Understanding God’s election

[lrs68]

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.


NOT 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT THE ELECT should perish, but that ONLY THE ELECT should come to repentance.

Most people love the mistranslated version of this verse for the simple fact it fits their own doctrine but the actual original Greek is properly translated as [the singular person] because we know that Peter did not speak\write Koine Greek like the educated Paul but rather spoke the more common fisherman language of the Hellenized Greek...[However, most Theologians and Scholars believe Peter couldn't speak\write Greek but his Epistles were later translated into Greek since he came from Capernaum where they were not educated at all and basically would only know their natural language of Aramaic\Hebrew].

So the version below is most likely to be closer to what Peter was actually writing. This also means that the phrase [is patient with YOU] is talking to those who will read this Epistle. And we know both Believers and Atheist\Agnostic alike have read this Verse. That means this Verse is for them also (giving them hope to convert).

3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[Rufus]

Was Lot righteous?

He offered his virgin daughters to be gang raped by the men of Sodom. And this was because those men arrived at Lot's door demanding he bring out his male visitors, angels unbeknownst to them,so that those men may "know them". Which was a way of saying,have sex with them.

Lot doesn't sound very righteous in doing that. And apparently God agreed. Because he destroyed both cities. After telling Abraham he would spare them were 1 righteous person to be found there.

Lot may not sound very righteous but in God's eyes, he was (2Pet 2:7). And the proof is in the eating because God spared (preserved) Lot's life and the life of his two daughters -- with whom he subsequently had incest with, by the way.

 

[Rufus]

The same must be true if you view scripture through the eyes of John Calvin.

No, the same is true according to the words in the text itself. Nowhere in scripture is it taught that Christ atoned for the sins of the world system. He atoned for the since of his elect moral agents.

 

[Rufus]

Most people love the mistranslated version of this verse for the simple fact it fits their own doctrine but the actual original Greek is properly translated as [the singular person] because we know that Peter did not speak\write Koine Greek like the educated Paul but rather spoke the more common fisherman language of the Hellenized Greek...[However, most Theologians and Scholars believe Peter couldn't speak\write Greek but his Epistles were later translated into Greek since he came from Capernaum where they were not educated at all and basically would only know their natural language of Aramaic\Hebrew].

So the version below is most likely to be closer to what Peter was actually writing. This also means that the phrase [is patient with YOU] is talking to those who will read this Epistle. And we know both Believers and Atheist\Agnostic alike have read this Verse. That means this Verse is for them also (giving them hope to convert).

3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The personal pronoun "you" is: Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative Plural.

https://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Pe&c=3&v=9&t=ESV#conc/9

 

[Magenta]

Not only ours but also the sins of the whole world. Well, sins could be atoned for all but it still does not make everyone saved for they must be born again to see the kingdom of God, and we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit upon belief, which is enabled by God Who draws us with loving kindness, opens our eyes, unstops our ears, and circumcises our hearts so we may love Him in return, etc etc... Of course free willers say they make themselves born again by believing but that is not what Scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that we were made alive in Christ while we were yet dead. Then they complain about what it means to be spiritually dead and deny what Scripture explicitly teaches on this, that the natural man can neither receive not comprehend the spiritual things of God... They say the natural man is not a bad guy and he can choose to believe that which is foolishness to him which is foolishness itself LOL

Ephesians 1 verses 13-14 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth— the gospel of your salvation— you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Rufus]

Most people love the mistranslated version of this verse for the simple fact it fits their own doctrine but the actual original Greek is properly translated as [the singular person] because we know that Peter did not speak\write Koine Greek like the educated Paul but rather spoke the more common fisherman language of the Hellenized Greek...[However, most Theologians and Scholars believe Peter couldn't speak\write Greek but his Epistles were later translated into Greek since he came from Capernaum where they were not educated at all and basically would only know their natural language of Aramaic\Hebrew].

So the version below is most likely to be closer to what Peter was actually writing. This also means that the phrase [is patient with YOU] is talking to those who will read this Epistle. And we know both Believers and Atheist\Agnostic alike have read this Verse. That means this Verse is for them also (giving them hope to convert).

3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Too bad that 2Pet 3:9 doesn't say "you and all others who may read this letter". Nice touch of eisegesis on your part, though... Do you often read your assumptions into the Holy Word of God?

 

[lrs68]

The personal pronoun "you" is: Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative Plural.

https://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Pe&c=3&v=9&t=ESV#conc/9

It's directly directed to the reader and only one person is reading each time normally.

The Bible is preached as a whole but instructed to be read individually. And the proper Greek word translates to YOU, as in those who read this Epistle.

 

[lrs68]

Too bad that 2Pet 3:9 doesn't say "you and all others who may read this letter". Nice touch of eisegesis on your part, though... Do you often read your assumptions into the Holy Word of God?

Actually if we went through all of Peter's writings using the Hellenized Greek there would be more usage similar to the example I have provided.

Once it's been proven what Peter can or cannot speak\write makes it easier to translate. I know that is not something like you want or would ever consider\admit but Theologians, Scholars, CHURCH FATHERS have a better understanding on the language Peter was able to speak\write than YOU or MYSELF.

 

[Magenta]

Too bad that 2Pet 3:9 doesn't say "you and all others who may read this letter". Nice touch of eisegesis
on your part, though... Do you often read your assumptions into the Holy Word of God?

God may desire everyone to come to belief but we know everyone does not, even though every knee shall bow and
every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord... as per Philippians 2 v 10 and also Rev 5 v 13 and Romans 14 v 11 etc...

I suppose a universalist would use that as a proof text, but that kneeling and confessing follows the
resurrection, and our eternal fates are already decided by then... at least that is what I understand...

Daniel 12 verse 2 Many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course, Paul is talking to those who are already saved. The Holy Spirit dwells within them.

so he’s telling those who are already saved that they need to keep
Obeying and work out their salvation with fear and trembling ?
what are you guys meaning when you say “ they are already saved ?”

can I ask what they are saved from ? Biblically I mean .

 

[Magenta]

so he’s telling those who are already saved that they need to keep
Obeying and work out their salvation with fear and trembling ?
what are you guys meaning when you say “ they are already saved ?”

can I ask what they are saved from ? Biblically I mean .

If someone does not already possess salvation, how can they work it out? I think we see here a number of people who suffer some type of mental debility which causes them to constantly question whether or not they are saved, and it is a sad thing to witness to be sure, because people who are not saved, generally speaking of course, I do not believe people who are not saved care about whether or not they are, though I did speak with non-believers and even atheists who desired to "go to heaven," which is of course a religious construct irrevocably connected to God, but that just showed how inconsistent they were, and blew holes in their belief that they were more logical and rational than believers... anyways, not sure if I am one of who you call "you guys," though I am repeatedly falsely accused of being a Calvinist, so excuse me for butting in here... people who are saved are saved from the wrath of God which comes against unrighteousness and those who refuse to acknowledge Who He is, who will suffer the second death as a result. As believers we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

 

[John146]

He atoned for the since of his elect moral agents.

This is not in scripture...anywhere...

"Elect moral agents?"

 

[John146]

so he’s telling those who are already saved that they need to keep
Obeying and work out their salvation with fear and trembling ?
what are you guys meaning when you say “ they are already saved ?”

can I ask what they are saved from ? Biblically I mean .

They have been born again, made a new creature in Christ, sins are washed away, justified by the faith of Christ, have been predestinated unto the adoption, called sons of God, are now in Christ, part of the body of Christ, have the blessing of everlasting life, have the righteousness of God, etc.

 

[John146]

so he’s telling those who are already saved that they need to keep
Obeying and work out their salvation with fear and trembling ?
what are you guys meaning when you say “ they are already saved ?”

can I ask what they are saved from ? Biblically I mean .

Here's the audience: 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

 

[Magenta]

This is not in scripture...anywhere...

"Elect moral agents?"

Ah, you just reminded me that at least one of the free willers here reduce belief to "making a moral decision."

 

[Rufus]

It's directly directed to the reader and only one person is reading each time normally.

The Bible is preached as a whole but instructed to be read individually. And the proper Greek word translates to YOU, as in those who read this Epistle.

No! "It's directly directed to a specific class of reader: The ELECT (1Pet 1:1)! And every reader who just happens to pick up the epistle to read it doesn't qualify because (s)he isn't a believer. If any of the apostles, or even the OT prophets for that matter, wanted to address the world at large, they would have said as much in their prologue.

 

[Rufus]

John146 said:


This is not in scripture...anywhere...

Neither is the term "Trinity"! Nor is the phrase "world system". Were you trying to make a some point?

"Elect moral agents?"

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes I know some of you believe people are saved already . and others just can’t be saved because they aren’t already saved ect but you guys avoid all the scripture that tells a different story for instance the Bible says God will judge every person according to that they have done and said whether good or bad. Like this from pauls doctrine

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

i don’t want to just argue with you sis but is that how God is going to judge people ?

If it is then it makes perfect sense why Paul was teaching this to believers

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭

Makes even more sense here

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬

that’s why Paul wrote that they needed to continue in obedience and work out thier own salvation with fear and trembling

Not because they’re already saved ….but because they have to face the judgement based on thier deeds now of course one could say “ that’s not about salvation “ but it is

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

and

“But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; “

Unless we say eternal life has nothing to do with salvation then what Paul’s writing there has a lot to do with salvation or wrath

the Bible simply doesn’t teach people you are already saved it promises that if tbey believe the gospel and follow the lord in faith at the end tbey shall be saved

it teaches tbat if we persevere in faith at the end of it we’ll be saved not before the beginning of it . If folks were already saved they wouldn’t need to repent and believe the gospel or be baptized to be saved but Jesus said this of all creatures


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s who can be saved and how they shall be saved that day he comes with salvation . It’s crazy even Paul dodnt claim he knew his judgement but left it for Christ the judge when he comes but people who read Paul then believe they already know thier judgement ….

I’m not ever going to assume but let the lord judge me

“For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i don’t tell people they’re saved already because I’m not the one who gets to decide I tell them things from the Bible like this because it’s true

“we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others.”


I’m still planning on appearing at the lords judgement throne I’ll wait for him sis I understand the issues with boasting that I can’t be judged or that I’m special and different than those who aren’t chosen ect I fit in the group that has to appear and answer and give account for my life still so I’m gonna wait for Jesus judgement and do what I can to follow after his word for now trusting that he’ll save me as he said he would for those who pick up thier cross and follow him

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

Lot may not sound very righteous but in God's eyes, he was (2Pet 2:7). And the proof is in the eating because God spared (preserved) Lot's life and the life of his two daughters -- with whom he subsequently had incest with, by the way.

Incest. Yes,I knew about that too.

Noah ,whom God thought righteous,was a drunk.

King David slee a woman's husband by proxy so that David could be with his widow.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

They have been born again, made a new creature in Christ, sins are washed away, justified by the faith of Christ, have been predestinated unto the adoption, called sons of God, are now in Christ, part of the body of Christ, have the blessing of everlasting life, have the righteousness of God, etc.

Mmhm