Vote on Obsession with confession(1st John 1:9,sin confession)

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There is no condemnation for us. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

We will never be judged judicially for sin - Jesus took all of God's wrath for us.

God says to all who trust in His Son; "Not Guilty!"

We have been declared righteous.

If we are in any way guilty, then we can be condemned.

So why feel guilty if we are not guilty?

There is no condemnation if we walk in the light. If we walk in darkness our conscience/heart condemns us. If we walk in darkness and sin, Christ holds it against us, too (Revelation 2-3). There are some very dire warnings for those who persist in sin.

There is no liberty to sin without guilt as you suggest. That's just lawlessness. The lawless will not enter into heaven.

 

[Budman]

There is no condemnation if we walk in the light.

There are none of those "ifs" attached to salvation. Jesus paid it all - period. If all of our sins are paid for (and they are - the Bible teaches it) then there is nothing to hold against us. Either Christ's blood cleansed us from all sin, or it didn't. There is no middle ground.

You say if we persist in sin, then we will not go to heaven - but I'm quite certain you sin every single day. So, if sin were indeed held against us, how many of your sins would disqualify you from heaven?

Just one.

And if Jesus did not pay for them all, then guess what? He will have to go back to the cross, because it is only through His shed blood that we can have remission of sins.

Yet the Bible teaches Jesus will not go back. It was a one time event.

So where does that leave you?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There are none of those "ifs" attached to salvation. Jesus paid it all - period. If all of our sins are paid for (and they are - the Bible teaches it) then there is nothing to hold against us. Either Christ's blood cleansed us from all sin, or it didn't. There is no middle ground.

You say if we persist in sin, then we will not go to heaven - but I'm quite certain you sin every single day. So, if sin were indeed held against us, how many of your sins would disqualify you from heaven?

Just one.

And if Jesus did not pay for them all, then guess what? He will have to go back to the cross, because it is only through His shed blood that we can have remission of sins.

Yet the Bible teaches Jesus will not go back. It was a one time event.

So where does that leave you?

GOD is faithful when we are faithless. So your comment about sinning everyday might be correct, but that's really not the issue.

Grace is not license to sin. All sin is being forgiven, not has been forgiven. GOD can't forgive sin that hasn't been committed. That's the idea underlying lawless grace: It's all forgiven so why worry? Doesn't work that way. GOD holds our sins against us until we turn from them to his forgiveness.

 

[Mcsmitty]

True, true but IF is such a small but powerful word. Just one sin disqualifies us, yes, but IF we are double minded, IF we are hypocritical we will be judged not cast out. Jesus did pay for all sins (past, present and future) we are redeemed and our salvation is justified but isn't it that we need to continue in sanctification?

Nothing I can do is ever or will ever be good enough to save me from the wretch that I truly am, only Jesus' blood.
I sin everyday- all day!! It's the sin that I deliberately do that will leverage my rewards in heaven but not my salvation.

I struggle with being saved and made a new creation and then sin directly against Him.... I know that God doesn't see our sin and He doesn't see levels of sin it's black and white. but, when you've followed the flesh and therefore sinned directly against the spirit how do you come back from that? Was I ever saved in the first place? How was it so easy for me to do?

Agh....Free Will!! GOD IS GOOD all the time and I at this point in my life don't know why He loves me at all, what do I bring to the table? NOTHING but heartbreak and disappointment.

Ok sorry went off the deep end there.

 

[Budman]

So your comment about sinning everyday might be correct, but that's really not the issue.

It's certainly the issue as it pertains to your post I was answering.

Grace is not license to sin.

Who said it was?

All sin is being forgiven, not has been forgiven.

"The blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)

Not "will" cleanse.

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins." (Colossians 2:13)

Forgave, not "will forgive". And "all" means all. Every single sin.

"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." (Romans 4:8)

Never means never. Not now, nor in the future.

"And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses." (Acts 13:39)

"Are" justified from all things - not "will be".

GOD holds our sins against us until we turn from them to his forgiveness.

"That God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." (2 Corinthians 5:19)

 

[Budman]

True, true but IF is such a small but powerful word. Just one sin disqualifies us, yes, but IF we are double minded, IF we are hypocritical we will be judged not cast out. Jesus did pay for all sins (past, present and future) we are redeemed and our salvation is justified but isn't it that we need to continue in sanctification?

Nothing I can do is ever or will ever be good enough to save me from the wretch that I truly am, only Jesus' blood.
I sin everyday- all day!! It's the sin that I deliberately do that will leverage my rewards in heaven but not my salvation.

I struggle with being saved and made a new creation and then sin directly against Him.... I know that God doesn't see our sin and He doesn't see levels of sin it's black and white. but, when you've followed the flesh and therefore sinned directly against the spirit how do you come back from that? Was I ever saved in the first place? How was it so easy for me to do?

Agh....Free Will!! GOD IS GOOD all the time and I at this point in my life don't know why He loves me at all, what do I bring to the table? NOTHING but heartbreak and disappointment.

Ok sorry went off the deep end there.

So true. We have nothing to offer God. That's why we simply surrender and receive what is freely offered - the gift of salvation.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

yesterday I was studying 'Prince', and he told his audience that the Holy Spirit doesn't convict people of sin,
but convicts people of their righteousness....

to us, this is blasphemous teaching and blatantly leading people away from Truth,
for a Christian MUST over-come sin.

Since JESUS paid for our sin by the sacrifice of his body on the cross are you saying that we still need to continue paying?I would say we are accepted by GOD because the reborn Christian Is In the body of CHRIST and the blood of Jesus cleanes us from all unrighteousness.

The change took place In our spirits,JESUS died for our sins once and for all for those that believe In the WORD that GOD sent to this world.

I think you are talking about renewing your mind.

 

[Mcsmitty]

And all His people said - AMEN!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If all sins were forgiven, why is Jesus holding these against them?

But I hold against you because you have left your first love. Revelation 2:4

But I hold a few against you because you have there those who hold fast to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat food sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality. Revelation 2:14

But I hold against you because you tolerate the woman Jezebel, the one who calls herself a prophetess, and teaches and deceives my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. Revelation 2:20​

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Convict in this context means to impress with a sense of guilt, which is what happens when the holy spirit rebukes a person for wrong behavior.

If all sin has been forgiven, what are you guilty of?

Well said.
Some want to feel like they are not worthy and with a sense of condemnation,but GOD sent his only begotten son to the world so that whosoever believes him would not perish but have everlasting lfe.

 

[sparkman]

To be honest, you guys are all very confusing.

Scripture is clear. Those who have been saved will never be condemned again (John 5:24, Romans 8:1). They have eternal life as a present possession.

It's also clear that those know the Lord depart from sin.

II Timothy 2:19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”


The Reformed view is preservation of the Holy Spirit. God causes those who are saved to persevere. Sanctification is real and progressive.

It's also clear that those who are saved confess and ask forgiveness of sin. This results in forgiveness and cleansing. There is no lack of faith in the Reformed mind when it comes to the fact that they are already forgiven, but the confession and asking of forgiveness for sin has a relational aspect to it, and is not for purposes of continuing salvation. It is part of the sanctification process.

Personally I think the reason that this hypergrace vs. works oriented Christian argument is occurring is because the Reformed perspective has the right balance. There is no fear of losing salvation with a Reformed person, but neither does their theology skew their view of confession and asking forgiveness. Listening to you guys arguing encourages me more and more on the soundness of the Reformed perspective

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

To be honest, you guys are all very confusing.

Scripture is clear. Those who have been saved will never be condemned again (John 5:24, Romans 8:1). They have eternal life as a present possession.

It's also clear that those know the Lord depart from sin.

II Timothy 2:19 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”


The Reformed view is preservation of the Holy Spirit. God causes those who are saved to persevere. Sanctification is real and progressive.

It's also clear that those who are saved confess and ask forgiveness of sin. This results in forgiveness and cleansing. There is no lack of faith in the Reformed mind when it comes to the fact that they are already forgiven, but the confession and asking of forgiveness for sin has a relational aspect to it, and is not for purposes of continuing salvation. It is part of the sanctification process.

Personally I think the reason that this hypergrace vs. works oriented Christian argument is occurring is because the Reformed perspective has the right balance. There is no fear of losing salvation with a Reformed person, but neither does their theology skew their view of confession and asking forgiveness. Listening to you guys arguing encourages me more and more on the soundness of the Reformed perspective

This is essentially what I believe.

 

[blondieindahouse]

I just have to say:
Who coined this phrase anyway? You know, righteous conscious? Oh! I know, it is the WOF crowd! Its all a bunch of LIES! In the first place, it is those who are IN CHRIST who have a sin conscious. The world is blind to their sin. So to pretend as if it is error to be aware of our obedience is laughable but also very sad that you have bought into it.

Just because we are reassured of our salvation doesnt mean we should not respond when disciplined. The response is changing our minds. Our minds are continually being renewed so therefore we naturally "change our minds" when we have walked in error. That is being conscious of our sin. You make it out to be a bad thing! It is a good thing! We are not like the world but we are a different people.

Those IN CHRIST naturally want to please the FATHER. When God disciplines us it is natural to repent. We are not yet glorified. We are still being molded in our sanctification. We are only justified at this point. We DO have salvation but the process of sanctification isnt complete. To say from this point forward, we need not change our minds continually as an ongoing process is ridiculous. To "change our minds" as they are being renewed is a natural process walking with Christ.

What you are doing is redefining terms as the heretic Joseph Prince has done. Its a catchy phrase but an incorrect one.

I see there are only a handful of you that believe this nonsense. You will be judged and judged harshly for spreading a false gospel. If you want to pretend you are apt to teach it is at your peril.

What I see on this board is extremes. It is usually hyper grace vs legalism. You are both in error. The Holy Spirit teaches me and guides me in the way of righteousness. God is so good! He has shown me the way by watching the jesters in the court.................

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If all sins were forgiven, why is Jesus holding these against them?

But I hold against you because you have left your first love. Revelation 2:4

But I hold a few against you because you have there those who hold fast to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat food sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality. Revelation 2:14

But I hold against you because you tolerate the woman Jezebel, the one who calls herself a prophetess, and teaches and deceives my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. Revelation 2:20​

What? No pat, ready answers? I thought it was all so in-the-bag and easy to explain, like opening a can of beans, heat and serve.

Just imagine how easy it would be if they had a New.Modern.Hyper Grace Bi(b)le:

I don't hold anything against you because you have a confused identity and it's only sin! Heck, I forgave that stuff a long time ago! Chill and focus on your new identity. Peace out!​

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Sin interrupts our communion with God, but does not cause us to lose our union with Christ.

I disagree with you,I think If you are renewing your mind then you would not be sin conscious.GOD forgave you already.If you are saying GOD I thank you for forgiving me of my sins,I would say thats good but continually asking for forgiveness to GOD sounds like doubt.

Confession is essential to experiencing the peace that is interrupted when we sin

.
That would be saying that because you said ,forgive me of this sin,forgive me of that sin over and over that now you feel that you are accepted by GOD when GOD already forgave you.

Think about it this way. If a man does things that are inappropriate in his relationship with his wife, they affect the relationship, even though the man is still married to his wife. Confession to the wife and requesting forgiveness should result in a restoration of the relationship, and possibly even a strengthening of it. The man is acknowledging these acts of betrayal in the relationship, and expressing sorrow for them, and asking for a restoration of the relationship.

This Is where you need to confess and repent everytime you offend your neighbor.

I know that in many human relationships, admitting such transgressions results in hard feelings and maybe even a termination in the relationship. Our human relationships are damaged through the Fall, and forgiveness is something that a wife may not extend. However, in the ideal world, this is the way it should be. We humans don't relate to each other in the way that we should.

Yes there are consequences for sin In the flesh but when It comes to GOD,he has provided grace through faith.

In addition, confession leads to cleansing by God. I think this is a reference to an active sanctification that God is performing on our behalf as we yield ourselves to him.

GOD has forgiven you and should love your neighbor.That's what renewing your mind Is. "Sanctification

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Some might ask,are you saying that because you are under grace that you can be a murderer and still go to heaven?

I would say that when you were reborn,you became a new creation and you would not want to do anything like that.

Grace teaches us not to do that.

Paul said he had wronged no man.
If a person still wanted to do that,I would wonder If they really got saved.

 

[PeterJens]

You say if we persist in sin, then we will not go to heaven - but I'm quite certain you sin every single day.

This means the cross has no meaning and your faith is a waste of time.

Jesus said be perfect as the Father is perfect.

Now people in your line of thought have made God so different there is never any acceptability, it is purely a question of buying the ticket and waiting, as righteousness is impossible.

But people miss-read Jesus. The word perfect has always to have a context or it is meaningless. What is a perfect meal or a perfect painting or a perfect car, or a perfect wife? It is very subjective based on the goal you are measuring it against. A perfect solution maybe one that works for the problem you have, not every problem in that area.

As we have no measure against all aspects of existance, there is no way of knowing if in Gods terms your response is perfect or not.

Jesus is addressing the nature of God in love. He wishes the best for everyone, and so should we. Jesus is calling this behaviour perfect and saying it is achievable by us. If it was not achievable it would not have been given as a command.

Many hyper-grace people believe the reality is they can never gain communion like Jesus had with the Father, so it is just walking in failure under Gods forgiveness. But if this is the perpetual state the opposite idea is equally true. If one sin is failure why not do every sin, because the forgiveness is the same. This is the logical extension of their logic and giving up on the power of the cross.

 

[PeterJens]

I disagree with you,I think If you are renewing your mind then you would not be sin conscious.GOD forgave you already.

These concepts are derived concepts not based on experience but to justify the position of shutting down your conscience.

Paul is very explicit about the benefit of the conscience and its part in our spiritual walk. He is careful to encourage people to behave in a way that does not cause people to feel bad about ourselves or them, for instance eating food sacrificed to idols, which is meaningless because idols are merely stone and the food has not changed. But if someone gets upset, do not eat it.

Now cults, pagans, atheists associate the conscience with standards imposed by others and so should be rejected as guilt is not valid because everyone is really innocent. This concept is being brought into christianity when our whole theology is based about walking righteously, being lights on a hill, doing good works, being transformed into children of God.

So I would suggest this is paganism in the church, a heresy as deadly as any put forward because it detracts from Gods holiness and our need to change. The how of change is following Jesus, obedience, repentance, loving, etc.

But so many want to follow Jesus without this as they feel it failed previously in their lives. But this is the argument of the sinner rebelling against God, of those who do not want to abandon faith even though in their lives it has not born the fruit they expected. Rather than accepting they have made a mistake, they are changing the very foundations of the faith to force their way into heaven.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

This means the cross has no meaning and your faith is a waste of time.

Jesus said be perfect as the Father is perfect.

Now people in your line of thought have made God so different there is never any acceptability, it is purely a question of buying the ticket and waiting, as righteousness is impossible.

But people miss-read Jesus. The word perfect has always to have a context or it is meaningless. What is a perfect meal or a perfect painting or a perfect car, or a perfect wife? It is very subjective based on the goal you are measuring it against. A perfect solution maybe one that works for the problem you have, not every problem in that area.

As we have no measure against all aspects of existance, there is no way of knowing if in Gods terms your response is perfect or not.

Jesus is addressing the nature of God in love. He wishes the best for everyone, and so should we. Jesus is calling this behaviour perfect and saying it is achievable by us. If it was not achievable it would not have been given as a command.

Many hyper-grace people believe the reality is they can never gain communion like Jesus had with the Father, so it is just walking in failure under Gods forgiveness. But if this is the perpetual state the opposite idea is equally true. If one sin is failure why not do every sin, because the forgiveness is the same. This is the logical extension of their logic and giving up on the power of the cross.

But how do you be perfect the way our father In heaven Is perfect?

 

[Grace777x70]

This is what believers in the grace of our Lord Jesus have to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy....however there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

God sets apart ( sanctifies )our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. ( this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you ...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive )..= done deal

Passive = something being done to you - you are not doing it

Acts 26:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' ( perfect passive )

Perfect tense = an action in the past that is in a present state now - in a completed state.

Passive = something being done to you - you are not doing it


Sanctification to our "religious minds" could mean a lot of different things to different people as it depends on the religious beliefs formulated from our backgrounds.....despite the "biggie sins"...also things like..no smoking..no drinking..no going to church..no reading your bible every day..no praying for an hour each day.....no going to a movie...reading a newspaper...no being a servant of God...basically the religious mindset says...no doing "what I don't do.."..etc