Was Mary Sinless?

[TruthDefender]

The sin nature is passed from the father, not the mother. This is why Jesus was uniquely the "seed of a woman." Having no earthly father, He inherited no sin nature. It is also a biological miracle that He was male, since we know today that the Y chromosome is passed directly from father to son. Every other man on earth shares Adam’s Y chromosome, but Jesus was the only one to ever bypass that lineage.

Jesus was God in the flesh, and was tempted by all sin, but was found blameless.

 

[Lovette]

I understand you think Adam was the model man and Jesus was a copy, and you cannot have a copy without an original.
My understanding is that Jesus has always been the Son of God, and you would not have Adam if Jesus had not created him.

Also, God the Son became the incarnate Son of Man in order to be Messiah and atone for the sins of Adam (who was merely
the first human), after which He was resurrected, which proved His deity and superiority to Adam/humanity. Thus, teaching
the One from heaven is equivalent to those He created from dust is false.

My understanding is based on 1 Jn. 4:1-4, the rule of thumb to tell false christs from the true one. What you don't understand is through incarnation, the creator of the universe humbled himself to what he created from the dust, thus demonstrated that "he exalts himself will be humbled, he who humbles himself will be exalted." Your "false equivalence" is a strawman argument.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

 

[Lovette]

ok ... that is your understanding of the term "return to dust". I understand the term "return to dust" as the decay of the body back to dust from whence it came ... which did not occur in the case of the Lord Jesus Christ, for He was resurrected on the third day ... hallelujah!!!

Resurrection is God breathing into dust, it is only logical for the Lord to return into dust first.

We do not know what "physical limitations" there were regarding the resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ. In Luke 24:31, He vanished from the sight of the two men:

He could've just left and the two men didn't notice.

The two men who ate with the Lord Jesus Christ in Emmaus were present at this time and they had already told the disciples they had seen the risen Lord (Luke 24:33-35) ... yet the folks assembled were "terrified and affrighted" when the Lord appeared ... which does not make sense if He had knocked on the door, waited for someone to open the door, then walked in after someone opened the door.

That makes more sense than just appear like "puff" out of the thin air. The Lord rose in flesh and blood, yet you're reducing him to an ethereal ghost with your baseless speculations.

 

[Lovette]

We do not know what "physical limitations" there were regarding the resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ. In Luke 24:31, He vanished from the sight of the two men:

Actually we do know - limitations of flesh and bones. Lord Jesus's power comes from the Holy Spirit, not his own. He performed miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, in the same way Moses before him and the Peter after him who performed miracles.

 

[bytheblood]

Ask yourself what "return to dust" means to you. To me, again, it means mortal death, not decomposition of the body. He couldn't have been in "hell" in the first place without mortal death first.

Corruption can also mean moral AND bodily decay. But we know that Jesus wasn't morally corrupt so that leaves His body that God didn't let see corruption, in turning back to dust.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Resurrection is God breathing into dust, it is only logical for the Lord to return into dust first.

under your understanding of "return to dust" meaning death ... yes.

under my understanding of "return to dust" meaning decay of the body ... no.




reneweddaybyday said: We do not know what "physical limitations" there were regarding the resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ. In Luke 24:31, He vanished from the sight of the two men:

He could've just left and the two men didn't notice.

or He could have vanished ... just as Scripture tells us:

Luke 24:30-31

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.




reneweddaybyday said: The two men who ate with the Lord Jesus Christ in Emmaus were present at this time and they had already told the disciples they had seen the risen Lord (Luke 24:33-35) ... yet the folks assembled were "terrified and affrighted" when the Lord appeared ... which does not make sense if He had knocked on the door, waited for someone to open the door, then walked in after someone opened the door.

That makes more sense than just appear like "puff" out of the thin air. The Lord rose in flesh and blood, yet you're reducing him to an ethereal ghost with your baseless speculations.

Reading and believing what's written is not "baseless speculations".

You want me to believe that the disciples were "terrified and afrighted" when the Lord Jesus Christ knocked on the door and, in plain view of those present, He walked in when the door was answered. There would be no need for them to be "terrified and affrighted" if He entered as you claim.

And I'm not saying He appeared and/or disappeared like an "ethereal ghost". I simply believe that His resurrected body was not like the bodies we currently inhabit. There was much more capability in His resurrected body and in the future, we will have bodies like His. We will be able to see God without dying (Ex 33:20). We will see more than just His back parts.

Have you ever read Acts 8:26-40? What do you think of vss 39-40?

Act 8:39-40

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

.

 

[bytheblood]

Look, there shouldn't be anything controversial to debate. If Jesus hadn't returned to dust, he couldn't have resurrected, since resurrection is God breathing life into dust, just like how he created Adam and how he resurrected the two witnesses. Denial of Jesus's return to dust is denial of his death.

"Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them." (Rev. 11:11)

The bible never says that the two witnesses had turned to dust. It, as I remember, said their bodies laid in the street for three days. Are you saying that Lazarus had returned to dust before Jesus resurrected him? Are you saying that as soon as someone dies they are dust? Jesus didn't think so regarding Lazarus. A bodies components consists mostly of earth (dust) so technically, living or dead, man is but dust and there is no need for death to be referred to as dust. Carried to the end this is what you seem to imply. To most, I believe, after death, when the body corrupts (decays), then it returns to dust.

Then please explain where the body was, and how did he get out of the tomb. Don't tell me it's teleportation or other supernatural stuff, that's a ghost does, Luke's account explicitly shows the Lord didn't appear as a ghost. "Return to dust" simply means mortal death, separation of body and spirit, it doesn't necessarily mean decay. Denying him returning to dust is denying his huminity, for when he humbled himself to human form, "return to dust" is an ineluctable fate this choice entails.

Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

You asked questions that the bible doesn't answer, " where the body was, and how did He get out of the tomb " then you handicap him by saying don't tell you some things. One of the things you don't want to hear is " other supernatural stuff ". WHAT! You want someone to explain a move of God but to leave out the " supernatural stuff " You're joking right, LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL. Thanks for the laugh )

 

[Lovette]

Corruption can also mean moral AND bodily decay. But we know that Jesus wasn't morally corrupt so that leaves His body that God didn't let see corruption, in turning back to dust.

Can you be morally corrupt in the realm of the dead? Lol.

 

[Lovette]

under your understanding of "return to dust" meaning death ... yes.

under my understanding of "return to dust" meaning decay of the body ... no.

Under our mutual understanding, "see corruption" meaning decay of the body, that's the phrase used in Acts 2:27, not "return to dust".

or He could have vanished ... just as Scripture tells us:

Or he could have just walked away while they were eating the bread.

Reading and believing what's written is not "baseless speculations".

You want me to believe that the disciples were "terrified and afrighted" when the Lord Jesus Christ knocked on the door and, in plain view of those present, He walked in when the door was answered. There would be no need for them to be "terrified and affrighted" if He entered as you claim.

And I'm not saying He appeared and/or disappeared like an "ethereal ghost". I simply believe that His resurrected body was not like the bodies we currently inhabit. There was much more capability in His resurrected body and in the future, we will have bodies like His. We will be able to see God without dying (Ex 33:20). We will see more than just His back parts.

They were terrified because they thought they were seeing a ghost. Your implication of "much more capability" such as passing through walls would essentially make him a ghost, for flesh and bones don't pass through walls, only ghost/spirit does. This was unequivocably refuted by the Lord himself: "Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Have you ever read Acts 8:26-40? What do you think of vss 39-40?

I think Philip just walked away while the eunuch was immersed in the water.

 

[Lovette]

The bible never says that the two witnesses had turned to dust. It, as I remember, said their bodies laid in the street for three days. Are you saying that Lazarus had returned to dust before Jesus resurrected him? Are you saying that as soon as someone dies they are dust? Jesus didn't think so regarding Lazarus. A bodies components consists mostly of earth (dust) so technically, living or dead, man is but dust and there is no need for death to be referred to as dust. Carried to the end this is what you seem to imply. To most, I believe, after death, when the body corrupts (decays), then it returns to dust.

Your understanding is at odds with the biblical definiton of life: body + spirit = soul (living being). Upon death, spirit departs, body remains, which is just dust, decomposed or not.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7)
... when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last. (Lk. 23:46)

You asked questions that the bible doesn't answer, " where the body was, and how did He get out of the tomb " then you handicap him by saying don't tell you some things. One of the things you don't want to hear is " other supernatural stuff ". WHAT! You want someone to explain a move of God but to leave out the " supernatural stuff " You're joking right, LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL. Thanks for the laugh )

Explain to me then how did he get out of the tomb - as flesh and bones, then. Show me where was the incorruptible body, and how the shroud was neatly folded in its place. Actually there is a valid and biblical explaination - Lord Jesus was preaching to the demonic spirits in Hades during those three days.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. (1 Pt. 3:18-20)

 

[GWH]

My understanding is based on 1 Jn. 4:1-4, the rule of thumb to tell false christs from the true one. What you don't understand is through incarnation, the creator of the universe humbled himself to what he created from the dust, thus demonstrated that "he exalts himself will be humbled, he who humbles himself will be exalted." Your "false equivalence" is a strawman argument.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

1John 4:1-4 is what I am doing with regard to your assertion that because Jesus humbled Himself
He is no better than/different from Adam. That falsehood (ignoring Phil. 2:9-11) doesn't fly with orthodox Christians,
so I wonder why you insist on it. Were you converted from Judaism?

 

[Lovette]

1John 4:1-4 is what I am doing with regard to your assertion that because Jesus humbled Himself
He is no better than/different from Adam. That falsehood (ignoring Phil. 2:9-11) doesn't fly with orthodox Christians,
so I wonder why you insist on it. Were you converted from Judaism?

Are you evoking the heresy of Docetism? That's what 1John 4:1-4 targets at, and that's the only thing I'm against.

 

[GWH]

Are you evoking the heresy of Docetism? That's what 1John 4:1-4 targets at, and that's the only thing I'm against.

No, although after His resurrection the spiritual body of Jesus might have seemed physical when Thomas saw the scars.

 

[Lovette]

No, although after His resurrection the spiritual body of Jesus might have seemed physical when Thomas saw the scars.

Then it's just a matter of semantics, "return to dust" means mortal death to me, based on Gen. 2:7, while it means decomposition to you based on its literal meaning, seemingly.

And to your question, I'm theologically aligned with messianic Judaism.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Jesus was God in the flesh, and was tempted by all sin, but was found blameless.

I don’t see your point or how it applies to my post.

 

[TruthDefender]

I don’t see your point or how it applies to my post.

It was a miracle that Jesus was male!?! Jesus didn’t have the “sin nature”, because He came through woman!?!

Where did you come up with these man made ideas? Scripture please??

 

[TruthDefender]

No, although after His resurrection the spiritual body of Jesus might have seemed physical when Thomas saw the scars.

He was in the flesh! This is why He wanted doubting Thomas to feel the holes in His hands and feel His side.

He also disappeared from their sight and reappeared in a different form (looking like a different person) to some of them; they didn’t recognize Him. He is God in the flesh, and can change form, disappear at will.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

It was a miracle that Jesus was male!?! Jesus didn’t have the “sin nature”, because He came through woman!?!

Where did you come up with these man made ideas? Scripture please??

What other man on earth was a seed of a woman? And since the Y chromosome which a man has to have to be a man is only passed from the father, yes it was another miracle that Jesus was male having no biological earthly father. That’s just an scientific fun fact. Are you saying that Jesus had the inclination towards sin that all others have?

 

[Genez]

Mary was not sinless.
Her own confession revealed it.

​

And Mary said:

“My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.


A sinless person needs no Savior!


Luke 1:46-47

 

[GWH]

Then it's just a matter of semantics, "return to dust" means mortal death to me, based on Gen. 2:7, while it means decomposition to you based on its literal meaning, seemingly.

And to your question, I'm theologically aligned with messianic Judaism.

Yes re semantics, and re messianic Judaism that is what I suspected.
(Your candelabra icon gives it away :^)