Was Mary Sinless?

[Genez]

Is that so? How would we know that? Are you saying that if we clone a woman, it would be an immaculate conception?

Much love!

You would get a clone.. only a female like the mother!

Immaculate conception was achieving a full and complete male human body.

 

[Inspiredsaint]

From a discussion elsewhere I had about the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

Mary was a sinner like every other human on earth. If she wasnt she wouldnt have had to be full of grace. Grace is undeserved favor. Jesus didnt have marys dna nor Joseph's. Because both carried adams sin in thier inheritance just like we were.. the baby was imputed into marys womb.god needed her womb . By the holy spirit. Jesus had no sin because he didnt have marys or josephs dna

 

[Genez]

Mary was a sinner like every other human on earth. If she wasnt she wouldnt have had to be full of grace. Grace is undeserved favor. Jesus didnt have marys dna nor Joseph's. Because both carried adams sin in thier inheritance just like we were.. the baby was imputed into marys womb.god needed her womb . By the holy spirit. Jesus had no sin because he didnt have marys or josephs dna

Sin entered the world through Adam.
Sin did not enter the world through Eve.

That is why it says that in Adam all died.

1 Corinthians 15:22​

​

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.​

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[markss]

Some in the forum want to control the direction of the narrative.
They do not really know how to discuss it....

So true . . .

 

[Magenta]

So odd to even think God needed a sperm in order to cause Mary to conceive.

You know? He Who spoke the universe into existence? Out of nothing?

 

[Dino246]

OK. So you have a bar of hardened stainless steel, at least, that's what the foundry said when they sold it to you. But how can you know for certain? Let's say, you DO know for certain, how do you show others that it's what it's supposed to be.

You perform hardness testing. You already know it's going to pass, but you test regardless to validate this knowing. Or to show others.

The fundamental nature of hardness testing is that it's an attempt to make a dent in the metal, even though it can't, if the metal is what it is supposed to be.

You seem to be starting with an "unknown", Is this steel actually hardened, I don't know. Is Jesus impeccable, I don't know.

So you can test to determine the nature of what is being tested, and you can test to demonstrate the nature of what is being tested.

Peter would disagree with you on this point of testing even when there is a known result. God allows us to be tested, knowing what the result will be. It shows our nature, proving our faith. To us, to others around us, just like Jesus being tested. Not because the answer was uncertain, but so that we could know the certainty ourselves.

Or so it seems to me.

Much love!

Again you conflate the testing of our faith with the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness. They are not the same thing.

If Jesus could not sin, then what happened in the wilderness was not the "testing" of His moral character, but the mere demonstration of it. Words like "tempted" and "tested" would not be used, because they are not accurate descriptions of the events. Scripture clearly states that Jesus was tempted, yet He did not sin. "Temptation" is simply the wrong word for something that cannot result in sin.

Here is the statement in context:

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

If Jesus was "tempted in every way, just as we are" then He was tempted in such a way that sin was possible. If sin were not possible, He was not "tempted... as we are".

 

[markss]

If Jesus could not sin, then what happened in the wilderness was not the "testing" of His moral character, but the mere demonstration of it. Words like "tempted" and "tested" would not be used, because they are not accurate descriptions of the events. Scripture clearly states that Jesus was tempted, yet He did not sin. "Temptation" is simply the wrong word for something that cannot result in sin.

I'd suggest you spend some time examining that passage in Peter. Or not, it's all up to you.

Peirasmos . . . translated as both tempt and test.

Much love!

 

[Genez]

So odd to even think God needed a sperm in order to cause Mary to conceive.

You know? He Who spoke the universe into existence? Out of nothing?

Who spoke the original sperm into existence?

The Holy Spirit did whatever was needed to fertilize the "seed" of the woman because Jesus could not have a human father.
Jesus had to have a true human body like Adam's at the point when Adam was created. Before Adam fell.

For all the sins of the world that came through Adam were to be poured on the sinless body of Jesus.

That is why Jesus was called the "lamb of God" that takes away the sins of the world.....
A lamb that had to be without spot or blemish (having no defect = no sin nature).

grace and peace .......

 

[markss]

If Jesus was "tempted in every way, just as we are" then He was tempted in such a way that sin was possible. If sin were not possible, He was not "tempted... as we are".

We are tempted by sin because we have corruption in our flesh. This is why inside we want sinful things. The desire for sinful things itself is sin. Are you supposing it was the same for Jesus?

When some contrary circumstance incites you to sin, I'd call it temptation. When you resist the incitement to sin, I'd call it a testing. The word itself carries both meanings.

Much love!

 

[Genipher]

Children from Adam?
Must come through Adam.... to be children of Adam.

God does all as He chooses.
God does not choose to contradict his plan.

He chooses not to.

Matthew 3:9
and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
-- John the Baptist

 

[Lovette]

And it shows nothing of the old man can survice into the new man. Our old life was so completely corrupted we need complete renewal.

I've heard it mentioned that Moses was not able to lead the Israelites into the promised land being an illustration of the fact that the Law can't save.

Much love!

Yes, but keep in mind, that law is a mirror that reflects sin, only then could grace save you from sin. It's like diagnosis and treatment for disease, wrong diagnosis of sin would lead to false jesus and false salvation.

 

[Lovette]

This leaves your comment regarding the meaning of 1Cor. 15:47 as the only thing lacking in our discussion.

That's not a subject for debate either, if you ditch your black and white thinking and put it in the context of Paul's explanation on resurrection.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Then please explain where the body was, and how did he get out of the tomb. Don't tell me it's teleportation or other supernatural stuff, that's a ghost does, Luke's account explicitly shows the Lord didn't appear as a ghost. "Return to dust" simply means mortal death, separation of body and spirit, it doesn't necessarily mean decay. Denying him returning to dust is denying his huminity, for when he humbled himself to human form, "return to dust" is an ineluctable fate this choice entails.

nope ... "return to dust" means the body decays ... turns to dust.

Act 13:35-37

35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

David's body is long gone ... decayed (saw corruption – vs 36).

The Lord Jesus Christ was raised from the dead before His body decayed (He saw no corruption – vs 37).

Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

The Lord Jesus Christ stood in the midst of His disciples ... no one saw Him enter and walk into the room. The record in John 20 indicates the doors were shut. The Lord just appeared in their midst as the 2 men who were on the road to Emmaus were telling the disciples they had seen the Lord Jesus Christ. Read the full record in Luke from vs 13 through to vs 49. It's an amazing record.

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[Lovette]

nope ... "return to dust" means the body decays ... turns to dust.

Act 13:35-37

35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

David's body is long gone ... decayed (saw corruption – vs 36).

The Lord Jesus Christ was raised from the dead before His body decayed (He saw no corruption – vs 37).

Nope, "see corruption" is decay, "return to dust" is death.

The Lord Jesus Christ stood in the midst of His disciples ... no one saw Him enter and walk into the room. The record in John 20 indicates the doors were shut. The Lord just appeared in their midst as the 2 men who were on the road to Emmaus were telling the disciples they had seen the Lord Jesus Christ. Read the full record in Luke from vs 13 through to vs 49. It's an amazing record.

"Flesh and bones" indicate that Lord Jesus has sumbitted to the physical limits of flesh and bones. There were more than twelve disciples, including the two on the Emmas road, by the time of the Lord's ascension there were 120 in total in the upper room, and He was moving incognito until he revealed his identity to the disciples. In Jn's account, it states that Jesus CAME, not "appeared" like "puff" out of the thin air.

Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” (Jn. 19:19)

 

[GWH]

That's not a subject for debate either, if you ditch your black and white thinking and put it in the context of Paul's explanation on resurrection.

That's not a commentary on 1Cor. 15:47 either.
How about ditching comments about my thinking and state yours in that context?

 

[Lovette]

That's not a commentary on 1Cor. 15:47 either.
How about ditching comments about my thinking and state yours in that context?

It has everything to do with your thinking. You want a commentary, here it is, "lord of heaven" is not exclusive with "man of dust". In 1 Cor. 15:47, the "first man" is the model for the "second man", you can't have the son of God without the son of man.

Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom. 1:1-4)

 

[ChristIsTruth]

No, Mary wasn't sinless. The Word never says this. It's a traditional belief, not based on the Word.

 

[JayWalker]

No, Mary wasn't sinless. The Word never says this. It's a traditional belief, not based on the Word.

And Jesus said:

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Nope, "see corruption" is decay, "return to dust" is death.

ok ... that is your understanding of the term "return to dust". I understand the term "return to dust" as the decay of the body back to dust from whence it came ... which did not occur in the case of the Lord Jesus Christ, for He was resurrected on the third day ... hallelujah!!!

"Flesh and bones" indicate that Lord Jesus has sumbitted to the physical limits of flesh and bones.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

We do not know what "physical limitations" there were regarding the resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ. In Luke 24:31, He vanished from the sight of the two men:

Luke 24:30-31

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


In Acts 1, the resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ ascended up into heaven:

Acts 1:6-10

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel


There is a day yet future when we will be clothed with our house from heaven (2 Cor 5:2) and we shall then be like Him for we shall see Him face to face (1 John 3:2).

There were more than twelve disciples, including the two on the Emmas road, by the time of the Lord's ascension there were 120 in total in the upper room, and He was moving incognito until he revealed his identity to the disciples. In Jn's account, it states that Jesus CAME, not "appeared" like "puff" out of the thin air.

Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” (Jn. 19:19)

Luke 24:36-37

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

The two men who ate with the Lord Jesus Christ in Emmaus were present at this time and they had already told the disciples they had seen the risen Lord (Luke 24:33-35) ... yet the folks assembled were "terrified and affrighted" when the Lord appeared ... which does not make sense if He had knocked on the door, waited for someone to open the door, then walked in after someone opened the door.

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[GWH]

It has everything to do with your thinking. You want a commentary, here it is, "lord of heaven" is not exclusive with "man of dust". In 1 Cor. 15:47, the "first man" is the model for the "second man", you can't have the son of God without the son of man.

Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. (Rom. 1:1-4)

I understand you think Adam was the model man and Jesus was a copy, and you cannot have a copy without an original.
My understanding is that Jesus has always been the Son of God, and you would not have Adam if Jesus had not created him.

Also, God the Son became the incarnate Son of Man in order to be Messiah and atone for the sins of Adam (who was merely
the first human), after which He was resurrected, which proved His deity and superiority to Adam/humanity. Thus, teaching
the One from heaven is equivalent to those He created from dust is false.