Oh oh, could this mean you do not understand Reformed soteriology like moi!
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Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
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Probably just slow this morning and brain-weary of the lack of unity of the Faith. One God, one Spirit, one Lord, one Book and a bazillion different minds. After watching numbers advance from million, to billion, to trillion in my years, I figure I'll just get ahead of the game and use a word that better seems to represent the number of interpretations of the unity.
Yes but you are trying to make this passage about unregenerate people it is not... much like this one it is about believers.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
But the carnal mind/person is not born unable to believe in/trust in and have faith in Christ Jesus and the Good News... no where does scripture state this.
This is the hurdle you have not in all these pages, actually dealt with using scripture to support this Reformed claim.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
But the carnal mind/person is not born unable to believe in/trust in and have faith in Christ Jesus and the Good News... no where does scripture state this.
This is the hurdle you have not in all these pages, actually dealt with using scripture to support this Reformed claim.
You obviously have not truly read these accounts but actually they came because they heard about the God of the Hebrew People. I would not expect those unfamiliar with the Tanakh to understand the Hebrew meaning but these Scholars and Theologians are going directly by what the exact wording means.
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cannot obey God nor act in faith
Paul was carnal and he obeyed along with countless others in scripture.
Once again ... death means separated not unable.
No one is born unable to believe in/trust in/have faith in the Good News of Christ the Redeemer.
Faith comes before salvation.
Once we repent from dead works and believe, then we are then born again, and immediately (I John 5:1).
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
That is right "believe" is something the person does.
Paul was carnal and he obeyed along with countless others in scripture.
Once again ... death means separated not unable.
No one is born unable to believe in/trust in/have faith in the Good News of Christ the Redeemer.
Faith comes before salvation.
Once we repent from dead works and believe, then we are then born again, and immediately (I John 5:1).
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
That is right "believe" is something the person does.
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Hebrews 11 teaches without faith it is impossible to please God.
Romans 8 teaches that the carnal mind cannot please God.
All unbelievers possess always a carnal mind.
Do the math.
When Paul was murdering Christians, what mind do you believe he was operating in? Had God not intervened in his life, you believe he would have stopped? Did he believe he was pleasing God?
Romans 8 teaches that the carnal mind cannot please God.
All unbelievers possess always a carnal mind.
Do the math.
When Paul was murdering Christians, what mind do you believe he was operating in? Had God not intervened in his life, you believe he would have stopped? Did he believe he was pleasing God?
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According to you this my problem, and I understand why you think this. And I think you are misreading His Word and the 1Cor2 verse you are referencing, at least in part. Thus, I think it's you who has the problem.
In Paul's mind and throughout his writings, especially Romans, is a kind of duality in men - there are men of faith who believe God and unrighteous men who in early context are the not men of faith who reject God. There is also his perspective that even though there are men like himself who believed YHWH - or had faith in YHWH (as Hebrews 11 tells us) - and who lived blamelessly, righteously under law, under sin, from God's ultimate perspective of perfect righteousness and holiness, all men, both Jew & Greek, men of faith and unrighteousness men, need Christ and His Righteousness from God. This is what Paul is building in Rom1 that sets the course for the rest of the document.
When you read Rom8, which is instruction to believers - men of faith in Jesus is YHWH's Christ - in living the spiritual life of a man of faith - what he says about the fleshly mindset does not negate the fact that there have been Jews for centuries living pursuant to God's Law with its sacrificial system for dealing with sin(s) and there are Gentiles who showed the work of the law in their hearts with functioning consciences. Paul has also just come out of Rom7 explaining how the Law had been instructing re: sin and making him able to perceive the struggle going on inside him as a man who desired to live as God willed. Paul will bring in the concept of the Remnant from the Hebrew Scriptures to go along with this and the Remnant was of OC men who did not bow in obeisance (same word Jesus used emphatically in John4 re: who God is seeking) to idols but lived albeit imperfectly in belief in God.
The problem IMO with this view of depravity that you share with TULIPism is that it works very hard to negate the truth that there have been men of faith from Abel on. These are men and women of Gentile and Hebrew heritage throughout history and the message of belief in God has been progressive and has been believed since the Garden by people before Jesus was sent.
So, I do not find it difficult to see in Scripture how some of the believing Remnant easily transitioned from belief in YHWH to being convinced by God and His people that Jesus was the God promised Messiah whom they were anticipating for centuries. Nor do I see it as impossible, as others do, to transition from belief in God to belief in His Son especially with His Spirit functioning in the world, His Word being in most of the world and having been so for millennia, consciences working to give a sense of good & bad & judgment, and other such factors, including living a life over time in a world that one can realize is an absolute mess while having in our hearts a sense of eternity - something better and greater than this catastrophe we're living out now - including death that just does not make sense if one believes in the Creator of Rom1 and the powers He has.
In Paul's mind and throughout his writings, especially Romans, is a kind of duality in men - there are men of faith who believe God and unrighteous men who in early context are the not men of faith who reject God. There is also his perspective that even though there are men like himself who believed YHWH - or had faith in YHWH (as Hebrews 11 tells us) - and who lived blamelessly, righteously under law, under sin, from God's ultimate perspective of perfect righteousness and holiness, all men, both Jew & Greek, men of faith and unrighteousness men, need Christ and His Righteousness from God. This is what Paul is building in Rom1 that sets the course for the rest of the document.
When you read Rom8, which is instruction to believers - men of faith in Jesus is YHWH's Christ - in living the spiritual life of a man of faith - what he says about the fleshly mindset does not negate the fact that there have been Jews for centuries living pursuant to God's Law with its sacrificial system for dealing with sin(s) and there are Gentiles who showed the work of the law in their hearts with functioning consciences. Paul has also just come out of Rom7 explaining how the Law had been instructing re: sin and making him able to perceive the struggle going on inside him as a man who desired to live as God willed. Paul will bring in the concept of the Remnant from the Hebrew Scriptures to go along with this and the Remnant was of OC men who did not bow in obeisance (same word Jesus used emphatically in John4 re: who God is seeking) to idols but lived albeit imperfectly in belief in God.
The problem IMO with this view of depravity that you share with TULIPism is that it works very hard to negate the truth that there have been men of faith from Abel on. These are men and women of Gentile and Hebrew heritage throughout history and the message of belief in God has been progressive and has been believed since the Garden by people before Jesus was sent.
So, I do not find it difficult to see in Scripture how some of the believing Remnant easily transitioned from belief in YHWH to being convinced by God and His people that Jesus was the God promised Messiah whom they were anticipating for centuries. Nor do I see it as impossible, as others do, to transition from belief in God to belief in His Son especially with His Spirit functioning in the world, His Word being in most of the world and having been so for millennia, consciences working to give a sense of good & bad & judgment, and other such factors, including living a life over time in a world that one can realize is an absolute mess while having in our hearts a sense of eternity - something better and greater than this catastrophe we're living out now - including death that just does not make sense if one believes in the Creator of Rom1 and the powers He has.
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