Was Mary Sinless?

[JayWalker]

Mary was not sinless.
Her own confession revealed it.

​

And Mary said:

“My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.


A sinless person needs no Savior!

Luke 1:46-47

Yep, this is true

 

[TruthDefender]

What other man on earth was a seed of a woman? And since the Y chromosome which a man has to have to be a man is only passed from the father, yes it was another miracle that Jesus was male having no biological earthly father. That’s just an scientific fun fact. Are you saying that Jesus had the inclination towards sin that all others have?

The virgin birth IS the miracle. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. This was already foretold in the OT what would happen.

Oh so I see what you’re saying! Lol
I wasn’t thinking from the science standpoint.

However, Jesus was tempted, but was found innocent. I’m not sure what you’re saying about this?

 

[Just_A__Follower]

The virgin birth IS the miracle. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. This was already foretold in the OT what would happen.

Oh so I see what you’re saying! Lol
I wasn’t thinking from the science standpoint.

However, Jesus was tempted, but was found innocent. I’m not sure what you’re saying about this?

We inherit a sin nature(inclination to rebel) from Adam through the seed passed from our earthly fathers. We are more inclined to turn against God and sin when we are tempted. Jesus on the other hand being born of a virgin would not have inherited that nature. If He did He would’ve possessed the nature to rebel against Himself. He was tempted in the same way we are if not worse, but He was not inclined to rebel against Himself being God.

 

[TruthDefender]

We inherit a sin nature(inclination to rebel) from Adam through the seed passed from our earthly fathers. We are more inclined to turn against God and sin when we are tempted. Jesus on the other hand being born of a virgin would not have inherited that nature. If He did He would’ve possessed the nature to rebel against Himself. He was tempted in the same way we are if not worse, but He was not inclined to rebel against Himself being God.

Idk, the “sin nature” doesn’t seem biblical? I’m not really familiar with that term. Ik sin entered the world when Adam and Eve’s eyes were opened after eating the forbidden fruit; if this is what you mean?

However, Scripture doesn’t teach us that we are born with sin. Babies are innocent. You have to have an understanding as to what is right and wrong for you to sin.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

Idk, the “sin nature” doesn’t seem biblical? I’m not really familiar with that term. Ik sin entered the world when Adam and Eve’s eyes were opened after eating the forbidden fruit; if this is what you mean?

However, Scripture doesn’t teach us that we are born with sin. Babies are innocent. You have to have an understanding as to what is right and wrong for you to sin.

Not born with sin but born with a desire to sin basically. Think of it like a genetic disease passed down from father to child.
Scripture shows we are "brought forth in iniquity" from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5) and are "by nature" children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). This inherited sin nature is a "default setting" of a deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9) that passed from Adam to all humanity (Romans 5:12).

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭51‬:‭5‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17‬:‭9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1‬:‭35‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[Genez]

Idk, the “sin nature” doesn’t seem biblical? I’m not really familiar with that term. Ik sin entered the world when Adam and Eve’s eyes were opened after eating the forbidden fruit; if this is what you mean?

However, Scripture doesn’t teach us that we are born with sin. Babies are innocent. You have to have an understanding as to what is right and wrong for you to sin.

Terms to explain what the Bible teaches have developed over the years that are not given by name directly
in the Bible.

For example? The Scriptures contained no chapters and verses in the original copy.
But believers over time developed the system so we can all be on the same page when studying Scripture.

In that sense... Paul taught about what many now commonly call "the sin nature" in Romans 7:14-18.

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. ​

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that ​

I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will ​

not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer ​

I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. ​

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to ​

will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. ​

​

Romans 7:14-18​

There is where we developed the concept that "the sin nature" abides in our fallen flesh!

Sin nature not in our souls.
In the body. That is why the sin nature was passed down physically from Adam!

Yet, it is the fallen nature found in the body that influences our souls to try to make our soul want to sin.

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. ​

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells.​

​

Why was Paul able to say that his flesh was no longer who he really is?

​

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20​

grace and peace ..............

 

[TruthDefender]

Not born with sin but born with a desire to sin basically.

This I understand, ok. True, because Satan is in the world doing the enticements.

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

But we no longer have this spirit of the world.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Think of it like a genetic disease passed down from father to child.
Scripture shows we are "brought forth in iniquity" from the moment of conception (Psalm 51:5) and are "by nature" children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). This inherited sin nature is a "default setting" of a deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9) that passed from Adam to all humanity (Romans 5:12).

This seems like inherited sin, which God talked about in the OC. We no longer have inherited sin. Again, Eph 2:8.

“And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭51‬:‭5‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17‬:‭9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Yes, all are under worldliness/ sin till you choose life/ Jesus over death.

“And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1‬:‭35‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Under our mutual understanding, "see corruption" meaning decay of the body, that's the phrase used in Acts 2:27, not "return to dust".

Psalm 104:29 states that folks "die" and "return to dust":

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.


Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 states that folks "die" and "return to dust":

Ecc 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.




reneweddaybyday said: or He could have vanished ... just as Scripture tells us:

Luke 24:30-31

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Or he could have just walked away while they were eating the bread.

your conjecture does not align with what is stated in Scripture.

According to Thayer's, the word "vanished" is translated from the Greek word aphantos which means taken out of sight, made invisible: ἄφαντος ἐγένετο ἀπ' αὐτῶν, he departed from them suddenly and in a way unseen, he vanished.




reneweddaybyday said: Have you ever read Acts 8:26-40? What do you think of vss 39-40?

I think Philip just walked away while the eunuch was immersed in the water.

more conjecture ... they were out of the water ... the Spirit of God caught Philip away ...

Act 8:39-40

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

.

 

[TruthDefender]

Terms to explain what the Bible teaches have developed over the years that are not given by name directly
in the Bible.

Then I would say it’s man made.

For example? The Scriptures contained no chapters and verses in the original copy.
But believers over time developed the system so we can all be on the same page when studying Scripture.

This is not the same thing. Just adding numbers helps with location, nothing is being changed.

In that sense... Paul taught about what many now commonly call "the sin nature" in Romans 7:14-18.

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. ​

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that ​

I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will ​

not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer ​

I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. ​

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to ​

will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. ​

​

Romans 7:14-18​

There is where we developed the concept that "the sin nature" abides in our fallen flesh!

Sin nature not in our souls.
In the body. That is why the sin nature was passed down physically from Adam!

Yet, it is the fallen nature found in the body that influences our souls to try to make our soul want to sin.

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. ​

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells.​

Just because many say the “sin nature” term doesn’t make it right.

​

Why was Paul able to say that his flesh was no longer who he really is?

​

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20​

grace and peace ..............

There is a war of the flesh in my members…. Secret sin/ sensual…. like Paul, sometimes hard to control, if we are not careful. I think we’ve all sinned in this sense. However, Jesus helps us to control these human feelings.

 

[Genez]

Then I would say it’s man made.

Is insight by a believer about God's Word something man made?

 

[bytheblood]

Can you be morally corrupt in the realm of the dead? Lol.

Let me break it down for you," we know Jesus WASN'T ( when He walked the earth ) morally corrupt ( not ISN'T), that's why it was His body that God kept from corruption (decay). BTW, are those who are are choosing to go to hell ( the realm of the dead ), where there'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth, still be alive? Would you consider them to be morally corrupt?

 

[bytheblood]

No, although after His resurrection the spiritual body of Jesus might have seemed physical when Thomas saw the scars.

Thomas not only saw the scars, he touched them.

Then I would say it’s man made.


This is not the same thing. Just adding numbers helps with location, nothing is being changed.


Just because many say the “sin nature” term doesn’t make it right.


There is a war of the flesh in my members…. Secret sin/ sensual…. like Paul, sometimes hard to control, if we are not careful. I think we’ve all sinned in this sense. However, Jesus helps us to control these human feelings.

The flesh in these passages refer to a mind set. Our flesh (bodies) decide NOTHING, it only follows either the soul or the Spirit." For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God " Rom 8:14

 

[bytheblood]

Your understanding is at odds with the biblical definiton of life: body + spirit = soul (living being). Upon death, spirit departs, body remains, which is just dust, decomposed or not.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7)
... when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last. (Lk. 23:46)

Explain to me then how did he get out of the tomb - as flesh and bones, then. Show me where was the incorruptible body, and how the shroud was neatly folded in its place. Actually there is a valid and biblical explaination - Lord Jesus was preaching to the demonic spirits in Hades during those three days.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. (1 Pt. 3:18-20)

I'll answer your questions after you tell me, biblically, what Jesus did between the ages of 13 and 30.

 

[Genez]

I'll answer your questions after you tell me, biblically, what Jesus did between the ages of 13 and 30.

And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

He lived perfectly as a young Jewish man. Luke 2:41-52

​

​

Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. ​

When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. ​

After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed ​

behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, ​

they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. ​

When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they ​

found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them ​

questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his ​

parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us ​

like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”​

​

“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” ​

But they did not understand what he was saying to them.​

​

Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured ​

all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.​

grace and peace ........

 

[UnoiAmarah]

He lived perfectly as a young Jewish man. Luke 2:41-52

And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. Luke 2:43
And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. Luke 2:48
Why Mary would have referred unto Joseph as his father?

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. Luke 2:49-51
While the author used the term 'them", do you think Jesus saw Joseph and Mary as twain?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Matt 19:4-6

So do you think he was speaking to man that is not married?
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matt 5:28

 

[Aussie52]

We inherit a sin nature(inclination to rebel) from Adam through the seed passed from our earthly fathers. We are more inclined to turn against God and sin when we are tempted. Jesus on the other hand being born of a virgin would not have inherited that nature. If He did He would’ve possessed the nature to rebel against Himself. He was tempted in the same way we are if not worse, but He was not inclined to rebel against Himself being God.

We are not born with a 'sinful nature' but a 'human nature' polluted by sin. There is a difference.

 

[Lovette]

Psalm 104:29 states that folks "die" and "return to dust":

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.


Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 states that folks "die" and "return to dust":

Ecc 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

So? All of these are just validation of Gen. 3:19, nothing about decay or decomposition is mentioned.

your conjecture does not align with what is stated in Scripture.

According to Thayer's, the word "vanished" is translated from the Greek word aphantos which means taken out of sight, made invisible: ἄφαντος ἐγένετο ἀπ' αὐτῶν, he departed from them suddenly and in a way unseen, he vanished.

Yeah, invisible to those two disciples, out of their sight.

more conjecture ... they were out of the water ... the Spirit of God caught Philip away ...

What does that have anything to do with the resurrection or the empty tomb? Keep your red herring to yourself.

 

[Lovette]

Let me break it down for you," we know Jesus WASN'T ( when He walked the earth ) morally corrupt ( not ISN'T), that's why it was His body that God kept from corruption (decay). BTW, are those who are are choosing to go to hell ( the realm of the dead ), where there'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth, still be alive? Would you consider them to be morally corrupt?

Idk, would you? One man's mortality is another's immorality. I only acknowledge absolute objective truth from God.

 

[Lovette]

I'll answer your questions after you tell me, biblically, what Jesus did between the ages of 13 and 30.

Working as a tekton, which is a general term for craftsman, more likely a stonemason than a carpenter.

 

[Genez]

And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. Luke 2:43
And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. Luke 2:48
Why Mary would have referred unto Joseph as his father?

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. Luke 2:49-51
While the author used the term 'them", do you think Jesus saw Joseph and Mary as twain?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Matt 19:4-6

So do you think he was speaking to man that is not married?
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matt 5:28

You mean to say one can not refer to the man who adopted you, as your father, when asked who your parents are?