and in my life who believe in eternal security, believe in a discipleship, growth based system. "

Response: I don't know that I met anyone in CC who says this explicitly - that it is OK to sin. I have met at least one individual who says it and lives like it (because he is getting to heaven anyway - he believes).

EG wrote: "I believe many we think are saved will be lost, based on how they lived, and many we think are lost will have been saved.. "

Response: Amen! I agree completely!



EG wrote: "1. OSAS does not cause people to sin more. As I have said, No one I know who loves God and believes in the security in Christ thinks this, nor would teach this. "

Response: Sadly I have seen a belief in OSAS cause people to sin more. Do they "love God"? I will not be the judge?

EG wrote: "2. Legalism I do believe causes people to sin more. why? Thay have to water down the law to make it to a point they can feel they are ok. They have to hide their sin, not only from the church, but themselves. Because otherwise, they would be judged or have to judge themselves. and finally, They have to fellowship with people who live as they do, and Many are the most judgmental people I have met."

Response: I have seen this too!


EG wrote: "You think we can lose salvation, I have not heard how you think we can lose it. Mind if I ask how?"

Response: I am not wanting to avoid your question -- but I fear you and I could get into a fierce friendly dispute - save that for another time another thread - Here I want to just try to expose the two stereotypes I mentioned in the opening post

 

[Magenta]

Is Christian growth really ongoing salvation or is it something else?

Sanctification.

 

[Grace777x70]

Personally I believe that all true conversions to believing in Christ from the heart will have some form of good fruit either right at the start or in some degrees as they grow in Him.

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

1 Samuel 16:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

 

[Gr8grace]

I believe that ongoing salvation (sanctification, or Christian growth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.

See. This is why there is always contention. Skirting the question's. Never a open,sincere and clear answer.

If the question was clearly and honestly answered.............one would be stuck in a corner.

And I mean no disrespect. It is a issue of eternal destiny for folks. We had better have it figured out.

Saying that a Child of God can be tossed into the LoF by their own Father is a HUGE accusation.

If even the simple questions Get skirted? What justice does that do to us if we really can lose salvation.

 

[eph610]

Sanctification.

Is sanctification a process or a position? and if it is position, is the position only positional or literal?

Could it be that we are confusing consecration with sanctification at times?

Is righteousness a process or a position?

Is salvation a process or a position?

How can gifts be lost?

 

[Magenta]

Is sanctification a process or a position? and if it is position, is the position only positional or literal?

Could it be that we are confusing consecration with sanctification at times?

What is Sanctification?

The definition, which fits nicely with what the Bible teaches, is that it means to be set apart for holy use. It also means to make holy or to purify. This is exactly the goal of every believer in Christ. Like the Old Testament Temple vessels used by the priest, these were to be used for holy purposes and to be pure and to glorify God. Today, Christians have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and our bodies are the temple of God in which dwells the Holy Spirit and our bodies are vessels to be used for a holy or pure purpose for the glory of God. The origin of this word is from the Latin “sanctus” which means holy or to consecrate. The suffix of “tion” in sanctification is the ongoing or continuing process of this becoming holy. It is a progressive holiness and growing in purity and it takes a lifetime. We are being perfected and this perfection takes time and patience. What is Sanctification? A Bible Study

 

[Persuaded]

I respect your beliefs, though I would disagree with some of them - that is OK!

But on this thread I am not wanting to get into an OSAS debate - I am suggesting that both sides avoid stereotypes of the other.

Not condemning, nor showing disrespect, but would you tell me what you disagree with and also help me understand how one would lose their salvation.

 

[Chester]

here is my view. for a quick response

(1) Someone who believes in OSAS does not believe in discipleship and believes it is OK to live a life of sin

while this would be a stereotype. According to scripture it could be true James Jude spoke of people who thought they did not have to work. that belief is all they needed, Jude even gave them a name, licentiousness.

However. just because IT CAN BE TRUE, does not mean it is true..


(2) Someone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is kept by works and by earning it.

Unlike point number 1. There is no senerio where this statement would not be fact. If one can lose something, it means they have to earn it. There is no senereo where one can lose something that they did not have to earn, period.

(please note, I am not talking about losing it as in they let it go and are nt using it no more. or they tried to give it back, It is still theirs, whether they have it or not does not matter, A gift given can not be taken back. because the one who recieved the gift did not pay for it. thus it is not theirs to give away.

My view: a quick response to your response

(1) Wow! I agree - well-said - I don't know that I have ever heard someone who believes in eternal security be so honest about this possibility!

(2) I disagree (vehemently!) And I know you want my arguments - and I won't give them here (because we all know what happens next!)

 

[eph610]

What is Sanctification?

The definition, which fits nicely with what the Bible teaches, is that it means to be set apart for holy use. It also means to make holy or to purify. This is exactly the goal of every believer in Christ. Like the Old Testament Temple vessels used by the priest, these were to be used for holy purposes and to be pure and to glorify God. Today, Christians have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and our bodies are the temple of God in which dwells the Holy Spirit and our bodies are vessels to be used for a holy or pure purpose for the glory of God. The origin of this word is from the Latin “sanctus” which means holy or to consecrate. The suffix of “tion” in sanctification is the ongoing or continuing process of this becoming holy. It is a progressive holiness and growing in purity and it takes a lifetime. We are being perfected and this perfection takes time and patience. What is Sanctification? A Bible Study

to Sanctify is to set apart....and is a position not performance...you do not become more sanctified by praying and reading your Bible, because it is position....you pray and read your Bible because you want to get to know Father and be intimate with him....and grow your relationship with him....growing relationally with Father is not sanctification and never has been and never will be...he sanctified and made you righteous at conversion, you then return the favor by consecrating yourself to him and allowing him total 100% access to your life....

This will be met with disbelief and criticism but it is the Bible...I do not seek to read the Word, have prayer and devotion time to become more holy, I am already holy and sanctified...I do those things to build intimacy and relationship with Father....

Moses was righteous and sanctified and consecrated himself and the reward was relationship, the people chose to work at it and not have relationship......Imagine would have happened had the people came near to the mountain of God at Sinai....instead of telling Moses to be the spokesman and he could have all the face time...Face time is relationship building the flesh and soul to the same position your spirit already has

 

[Chester]

I have never heard anyone say "Go out and sin all you want" and do not "obey Jesus" and I have listened to over a thousand different messages from various teachers of the grace of Christ

People do get stuck in various things that are destructive but the real Christian does not want to be in that. They want to walk free from those things - not live in them happily.

IMO This is why we need to be preaching grace as only the grace of Christ has the power to change a person from the inside out. We can temporarily change ourselves outwardly by our own self-effort and human will but usually that does not last.

As we see Christ and keep our eyes on Him and in His finished work for us - the Holy Spirit transforms us outwardly to manifest our true nature in our new creations in Christ. We are created in righteousness and holiness. We need to participate in this process and desire to live by the spirit within.

The true Christian that is living in continuous sin is the most miserable person on the planet. ( there are believers that go to church every week and read their bibles and pray all the time and they can be in this category as well as the person out shooting heroin in their arms.. ..only " their thing is malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ" )

He is living against his true nature on the inside and is constantly trying to cover up this miserableness. This describes those that deliberately refuse to even desire to walk in who they are in Christ and perhaps in some cases they are not really "in Christ" at all.

Perhaps they are in fact "in Christ" but have never really heard the true gospel of the grace of Christ and thus live defeated by various things?

I'll let the angels at the end of the ages separate the tares from the wheat.

Oh! Oh! Ah! HA! Wow!

Your last line made me last laugh so hard I could hardly breathe! You actually quoted that verse at the end! I don't believe it!

I hope you get it! Hilarious! That is my verse!

 

[Persuaded]

Even you just put a "qualifier" in there. LOL We all DO seem to love that little "escape clause" that "Well, they weren't REALLY Christians in the first place." LOL

Not an escape clause but a very sincere concern for many who may have a false assurance of eternal life.
I have encountered many in my ministry that were saved years after they thought they were saved.
Each and every one was lead to believe they were saved as children by saying some simple prayer and being baptized.
They lived for years with a false assurances until the Holy Spirit finally revealed their true standing before God.
It is not for me to judge, but I am concerned for some on this forum.

 

[Chester]

Is Christian growth really ongoing salvation or is it something else?

In discussions like this it is always important to clarify terms because we all use words differently. I use "ongoing salvation" to mean that God is continuing to work in the Christian's life to "save" him from the power of sin.

 

[Chester]

See. This is why there is always contention. Skirting the question's. Never a open,sincere and clear answer.

If the question was clearly and honestly answered.............one would be stuck in a corner.

And I mean no disrespect. It is a issue of eternal destiny for folks. We had better have it figured out.

Saying that a Child of God can be tossed into the LoF by their own Father is a HUGE accusation.

If even the simple questions Get skirted? What justice does that do to us if we really can lose salvation.

Sorry, Gr8grace, I am not trying to skirt your question - let me try again . . .

First: Is this the question you meant? "If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?"

If that is the question my answer is -- we keep salvation by grace through faith, not by works: it is the gift of God -- In actuality, it is not us who keep salvation - it is God who keeps it!

 

[eph610]

In discussions like this it is always important to clarify terms because we all use words differently. I use "ongoing salvation" to mean that God is continuing to work in the Christian's life to "save" him from the power of sin.

I appreciate your candor and heart here Chester, thanks for clarifying...

He already did that over 2,000 years ago.....God is not dealing with the SIN issue in a believers life anymore, if they confess with their mouth and believe in their heart God raised him from the dead...

Our spirit is perfected the minute we do the above, we will work on our soul and flesh until the end of the age, but that does not ever mean our salvation is in question....

The Bible says the Power of SIN is the Law 1 cor 15.56 God did what the law could not do, he sent his only son in the likeness of sinful flesh and also as an offering for SIN, he condemned SIN in the flesh....

We are not talking sinless perfection here, we are talking that I am now a slave to righteousness and not a slave to Sin....you are free chester....free to SIN or not to SIN....

let go of the sin-consciousness and understand the freedom Christ bought for you, not to live ungodly, but to pursue peace , live godly and sensibly in the present age.....it is in his freedom and anointing the yoke is destroyed, the burden is lifted and the life is changed.....

 

[eph610]

Sorry, Gr8grace, I am not trying to skirt your question - let me try again . . .

First: Is this the question you meant? "If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?"

If that is the question my answer is -- we keep salvation by grace through faith, not by works: it is the gift of God -- In actuality, it is not us who keep salvation - it is God who keeps it!

How does someone keep a gift?

 

[Persuaded]

Sorry, Gr8grace, I am not trying to skirt your question - let me try again . . .

First: Is this the question you meant? "If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?"

If that is the question my answer is -- we keep salvation by grace through faith, not by works: it is the gift of God -- In actuality, it is not us who keep salvation - it is God who keeps it!

If it is God that keeps it, than how can it be lost?
I just don't understand this line of thought.

 

[Chester]

Not condemning, nor showing disrespect, but would you tell me what you disagree with and also help me understand how one would lose their salvation.

Ah, I wish I could say more here, but that is for other threads - go to my home page and look up some of the threads I started in May and June and you can see what I believe.

I (and others here) know very well that if I say - "I believe salvation can be lost by _____________________________" - it doesn't matter what I put in the blank, the "fierce, friendly dispute" will commence quite quickly - !!!

Again, this thread is about trying to destroy stereotypes.

 

[Magenta]

to Sanctify is to set apart....and is a position not performance...you do not become more sanctified by praying and reading your Bible, because it is position....you pray and read your Bible because you want to get to know Father and be intimate with him....and grow your relationship with him....growing relationally with Father is not sanctification and never has been and never will be...he sanctified and made you righteous at conversion, you then return the favor by consecrating yourself to him and allowing him total 100% access to your life....

This will be met with disbelief and criticism but it is the Bible...I do not seek to read the Word, have prayer and devotion time to become more holy, I am already holy and sanctified...I do those things to build intimacy and relationship with Father....

Moses was righteous and sanctified and consecrated himself and the reward was relationship, the people chose to work at it and not have relationship......Imagine would have happened had the people came near to the mountain of God at Sinai....instead of telling Moses to be the spokesman and he could have all the face time...Face time is relationship building the flesh and soul to the same position your spirit already has

To clarify: Are you saying there is no process involved? That once the Holy Spirit of God has indwelt us at the time of conversion, we are 100% sanctified and nothing more needs to be done or can be done in this regard from then on out? That it only has to do with being set apart?

 

[Chester]

Not an escape clause but a very sincere concern for many who may have a false assurance of eternal life.
I have encountered many in my ministry that were saved years after they thought they were saved.
Each and every one was lead to believe they were saved as children by saying some simple prayer and being baptized.
They lived for years with a false assurances until the Holy Spirit finally revealed their true standing before God.
It is not for me to judge, but I am concerned for some on this forum.

I agree completely!!!!!!!! Amen!

 

[Chester]

I appreciate your candor and heart here Chester, thanks for clarifying...

He already did that over 2,000 years ago.....God is not dealing with the SIN issue in a believers life anymore, if they confess with their mouth and believe in their heart God raised him from the dead...

Our spirit is perfected the minute we do the above, we will work on our soul and flesh until the end of the age, but that does not ever mean our salvation is in question....

The Bible says the Power of SIN is the Law 1 cor 15.56 God did what the law could not do, he sent his only son in the likeness of sinful flesh and also as an offering for SIN, he condemned SIN in the flesh....

We are not talking sinless perfection here, we are talking that I am now a slave to righteousness and not a slave to Sin....you are free chester....free to SIN or not to SIN....

let go of the sin-consciousness and understand the freedom Christ bought for you, not to live ungodly, but to pursue peace , live godly and sensibly in the present age.....it is in his freedom and anointing the yoke is destroyed, the burden is lifted and the life is changed.....

You are defining "power of sin" in a different way than I meant it - and hence misunderstood -- nevertheless I think I get the heart of your post, and I agree.