Was Mary Sinless?

[Lovette]

How's that?
He lost his human spirit, and died spiritually.

Absolutely false, loss of human spirit is equivalent to mortal death. Adam didn't die on that 24-hour day, he lived 930 years.

... and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV))

 

[Lovette]

"Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being."

The KJV is wrong. It is not "living soul". The correct translation is "living being." Hebrew for soul is nephesh; being is lenepes. I don't have a key that can reverse the first "e". Check it out yourself.

I agree, but the formula is the same: Soul (living being) = body + spirit, it's not an independent, separate third entity. Man was not given a soul, it BECAME a soul.

 

[Lovette]

What is it with this forum?
I don't agree with YOU so I'M ignorant?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe YOU are the ignorant one??

Study up on Christian theology....
maybe you'll actually learn something.

Alright, you go study up "human spirit" in those references first.

A living being HAS a soul.

Do you know what Divine Simplicity is??
Find out.

Only God has it....not humans.

Divine simplicity teaches me a living being IS a soul, you're contradicting the biblical definition of life in Gen. 2:7, which is rudimentary.

 

[Genez]

I give up....

Because, under these circumstances, I should.

 

[bytheblood]

I guess that takes care of that!
Luke 1:46 must certainly be the key.
or is it ?

Let me ask you this....
Why do YOU need a savior?

If Mary was sinless,,,
Why would SHE need a savior?

Do you believe the creator of the universe could so whatever He wants to do?
Or do you limit Him in some way?

Mary needed a savior to save her from sinning.
YOU need a savior because you already have sinned.

God did not place His Son...who is GOD...in the body of a sinful person...
in the body of a person that had the sin nature from birth.

This is why Mary was immaculately conceived....
she never had any sin in her.

BTW,,,I'm not Catholic so you could concentrate on showing where, from scripture, it states that Mary sinned somehow.
It does not.
So we cannot ASSUME anything except what we read.

I tend to not be dogmatic about doctrine that cannot be absolutely proven with scripture....and the IC really cannot...
however we also shouldn't discard what some in the early church believed to be true and what makes common sense, at least to me.

If Mary was sinless, and she wasn't, and had a Savior to prevent her from sinning (according to you ) did Jesus, who was certainly sinless, need a Savior to prevent Him from sinning?/ No, God didn't " place His Son in the body of a sinful person", I agree " Wherefore when He (Jesus) cometh into the world, He saith, sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, BUT A BODY HAST THOU PREPARED ME: Hebrews 10:5. God prepared His body Himself. Also the genesis of sin is NEVER the body, it's the soul, which is generally the mind, will and emotions./ Where, in scripture, do you get that Mary was conceived immaculately?/ I needed a Savior because I couldn't pay for my sins, the same reason every one sired of an earthly man and born of a woman does, including the woman. Mary said so herself, she has a Savior./ God limited Himself when He said " and let them(man) have dominion" on earth. This is why God HAD to become man, the only one who could pay for our sins had to be one " after it's own kind." This is why He so often referred to Himself as the "Son of man" because while in His earthly sojourn He NEVER operated AS God, even though He is, but strictly as man, wholly dependent upon the Holy Spirit and communion with the Father, as we should. He is our example. God does not work , on earth, independent of man, " Surely the Lord WILL DO NOTHING, but He revealeth His secret ( what He's going to do on earth) unto His servants the prophets." Amos 3:7

 

[bytheblood]

If you're utterly convinced that soul is an indespensible part, then it'd be the rebellious part that quenches the spirit, the feeling Paul personally had struggled with, I'll give you that.


Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. (Rom. 7:13-20)

If you notice in Romans 7 the Holy Spirit or the Father are hardly mentioned, if at all. He is referring to trying to live by the flesh or soul, in his own strength. That's why by verse 25 he's thanking God that the only way to overcome that dilemma is to operate out of his renewed mind and not his flesh. We cannot live the Christian life with a fleshly mind.

 

[bytheblood]

If you're utterly convinced that soul is an indespensible part, then it'd be the rebellious part that quenches the spirit, the feeling Paul personally had struggled with, I'll give you that.


Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. (Rom. 7:13-20)

Are you saying the the rebellious part of the soul( the unrenewed part of the mind ) is indispensable? Maybe to Satan but not to live Christlike. Don't give me that, it's not what I espouse.

 

[Genipher]

....I believe God has a 7000 year plan, each day in the creation week is a literal 24-hour day, since each is divided into night time and day time; the six days are a blueprint for the entire human history of 6000 years, 2000 from the exile from Eden to the covenant with Abraham, 2000 from Abraham to the crucifixion of Christ, 2000 from Christ to the second coming, and we're near the end. Afterward is the millennial reign for literally 1000 years.

I dont think I've heard another person talk about this before. Just learned about this a few years ago and it makes so much sense.

 

[Lovette]

If you notice in Romans 7 the Holy Spirit or the Father are hardly mentioned, if at all. He is referring to trying to live by the flesh or soul, in his own strength. That's why by verse 25 he's thanking God that the only way to overcome that dilemma is to operate out of his renewed mind and not his flesh. We cannot live the Christian life with a fleshly mind.

In other words, following, not quenching the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lovette]

I dont think I've heard another person talk about this before. Just learned about this a few years ago and it makes so much sense.

This is a traditional Jewish view of history known as the Millennial Day, which could be traced back to Barnabas, Paul's comrade. There're calculations based on biblical genealogy and chronicle, along with records from apocryphal books. You add it all up from Adam to Christ, you can get roughly close to 4000 years. Some argue that the "intertestmental" period is absent, but it isn't, it's the 490 years in Daniel's prophecy. The greatest challenge for most listeners newly exposed to this is to thorooughly ditch the evolutionary worldview, that the earth is billions years old, humans descended from great apes, that's Satan's lying narrative in the garden, that mankind can become god. If there was an "ice age", that would be the residue of Noah's flood, huge amount of flood water was just frozen into ice, all earthly creatures were drowned and rapidly buried.

 

[Lovette]

Are you saying the the rebellious part of the soul( the unrenewed part of the mind ) is indispensable? Maybe to Satan but not to live Christlike. Don't give me that, it's not what I espouse.

Nope, it is your theology that soul is an independent entity apart from body and spirit, and I was ridiculing you that if such were the case, then the soul would be your unrenewed, rebellious self-being. I didn't give you anything, what I did was throwing what you gave me back to you.

 

[GWH]

Mankind is born dead in trespass and sin. Sin has to be paid for in order for God's justice to be satisfied. The wages of sin is death. Man has nothing to pay the debt with because he is already dead. So eternal separation from God is inevitable. And that is hell.

If suffering was enough to pay for man's sin, then the death of Jesus is meaningless. Once the person had suffered enough, they would be free from the penalty of sin. The problem with that idea is that they would still be dead spiritually. What do you do then? Does God destroy them after punishing them for for however long it takes to pay for their sins? What would be the point? Men do that kind of thing. God does not.

Re "Does God destroy them after punishing them for for however long it takes to pay for their sins?":
Yes per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14.

There is no point in keeping them hanging around in hell for eternity.

 

[Gideon300]

Re "Does God destroy them after punishing them for for however long it takes to pay for their sins?":
Yes per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14.

There is no point in keeping them hanging around in hell for eternity.

There is no point in punishing someone then destroying them. That's the way of sinful man, not a loving God. Man chooses his destiny, heaven or hell. That decision holds for eternity.

 

[Gideon300]

I agree, but the formula is the same: Soul (living being) = body + spirit, it's not an independent, separate third entity. Man was not given a soul, it BECAME a soul.

Sure, it became a soul but it is still a separate organ. Luke 1:46. So no, the soul is neither the body nor the spirit.

 

[Gideon300]

So apparently, this debunks the theory of "spiritual death", since Adam didn't die on that day, otherwise the departure of his "human spirit" would result in his immediate mortal death. "Dead to God" is empty rhetoric at this point, if being "alive to God" refers to being born again in the Holy Spirit, which didn't exist in the OT.

You assumed wrong. I believe God has a 7000 year plan, each day in the creation week is a literal 24-hour day, since each is divided into night time and day time; the six days are a blueprint for the entire human history of 6000 years, 2000 from the exile from Eden to the covenant with Abraham, 2000 from Abraham to the crucifixion of Christ, 2000 from Christ to the second coming, and we're near the end. Afterward is the millennial reign for literally 1000 years.

Nope, the chunkful of OT examples for "human spirit", such as Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV), plainly and clearly shows that departure of "human spirit" from the body is equivalent to mortal death. That could be the death of his relationship with God, but not the death of spirit, which by and of itself is a fabricated concept that leads to annihilationism.

So you pick and choose whether a day is 1,000 years or 24 hours to suit your own opinion. Suit yourself. I don't agree.

 

[Gideon300]

A living being doesn't "have" a soul, a living being IS a soul.

Not according to God's word.

 

[Lovette]

Sure, it became a soul but it is still a separate organ. Luke 1:46. So no, the soul is neither the body nor the spirit.

Then I respectfully disagree. Conscious and subconscious are in the same brain.

 

[Lovette]

So you pick and choose whether a day is 1,000 years or 24 hours to suit your own opinion. Suit yourself. I don't agree.

And suit yourself with your "spiritual death", which doesn't exist. As much as no one can live without air, no one can be bodily alive while "spiritually" dead.

 

[Lovette]

Not according to God's word.

Yes according to God's word, first mention rule.

 

[Genez]

Absolutely false, loss of human spirit is equivalent to mortal death. Adam didn't die on that 24-hour day, he lived 930 years.

... and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7 (ESV))

Careful now... spirit and breath are the same word at times.

The human spirit returns to God who gave it.
For the human spirit stores all the Biblical truth we accepted and lived by in this lifetime.
It will be by means of our human spirit's content of knowledge and understanding that
the Lord will use to evaluate our lives.

Our human spirit's content will be found to be either gold, silver and precious tones....
Or, or our soul's wood, hay and stubble will reveal a failing grade.

​

​

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has ​

been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will ​

suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

1 Corinthians 3:11-15