Was Mary Sinless?

[Lovette]

You're conflating SPIRIT with BEING.

We are human BEINGS
not human SPIRITS.

No need to specify which spirit since your entire premise is incorrect.

What this shows is your ignorance. "Human spirit" is a particular biblical term for the life force of a human being, the very breath that God exhaled into the dust of our body.

• Job 32:8 (ESV): "But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand."
• Proverbs 20:27 (MSG): "The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the innermost parts of the inner being."
• Romans 8:16 (NIV): "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children."
• Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV): "...the spirit returns to God who gave it."
• 1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV): "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him?"

 

[Lovette]

Just to add that I agree that a living being does, indeed, have a soul.
And we receive the spirit of God, which is added to our body and soul,
upon believing.

A living being doesn't "have" a soul, a living being IS a soul.

 

[GWH]

A living being doesn't "have" a soul, a living being IS a soul.

Yes, soul = body + spirit (Gen. 2:7).

 

[Lovette]

Yes, soul = body + spirit (Gen. 2:7).

Amen, so be it.

 

[Gideon300]

Spirit cannot die, if it's unclean, ungodly, it'll suffer for eternity, that's what the second death is for. I don't need a degree in Hebrew to know that because it's all in the bible, that is clear as day.

Is the bible the highest authority on earth? Above the pope, the government or any other ecclesiastical figure? Yes or no?

It is relevant because that's the correct way to understand the "day" which Adam will die for eating the forbidden fruit. He didn't die on that 24'hour day, he died within a 1000 years. There's no such thing as "spiritual death". If Adam had died spiritually, then enlighten me, when was he born spiritually? When did he get baptized and receive the Holy Spirit? When? If he had never been born of the spirit, how could he be dead of the spirit?

Adam was created with a live spirit. Every single human being has a spirit. It exists but it is dead to God, until God enlivens us. Adam was created in the image of God. God is Spirit. If you are correct (you are not) then no one apart from believers has a spirit. The OT is full of references to the human spirit.

"But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding." Job 32:8

"The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, searching out his inmost being." Proverbs 20:27

The NT also says "For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him?" 1 Corinthians 2:11 It does not say this applies only to believers.

You also believe, I assume, that God took 6,000 years to create the world we live in now.

If you really believe, as I do, that the Bible is the highest authority, you will accept that the spirit of man was imparted at his creation.

The moment that Adam disobeyed God, he realised that he was naked and he was ashamed. He hid from God. He tried to cover up. And that is spiritual death.

 

[Gideon300]

A living being doesn't "have" a soul, a living being IS a soul.

"Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being."

The KJV is wrong. It is not "living soul". The correct translation is "living being." Hebrew for soul is nephesh; being is lenepes. I don't have a key that can reverse the first "e". Check it out yourself.

 

[Genez]

Oh the irony.

Proverbs 27:17 perhaps?


........................... Irony sharpens irony.

 

[Genez]

We are our soul.
Jesus did not save our spirit.
He did not save our body.
Jesus saves our souls.

When we are born again God gives our soul a human spirit. John 3:6

That human spirit makes our soul capable of thinking in the realm of the spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14

 

[GWH]

Adam was created with a live spirit. Every single human being has a spirit. It exists but it is dead to God, until God enlivens us. Adam was created in the image of God. God is Spirit. If you are correct (you are not) then no one apart from believers has a spirit. The OT is full of references to the human spirit.

"But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding." Job 32:8

"The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, searching out his inmost being." Proverbs 20:27

The NT also says "For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him?" 1 Corinthians 2:11 It does not say this applies only to believers.

You also believe, I assume, that God took 6,000 years to create the world we live in now.

If you really believe, as I do, that the Bible is the highest authority, you will accept that the spirit of man was imparted at his creation.

The moment that Adam disobeyed God, he realised that he was naked and he was ashamed. He hid from God. He tried to cover up. And that is spiritual death.

God creates souls and He will destroy evil souls after justice is achieved in hell.

 

[JayWalker]

God creates souls and He will destroy evil souls after justice is achieved in hell.

That's not what Jesus said... you would be claiming Jesus is a liar would ya?

Matthew 13:41,42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If they ceased to exist then there wouldn't be any wailing and gnashing of teeth

 

[Toknow]

What this shows is your ignorance. "Human spirit" is a particular biblical term for the life force of a human being, the very breath that God exhaled into the dust of our body.

• Job 32:8 (ESV): "But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand."
• Proverbs 20:27 (MSG): "The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the innermost parts of the inner being."
• Romans 8:16 (NIV): "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children."
• Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV): "...the spirit returns to God who gave it."
• 1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV): "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him?"

What is it with this forum?
I don't agree with YOU so I'M ignorant?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe YOU are the ignorant one??

Study up on Christian theology....
maybe you'll actually learn something.

 

[Toknow]

A living being doesn't "have" a soul, a living being IS a soul.

A living being HAS a soul.

Do you know what Divine Simplicity is??
Find out.

Only God has it....not humans.

 

[GWH]

That's not what Jesus said... you would be claiming Jesus is a liar would ya?

Matthew 13:41,42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If they ceased to exist then there wouldn't be any wailing and gnashing of teeth

Jesus also inspired Paul to teach that God is just.

 

[Genez]

A living being doesn't "have" a soul, a living being IS a soul.

A living being has a spiritually alive soul!
A soul that lives being able to know God...

​

Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground ​

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man ​

became a living being. Gen 2:7​

"Breath of life."
That is what we end up getting from a typical translation.

But it is not what the Hebrew contains.

For what gets translated as 'breath of life' in the Hebrew?
Is a Plurality. .... "Breath of Lives."

A soul and human spirit both together were breathed into the nostrils!
Which made Adam a living human soul.
Spiritually alive to God!

Look here! Why does Genesis 2:7 read חַיִּ֑ים plural rather than singular

When Adam ate the forbidden fruit?
He did not drop dead physically.
Yet the Lord said he would die!

How's that?
He lost his human spirit, and died spiritually.

That is why Jesus said that typical men (who had souls) were "dead."

Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”​

​

He said to another man, “Follow me.”​

​

But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”​

​

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”​

​

Luke 9:58-60​

​

​

​

grace and peace!



......

 

[Genipher]

I guess that takes care of that!
Luke 1:46 must certainly be the key.
or is it ?

Let me ask you this....
Why do YOU need a savior?

If Mary was sinless,,,
Why would SHE need a savior?

Do you believe the creator of the universe could so whatever He wants to do?
Or do you limit Him in some way?

Mary needed a savior to save her from sinning.
YOU need a savior because you already have sinned.

God did not place His Son...who is GOD...in the body of a sinful person...
in the body of a person that had the sin nature from birth.

This is why Mary was immaculately conceived....
she never had any sin in her.

BTW,,,I'm not Catholic so you could concentrate on showing where, from scripture, it states that Mary sinned somehow.
It does not.
So we cannot ASSUME anything except what we read.

I tend to not be dogmatic about doctrine that cannot be absolutely proven with scripture....and the IC really cannot...
however we also shouldn't discard what some in the early church believed to be true and what makes common sense, at least to me.

Romans 3:23 says ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
If Mary was an exception I would think there would be an addition to that scripture to clarify...

 

[Gideon300]

God creates souls and He will destroy evil souls after justice is achieved in hell.

Man's spirit is eternal. He will be conscious in hell for eternity. The story of the rich man and Lazarus confirms that.

 

[GWH]

Man's spirit is eternal. He will be conscious in hell for eternity. The story of the rich man and Lazarus confirms that.

Eternal suffering would be just only for someone whose sins were infinite.

 

[Caan]

No.

 

[Gideon300]

Eternal suffering would be just only for someone whose sins were infinite.

Mankind is born dead in trespass and sin. Sin has to be paid for in order for God's justice to be satisfied. The wages of sin is death. Man has nothing to pay the debt with because he is already dead. So eternal separation from God is inevitable. And that is hell.

If suffering was enough to pay for man's sin, then the death of Jesus is meaningless. Once the person had suffered enough, they would be free from the penalty of sin. The problem with that idea is that they would still be dead spiritually. What do you do then? Does God destroy them after punishing them for for however long it takes to pay for their sins? What would be the point? Men do that kind of thing. God does not.

 

[Lovette]

Adam was created with a live spirit. Every single human being has a spirit. It exists but it is dead to God, until God enlivens us. Adam was created in the image of God. God is Spirit. If you are correct (you are not) then no one apart from believers has a spirit. The OT is full of references to the human spirit.

"But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding." Job 32:8

"The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, searching out his inmost being." Proverbs 20:27

The NT also says "For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him?" 1 Corinthians 2:11 It does not say this applies only to believers.

So apparently, this debunks the theory of "spiritual death", since Adam didn't die on that day, otherwise the departure of his "human spirit" would result in his immediate mortal death. "Dead to God" is empty rhetoric at this point, if being "alive to God" refers to being born again in the Holy Spirit, which didn't exist in the OT.

You also believe, I assume, that God took 6,000 years to create the world we live in now.

You assumed wrong. I believe God has a 7000 year plan, each day in the creation week is a literal 24-hour day, since each is divided into night time and day time; the six days are a blueprint for the entire human history of 6000 years, 2000 from the exile from Eden to the covenant with Abraham, 2000 from Abraham to the crucifixion of Christ, 2000 from Christ to the second coming, and we're near the end. Afterward is the millennial reign for literally 1000 years.

If you really believe, as I do, that the Bible is the highest authority, you will accept that the spirit of man was imparted at his creation.

The moment that Adam disobeyed God, he realised that he was naked and he was ashamed. He hid from God. He tried to cover up. And that is spiritual death.

Nope, the chunkful of OT examples for "human spirit", such as Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV), plainly and clearly shows that departure of "human spirit" from the body is equivalent to mortal death. That could be the death of his relationship with God, but not the death of spirit, which by and of itself is a fabricated concept that leads to annihilationism.