Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yeah I believe what the Bible says about things … you got me . Probably why I believe this
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NIV
It’s just so ridiculous to believe but like I said I’ll always reject people explaining why it’s wrong or doesn’t apply ……but I’m about to put you on ignore because you can’t take a hint or stop trolling . I don’t have any interest in arguing with you but also your wasting a lot of my time so I’m gonna just stick you on ignore so you can find other people to troll
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NIV
It’s just so ridiculous to believe but like I said I’ll always reject people explaining why it’s wrong or doesn’t apply ……but I’m about to put you on ignore because you can’t take a hint or stop trolling . I don’t have any interest in arguing with you but also your wasting a lot of my time so I’m gonna just stick you on ignore so you can find other people to troll
-
1
- Show all
So @Rufus, is it true that the super-determinists (such as yourself) assert and staunchly defend a doctrine that has the entirely good, loving Holy God raising up the nation Israel for the express purpose of abandoning them to certain failure, condemnation and inevitable judgement?
Because I think that such a motive, being entirely premeditated, is surely the calling card of Satan as he ranges across the globe mercilessly devouring souls of men.
So tell us @Rufus.....where did it all go oh so wrong with the super-determinists?
Mat 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Because I think that such a motive, being entirely premeditated, is surely the calling card of Satan as he ranges across the globe mercilessly devouring souls of men.
So tell us @Rufus.....where did it all go oh so wrong with the super-determinists?
Mat 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
-
1
- Show all
Hello Rufus.
There is no mention of Jewish proselytes in the text (Romans).
I will give this over to Ai.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Your questions are insightful and tap into important interpretive issues in the book of Romans—especially regarding to whom Paul is speaking and what he means when he refers to “the Law.” Let’s address each of your questions step by step, grounded in Scripture and context.
🔹 1. Is Romans 7:6 written to Jews, Gentiles, or Gentile proselytes to Judaism?
Romans 7:6 was primarily written with Jewish believers in mind, but it's included in a letter addressed to a mixed audience of Jews and Gentiles in the Roman church (Romans 1:7).
In Romans 7:1, Paul begins:
“Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law…”
This intro indicates he is addressing those familiar with the Mosaic Law, clearly referencing Jewish believers or possibly God-fearing Gentiles/proselytes who had adopted Jewish law observance.
The metaphor about being released from the Law through death (vv.1–6) would be meaningful mainly to Jews, who were bound by the Mosaic covenant.
🔹 2. Were the Gentiles ever under the Law?
No, Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law as a covenantal system. Paul makes this clear elsewhere in Romans.
Romans 2:14
“For when Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law…”
This confirms Gentiles did not receive the Law, but they had conscience and natural revelation.
Ephesians 2:11–12 (also by Paul) says Gentiles were:
“...excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise…”
The Mosaic Law was given specifically to Israel (Exodus 19–20), not to the nations.
🔹 3. Does Paul mention that the Gentiles do not have the Law in Romans?
Yes. As mentioned above, Romans 2:12–15 is very explicit:
Romans 2:14-15 (ESV):
“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires… they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts…”
Here, Paul contrasts the written Law (Torah) given to Jews with a moral awareness that even Gentiles possess via conscience.
This shows:
Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law.
However, they still stand accountable before God via natural law or conscience (Romans 1–2).
🔹 4. Does Romans 10:1–4 isolate the Jews as the focus?
Yes, Romans 10:1–4 is clearly focused on Israel (ethnic Jews):
“Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.”
"Them" = Israel, as defined in Romans 9:31–32 and Romans 10:1.
Paul is lamenting that Israel pursued righteousness through the Law and missed Christ, the end (telos) of the Law.
🔹 5. Are Romans 2–11 primarily focused on Jews?
Not exclusively, but there is a strong focus on Jewish-Gentile distinctions and God’s plan for Israel and the nations throughout Romans 2–11.
Romans 2–3 contrasts Jews who have the Law and Gentiles who do not, but both are shown to be equally sinful.
Romans 4 uses Abraham to show justification is by faith, not law—relevant to both Jews and Gentiles.
Romans 9–11 is almost entirely focused on Israel’s past, present rejection, and future restoration.
Paul addresses questions like:
“Has God rejected His people?” (Romans 11:1)
So while Gentiles are clearly addressed in the letter, Paul's extended focus on Israel’s role in God’s redemptive history makes these chapters uniquely oriented toward Jewish concerns—even as he also explains the inclusion of the Gentiles.
There is no mention of Jewish proselytes in the text (Romans).
I will give this over to Ai.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Your questions are insightful and tap into important interpretive issues in the book of Romans—especially regarding to whom Paul is speaking and what he means when he refers to “the Law.” Let’s address each of your questions step by step, grounded in Scripture and context.
🔹 1. Is Romans 7:6 written to Jews, Gentiles, or Gentile proselytes to Judaism?
Romans 7:6 was primarily written with Jewish believers in mind, but it's included in a letter addressed to a mixed audience of Jews and Gentiles in the Roman church (Romans 1:7).
In Romans 7:1, Paul begins:
“Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law…”
This intro indicates he is addressing those familiar with the Mosaic Law, clearly referencing Jewish believers or possibly God-fearing Gentiles/proselytes who had adopted Jewish law observance.
The metaphor about being released from the Law through death (vv.1–6) would be meaningful mainly to Jews, who were bound by the Mosaic covenant.
🔹 2. Were the Gentiles ever under the Law?
No, Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law as a covenantal system. Paul makes this clear elsewhere in Romans.
Romans 2:14
“For when Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law…”
This confirms Gentiles did not receive the Law, but they had conscience and natural revelation.
Ephesians 2:11–12 (also by Paul) says Gentiles were:
“...excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise…”
The Mosaic Law was given specifically to Israel (Exodus 19–20), not to the nations.
🔹 3. Does Paul mention that the Gentiles do not have the Law in Romans?
Yes. As mentioned above, Romans 2:12–15 is very explicit:
Romans 2:14-15 (ESV):
“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires… they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts…”
Here, Paul contrasts the written Law (Torah) given to Jews with a moral awareness that even Gentiles possess via conscience.
This shows:
Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law.
However, they still stand accountable before God via natural law or conscience (Romans 1–2).
🔹 4. Does Romans 10:1–4 isolate the Jews as the focus?
Yes, Romans 10:1–4 is clearly focused on Israel (ethnic Jews):
“Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.”
"Them" = Israel, as defined in Romans 9:31–32 and Romans 10:1.
Paul is lamenting that Israel pursued righteousness through the Law and missed Christ, the end (telos) of the Law.
🔹 5. Are Romans 2–11 primarily focused on Jews?
Not exclusively, but there is a strong focus on Jewish-Gentile distinctions and God’s plan for Israel and the nations throughout Romans 2–11.
Romans 2–3 contrasts Jews who have the Law and Gentiles who do not, but both are shown to be equally sinful.
Romans 4 uses Abraham to show justification is by faith, not law—relevant to both Jews and Gentiles.
Romans 9–11 is almost entirely focused on Israel’s past, present rejection, and future restoration.
Paul addresses questions like:
“Has God rejected His people?” (Romans 11:1)
So while Gentiles are clearly addressed in the letter, Paul's extended focus on Israel’s role in God’s redemptive history makes these chapters uniquely oriented toward Jewish concerns—even as he also explains the inclusion of the Gentiles.
No. Those who truly believe have been given eternal life first, and from/by that, they believe; that is, believing is result, not cause. Until and unless someone is made alive by God, they remain spiritually dead and incapable of believing, hearing and choosing. Anyway, I don't believe that our choice is what saves us. Were that the case, we would be our own savior, but as we are informed in scripture, Christ alone is the Savior, so it is He alone who must do the saving, not us, and that's what makes it by grace. Regarding John 5, in it, Jesus tells us exactly that - those whom Jesus was speaking to obviously heard Him, yet they could not believe because His word was not in them, and it wasn't in them because they hadn't been given spiritual life.
[Jhn 5:38 KJV] 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
[Jhn 5:38 KJV] 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.