Understanding God’s election

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studier

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The Nature of God's Foreknowledge: Prescience or Prerogative?

Since I'm on a roll proving just how pathetically impotent FWers are in that they have zero ability to answer tough questions, I'm going to demolish one of the most mighty of their "strong towers" to FWT: their ridiculously absurd understanding of the doctrine of Foreknowledge, which totally contradicts other doctrines they have created, although they are totally oblivious to those contradictions which the silly notion of "prescience" presents. Self-Awareness is not a FWer strong suit. But before we get to the crux of the matter with Foreknowledge, we should refresh our memories about some of those other doctrines they invented so that we'll be able to see clearly those contradictions.

First, we have God's "omnilove" (so-called) invented by GWH. God just loves everyone to death, even those He never knew in eternity!:rolleyes:

Secondly, FWer's reduce God to a passive spectator in the universe in terms of man's salvation; for it's not God's grace that is effectual bur rather man's "freewill" choice is the ultimate, primary and final determinant of man's eternal destiny.

Thirdly, this reduces God to a mere opportunity maker, since His grace is ineffectual! God gives all mankind, without exception, equal opportunity to exercise their "freewill" to save themselves. This is how FWers portray God's role in salvation through his weak, lame, ineffective attempt to save all. He presents "all" with opportunities.

Fourthly, God is likened to an EOE (equal opportunity employer) because He's not willing or desirous that anyone should perish according to how FWer's interpret passages like 2Pet 3:9, 1Tim 2:4, etc.

So, with these FWT constructs serving as a backdrop or framework with which to scrutinize FWT's understanding of the biblical doctrine of Foreknowledge, let's begin our little journey.

We already know that virtually all FWers believe that the Gr. term "proginosko" (Strong's 4267) rendered "foreknew" in Rom 8:29; 11:2, etc. means man's actions instead of just persons. They shamelessy and unabashedly and unapologetically read into Rom 8:29 "For those whom God foreknew would believe, He also predestined...". (Nice piece of eisegesis which scripture strictly forbids!) Obvously, FWers believe that an all-knowing, omniscient God must first learn things about his moral creatures so that He can act accordingly. They tell us that God knows all things about all people, and he did this in eternity. So, all this knowlege that God acquired in eternity is FIXED! It's etched in stone! And God would never, ever tamper with man's "freewill" choices, so this means that all of mankind's spiritual choices are fixed certainty! After all, man's eternal destiny is soley in his hands and not in God's! This is very important to remember.

Of course, those of the Reformed faith are lambasted and criticized for understanding "foreknowledge" as essentially the embodiment of Divine Prerogative. We have all heard their stupid, ill-conceived arguments such as: God forces his will upon people; God picks winners and losers; God would be treating people with partiality, etc., etc. -- and they rail against the Doctrines of Grace totally oblivous to the fatal flaws to their own prescience view of foreknowledge, which I will now reveal in this post.

1. Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better for him to not have been born rather than for him to exist and commit the worse crime in human history. Well, how is it any different, in principle, between Judas and the rest of humanity? Since God knows with certainty how each and every human being, who hears the gospel is going to respond to it, wouldn't it have been infintiely more loving, compassionate and merciful of God to not have decreed the existence of all his enemies? Why didn't God just decree the existence of those he knew would respond positively? If God is so loving, merciful, gracious and kind why did He decree the existence of all unbelievers who He clearly knew would choose eternal damnation for themselves? Instead, God is certainly willing to let all unbelievers self-destruct and perish in the Lake of Fire for all eternity, in spite of FWers rhetoric to the contrary.

2. Given the absolute, fixed certainty of men's choices, this means that sinners in hell were not able to change their own destiny by doing a choice do-over. In other words, the sons of men are imprisoned within their own choices. They are in fact HELPLESS, for they wound up in hell because they were unable to extricate themselves from the fixed certainty of their own decisions. Man-induced Determinism is alive and well in FWT! So is Fatalism, since man's choices are irreversible just as a fatal physical disease would be. But wouldn't a truly loving, merciful and compassionate God do as the Good Samaritan did and actually come to the the rescue of such helpless people?

3. Perhaps the most absurd implication to the presicence view of foreknowledge with respect to spiritual choices is that God, possessing all this knowledge about how each and every person will respond to the Gospel, is still nevertheless desperately trying in space and time to save everyone by offering them opportunities for salvation that he foreknew in eternity with certainty they would never accept in time and space! In other words, FWT implicitly has God perpetually chasing his tail like a moonbat, crazed lunatic -- even though he foreknew with certainty in eternity what the final outcome of his empty, vain, futile attempts would be with unbelievers who have elected themselves to become eternal sons or daughters of their spiritual father Satan.

4. The prescience view of foreknowledge reduces God down to the status of his created order; for like all his moral creatures the Potter, too, must acquire knowledge from the pots of his very own making. His created order becomes his counsellor. The creation teaches its Creator, which of course cannot be true if God is truly omniscient.
:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
 
Oct 19, 2024
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God knows the heart and minds of everyone and He uses that for His purpose. He used the Pharaoh to promote Joseph and this Pharaoh to destroy Egypt. God knew the choices they would make and He used it to benefit the Hebrew People in both scenarios. He used both Pharaoh's free will to promote and to free His people.
Yes, and the OT also had a limited understanding of God's love,
thinking that it only included elect Jews, NOT Gentiles.
Jesus enlightened Paul, but some seem oblivious,
although they admit that God loves elect Gentiles.
 

Cameron143

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I'm sorry, my expression is not clear, originally.My question isThe Bible of Israel and us Are Christian Bibles the same? I hope the translation software can be accurate·Thank you for replying to me.
They are not the same. The Hebrew Bible has 24 books. The Christian Bible has 66. The ordering of the books is different as well. Also, as Israel has never as a whole people accepted Jesus as Messiah, they do not consider the New Testament to be scripture.
Hope this helps.
 

Cameron143

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Actually, I have unbelievers able to believe based upon God's initiative, and subsequent to that transition able to please God.
If I remember correctly, that initiative is merely creation and conscience. While these are adequate to make man accountable, they are not sufficient for salvation.
 

studier

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If I remember correctly, that initiative is merely creation and conscience. While these are adequate to make man accountable, they are not sufficient for salvation.
You remember incorrectly. Creation (including God making Himself known and understood), conscience, eternity in hearts, revelation from His Word and His people, including the Good News (aka Gospel) of His Son, which are sufficient for salvation.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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You remember incorrectly. Creation (including God making Himself known and understood), conscience, eternity in hearts, revelation from His Word and His people, including the Good News (aka Gospel) of His Son, which are sufficient for salvation.
Once you introduce revelation, you have God directly involved. That is when salvation occurs.
 

Hui1

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Jun 13, 2023
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They are not the same. The Hebrew Bible has 24 books. The Christian Bible has 66. The ordering of the books is different as well. Also, as Israel has never as a whole people accepted Jesus as Messiah, they do not consider the New Testament to be scripture.
Hope this helps.
Thank you very much.Tell me the difference between them.I am very surprised that the Hebrew Bible does not believe in the New Bible?!If they don't believe or admit that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.So theirFaith is dangerous, and they are not saved.This surprised me.
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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Thank you very much.Tell me the difference between them.I am very surprised that the Hebrew Bible does not believe in the New Bible?!If they don't believe or admit that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.So theirFaith is dangerous, and they are not saved.This surprised me.
The Hebrew Bible in 22 Books is the same as the 39 Books of Your Bible's Old Testament. There's no New Testament in the Hebrew Bible.
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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Yes, and the OT also had a limited understanding of God's love,
thinking that it only included elect Jews, NOT Gentiles.
Jesus enlightened Paul, but some seem oblivious,
although they admit that God loves elect Gentiles.
In a couple places God even tells Moses to allow strangers to join but they must be willing to follow the same Laws as the Hebrew People. So it's quite possible that many Gentiles became Proselytized and we will see them in Heaven.
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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The Hebrew Bible in 22 Books is the same as the 39 Books of Your Bible's Old Testament. There's no New Testament in the Hebrew Bible.
What's interesting about how God designed the essentials for the Hebrew People because 22 is the key figure.

There's 22 Books of the Tanakh
There's 22 Numbers in the Numerical Value System
There's 22 Letters to the Alphabet

Each Book also represents a Letter of the Alphabet and a Number from the Numerical Value System.

Each Hebrew word also equals a numerical value.

That's why old not modern Science said God created the Universe using Mathematics as the Alphabet.


.... What excites me is when you add the 22 Tanakh Books to the 27 New Testament Books you get 49 Books. 7x7=49 the perfect Number of God [7]...
 

Cameron143

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Thank you very much.Tell me the difference between them.I am very surprised that the Hebrew Bible does not believe in the New Bible?!If they don't believe or admit that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.So theirFaith is dangerous, and they are not saved.This surprised me.
It is an unfortunate position, but God has promised a time when He will return to the nation Israel and large numbers of people will be saved. And they still have the Bible in part, and the Old Testament is still about Jesus. Faith still comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So they aren't without hope.
 

Hui1

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Jun 13, 2023
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The Hebrew Bible in 22 Books is the same as the 39 Books of Your Bible's Old Testament. There's no New Testament in the Hebrew Bible.
I really appreciate it.Well, your reply, I know you are.Jews are Hebrews, and I just learned that your Bible has only 22 volumes.I want to askDo you believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior? This pairSalvation is very important, because you areJews, so I want to ask you this question. Can you answer me if it is convenient for you?I hope my translation is accurate and I didn't offend you.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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Again your conclusions are wrong. And the fact that I had to explain what I was not doing twice again evidences your lack of understanding.
As far as the moment that someone comes to faith and is placed into Christ, I believe they occur simultaneously in practice. Fundamentally, they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. So again, you don't understand reformed theology. Just admit it and move on.

What happened to regeneration before belief? :confused::rolleyes:

Reformed theology has been analyzed thoroughly by many believer's and ultimately it requires a boat load of cognitive dissonance... so yeah that is why people leave and reject it, not from lack of understanding.

"Move on"... lol this dogma is indefensible especially after that Roman 8:7 debacle.