Was Mary Sinless?

[Genipher]

I do know my bible very well but citing that Jesus preached to the people in Hades, hell is not really referred to in scripture, does not answer the question. Where does it STATE how Jesus was resurrected? We hear about several other people in scripture who are returned to life without any indication that their bodies were substantially different then when they had died, yet Jesus's body supposedly is markedly different. Your answer does not explain what was different.

Do you know your Bible, or do you just come up with what you WANT to be present in it and declare that it is correct? That path is pure deception.

Many think 1 Peter 3:18-20 means he was in hades. Not 100% sure I agree. Would need more research.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison. who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

Jesus says He holds the keys to Hades and death (Revelation 1:18) which kinda gives the impression that he took them after his death but it could be he had them all along? Definitely need to make sure we are understanding correctly and not jumping to our own conclusions.

 

[rewriter]

Many think 1 Peter 3:18-20 means he was in hades. Not 100% sure I agree. Would need more research.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison. who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

Jesus says He holds the keys to Hades and death (Revelation 1:18) which kinda gives the impression that he took them after his death but it could be he had them all along? Definitely need to make sure we are understanding correctly and not jumping to our own conclusions.

Doing your own research is a good thing.

 

[GWH]

Many think 1 Peter 3:18-20 means he was in hades. Not 100% sure I agree. Would need more research.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison. who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

Jesus says He holds the keys to Hades and death (Revelation 1:18) which kinda gives the impression that he took them after his death but it could be he had them all along? Definitely need to make sure we are understanding correctly and not jumping to our own conclusions.

Yes, that verse seems problematic. I wonder if Peter was pondering how people were saved before the NT era or without having had access to Scripture. Paul's solution/answer seemed to be they were judged on the basis of general revelation, and the OT served as a proto-Gospel.

Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Acts 14:16-17, 17:26-27&30, Rom. 1:18-20, Rom. 10:13-18, Col. 1:23, Gal. 3:8, 1Pet. 1:10-12, cf. the Parable of the Talents in Matt. 25:14-30). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture (the Golden Rule). Thus, sinners have no excuse for not seeking God’s salvation or being truthseekers (Matthew 7:7, Hebrews 11:6).

 

[Genez]

It's simple, Jesus came back in to His Body and God made His Body alive again through the power of the Holy Spirit and then Jesus got up and walked out of the tomb after the angel of the Lord rolled the stone away

Jesus did not need to have the stone rolled out of the way to get outside the tomb.

For after His resurrection Jesus by the power of God could just walk through walls.

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together,
with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood
among them and said, “Peace be with you!” John 20:19​

An angel of the Lord rolled the stone away to let others in to see that he was risen and gone!


grace and peace ..............

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If it was the old body, where did it come from? Certainly not from the tomb when the angel rolled away the stone. The manner of shroud indicates as though his body vaporized into the thin air, instead of struggling out of the wrapping. The scars were proof of his identity, the disciples wouldn't have recognized him without the scars.

The physical body of the Lord Jesus Christ did not return to dust. His physical body had no corruption ... no sin which would render it subject to death.

The Lord Jesus Christ willingly gave His life (John 10:17-18).

Please read the record in Acts 13. Paul was preaching in Antioch (Acts 13:14). Concerning the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead Paul said:

Acts 13:34-37

34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.


vs 34 – His body was raised from death and did not return to death as did Lazarus ... or the son of the Shunammite woman raised from the dead by Elisha (2 Kings 4) ... or the son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7) ... while these folks later died after being raised from the dead and their bodies returned to dust, the body of the Lord Jesus Christ remained alive, He ascended up into heaven and He is seated at the right Hand of the throne of God ever living to make intercession.

vs 37 – the body of the Lord Jesus Christ saw no corruption ... His body did not decay.

.

 

[Lovette]

Luke 24:2-9 says the stone was rolled away.
And 1Cor. 15:42-47 says the resurrection body is raised with supernatural ability.
It also says Adam was made from dust but Jesus was made from heaven.

Not so according to Matt. 28:1-7, the tomb was ALREADY empty, nobody getting out or passing through in any means. What you're doing is arguing against one piece of Scripture with another.

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stonefrom the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.

But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.” (Matt. 28:1-7)

 

[Lovette]

If he can walk through a door or "appear" in a room, I would assume he can pass through a tomb/stone.

John 20:26

There is zero indication that Jesus turned to dust in the tomb. The shroud would only prove he had been there, nothing else. The fact thst his body still had scars BEFORE he ascended indicates it was the same body.

You seem to be limiting the power of God.

Except he DIDN'T. The tomb was already empty by the time the angel rolled away the stone. Did Jesus supernaturally pass through the tomb and ambush the women on their way to inform the disciples? The scars would only prove his identity, without them the disciples wouldn't recoginize him.


Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stonefrom the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.

But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.” (Matt. 28:1-7)

 

[Lovette]

The physical body of the Lord Jesus Christ did not return to dust. His physical body had no corruption ... no sin which would render it subject to death.

The Lord Jesus Christ willingly gave His life (John 10:17-18).

Please read the record in Acts 13. Paul was preaching in Antioch (Acts 13:14). Concerning the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead Paul said:

Acts 13:34-37

34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.


vs 34 – His body was raised from death and did not return to death as did Lazarus ... or the son of the Shunammite woman raised from the dead by Elisha (2 Kings 4) ... or the son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7) ... while these folks later died after being raised from the dead and their bodies returned to dust, the body of the Lord Jesus Christ remained alive, He ascended up into heaven and He is seated at the right Hand of the throne of God ever living to make intercession.

vs 37 – the body of the Lord Jesus Christ saw no corruption ... His body did not decay.

.

Then please explain where the body was, and how did he get out of the tomb. Don't tell me it's teleportation or other supernatural stuff, that's a ghost does, Luke's account explicitly shows the Lord didn't appear as a ghost. "Return to dust" simply means mortal death, separation of body and spirit, it doesn't necessarily mean decay. Denying him returning to dust is denying his huminity, for when he humbled himself to human form, "return to dust" is an ineluctable fate this choice entails.

Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

 

[bytheblood]

Then do get so defensive.

Getting defensive to the point you have to try and convince others you were not thinking that makes others think you were actually thinking that

This is just a free exchange of thoughts and ideas so relax. It's not like there's going to be a pop quiz or anything.

That's not being " defensive ", that's being corrective. You insinuated that I was espousing a form of socialism and/or a welfare state with your" free ride " response. You may try to, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm exchanging my thoughts and ideas freely but sometimes, like this one by you, they are misinterpreted. Have a joyful night.

 

[bytheblood]

Then please explain where the body was, and how did he get out of the tomb. Don't tell me it's teleportation or other supernatural stuff, that's a ghost does, Luke's account explicitly shows the Lord didn't appear as a ghost. "Return to dust" simply means mortal death, separation of body and spirit, it doesn't necessarily mean decay. Denying him returning to dust is denying his huminity, for when he humbled himself to human form, "return to dust" is an ineluctable fate this choice entails.

Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Just a question, but wouldn't Jesus's body turning to dust be a form of corruption? " For David speaketh concerning Him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for He is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, NEITHER WILT THOU SUFFER THINE HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION." Acts 2:26-28

 

[Lovette]

Just a question, but wouldn't Jesus's body turning to dust be a form of corruption? " For David speaketh concerning Him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for He is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, NEITHER WILT THOU SUFFER THINE HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION." Acts 2:26-28

Ask yourself what "return to dust" means to you. To me, again, it means mortal death, not decomposition of the body. He couldn't have been in "hell" in the first place without mortal death first.

 

[GWH]

Not so according to Matt. 28:1-7, the tomb was ALREADY empty, nobody getting out or passing through in any means. What you're doing is arguing against one piece of Scripture with another.

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stonefrom the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.

But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.” (Matt. 28:1-7)

No, YOU are putting Scripture against Scripture. I am harmonizing them.

Matt. 28:1-7 does not say whether or not the tomb was already empty before the angel rolled back the stone,
but it does not make any difference to me.

I think you have lost track of the discussion. You said "how did the Lord get out? Passing through like a ghost? No such thing is indicated. That's your hypothesis." And now you suggest it is the hypothesis of Matt. 28:1-7?

 

[GWH]

Ask yourself what "return to dust" means to you. To me, again, it means mortal death, not decomposition of the body. He couldn't have been in "hell" in the first place without mortal death first.

You redefine dust to mean death? Why didn't you say so from the start and save us from this disagreement?!
Of course, you still have 1Cor. 15:47 to harmonize.

 

[Lovette]

No, YOU are putting Scripture against Scripture. I am harmonizing them.

Matt. 28:1-7 does not say whether or not the tomb was already empty before the angel rolled back the stone,
but it does not make any difference to me.

I think you have lost track of the discussion. You said "how did the Lord get out? Passing through like a ghost? No such thing is indicated. That's your hypothesis." And now you suggest it is the hypothesis of Matt. 28:1-7?

Where was the body then?

 

[Lovette]

You redefine dust to mean death? Why didn't you say so from the start and save us from this disagreement?!
Of course, you still have 1Cor. 15:47 to harmonize.

You still have 1 Cor. 15:49 to harmonize. Man of dust came first, man of heaven later, nobody is directly born of the spirit. All who bear the image of the heavenly man also bear the image of the dustly man, you're trapped in a false dischotomy.

 

[rewriter]

I wonder how many people here believe that scripture can answer ALL the questions we can think of as opposed to the writers merely recording what was considered important. Also, how many people believe that scripture were written with a 21st century understanding of the world as opposed to an understanding of the world from the time they were first written. On this one might wish to know that in the 1st century a very fast trip between Jerusalem and Rome took roughly 2 weeks and was extremely dangerous. A more reasonable and far safer, still not safe but much safer, would take roughly 8 weeks.

Also, in childbirth there was roughly a 1 in 4 chance of a death, the mother, the child being born or both. Making it to age 5 was also difficult, child mortality was high.

Likewise, Rome ruled, writing or possessing writings that Rome did not approve of could be punishable by death, especially if you were not a Roman citizen.

Resurrections and virgin births were accepted as being real and involving special people, several were officially documented. And on the point of virgin birth, modern science agrees it is possible, not common but possible, the infant would be a clone of the mother. But even here, it is possible for what appears to be a male infant with a penis to be born, just far less likely. With a global population of roughly 8 billion, there might be as many as 5 or 6 such virgin birth people living today.

Now regarding explanations, there are two types of possibilities, logical ones, there is no inherent contradiction in the claim, so God did it qualifies, as goes the entire universe was created 5 minutes ago complete with all the signs of great age, including individual memories (try to disprove that as it would include having just created the scriptures as well as your personal memories as signs of great age). The other option that of realistic possibilities, that is there is actual verifiable, hard evidence, quantum physics is totally weird, but using it gives us computers that work., thus quantum physics is clearly not wrong, not necessarily totally right but at least not wrong.

The problem is seeking logical possibilities is that it sometimes requires a ton of research to learn what does and does not work.

 

[Lovette]

You redefine dust to mean death? Why didn't you say so from the start and save us from this disagreement?!
Of course, you still have 1Cor. 15:47 to harmonize.

Look, there shouldn't be anything controversial to debate. If Jesus hadn't returned to dust, he couldn't have resurrected, since resurrection is God breathing life into dust, just like how he created Adam and how he resurrected the two witnesses. Denial of Jesus's return to dust is denial of his death.

"Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them." (Rev. 11:11)

 

[markss]

You want to argue that away? Go ahead. Be my guest.

Thank you for the invitation, but no, I'm not planning to argue this with you.

Much love!

 

[markss]

I wonder how many people here believe that scripture can answer ALL the questions we can think of as opposed to the writers merely recording what was considered important. Also, how many people believe that scripture were written with a 21st century understanding of the world as opposed to an understanding of the world from the time they were first written.

IDK . . . I've found the Bible addresses much of what was unknown at the time.

Have you ever stopped to think . . . when God inspired the Scriptures, He knew how you would interpret as you read it. He knew what each verse would mean to you. The wisdom of God transcends all our imagination, is what I think.

Much love!

 

[markss]

If Jesus could not sin, His temptation was a sham.

Or it was evidence of his Godly nature. Proof of His claims.

Who can convince me of sin? Jesus asked the crowd, the Pharisees must have been seething not having a single accusation to bring!

Tested and proven, is how I see this.

Much love!