Was Mary Sinless?
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Firstly, I know full well that AI isn't scripture, and you know, or should know, that, but it did give a name that fits what you were trying to say, didn't it? I was looking for a name for that period, that's why I asked you, I never said that you were wrong. I know that the patriarchs are long gone so it can't still be that age. They also were living, strictly, by grace through faith, just as we, but just as the fulness of our salvation has not manifested yet, the fulness of grace hadn't come until Jesus, grace personified, was born of a virgin. ' The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ" sounds an awful lot like what I said, but worded differently. The schoolmaster (law) taught us that" we could never satisfy the requirements for righteousness", that was the lesson, to teach us that we needed a Savior.
Or to think more highly of yourself than you ought.The breath of life came into Adam AFTER his body was formed directly from God. Only his body was created from the earth.
It is one thing to overthink, it is quite another to not think at all.
If we both worked on different jobs and your job has a 10 min. grace period when clocking in before you are charged with being late but my lob only has a 5 min. grace period aren't we both given grace, although they are not in the same time frame?
That's your thinking, not mine.
Why can't you acknowledge that the breath in Adam was not made from the earth? You made a claim he was made from the earth, I showed you only his body was but you would rather criticize me in defense of yourself than correct your thinking. So be it.
"Patriarchal Age" is the name you want to use for that period of time and that is fine. I do not refer to that era as anything other than the period of time before the giving of the law to Moses ... or a period of time when God dealt with the elder in the family. That is not me "trying" to say anything other than what I have stated.
The issue we are discussing is not grace in and of itself.
We both agree that God has abundantly graced mankind throughout all ages ... past, present, and will continue to grace mankind in the future.
We both agree that salvation is wholly by grace through faith in all ages ... past, present, and future.
God is the One Who calls this period of time in which we live "the dispensation of the grace of God":
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward
The time in which we live is unique. We have access to the heavenly Holy of Holies ... the very throne room of God (of which the tabernacle in the wilderness and the temple were just shadows):
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
to come boldly means we can come at any time, we can speak freely and without reservation, we can speak with confidence.
Our access "unto the throne of grace" is through a "new and living way" ... distinctly different than in prior ages:
Hebrews 10:19-22
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
I hope/pray you realize that the time we live now in is separate and distinct from any prior age ... even though there are some similarities (i.e. grace, faith, salvation, etc. etc.).
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Adam WAS formed from the dust of the earth. " And the Lord God formed MAN of the dust of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN BECAME a living soul." I have NEVER, EVER posted that the breath of life was made from the earth. Show me some receipts! I know, as you whined before when I asked asked for receipts, " It was so long ago " ( either you or Genez, same, same), but you can't anyway. Note;" Man became" even before the breath of life, he was man.
Just as in the example I gave to you, as weak as it might have been, the grace given to you by your job is separate and distinct from the grace given to me by mine, but grace none the less. I fully realize that the two eras a different, the major one being that the blood of Christ, in this dispensation, has been sprinkled on the mercy seat, paying for the sins of the whole world, including those before, during and after the law. The time we live in now is not completely unique, the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies once a year, shadows, as you said, of what was to come. I know why and what the requirements were but just to show that there is " nothing new under the sun."
The age in which we now live is completely unique.
The earthly High Priest went into the Holy of Holies once a year only.
Our great High Priest sits in the heavenly Holy of Holies ... ever present before the Father ... our great High Priest "ever liveth to make intercession for us" (Hebrews 7:25).
Perhaps not "new" in the sense that the age in which we now live was hid in God from the foundation of the world and no one knew about it until God revealed to Paul that he was the minister of the "dispensation of the grace of God". The age we now live in was not revealed to Paul until after the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ into heaven ... and we live in a time that is not the same age as what you refer to as the "Patriarchal Age".
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You just said it in the above post. You really don't seem to understand the implications of your words. Adam was created (bara) by God in Gen.1:27 , his body and only his body was formed (yatsar) from the dust. God breathed into that body human life (the soul He created Gen1:27 ) and spiritual life (spirit). I know you believe Adam was created spirit, soul and body so, while also claiming He was made from the earth, can only lead to the conclusion the breath of life came from the earth as it is with animals. Animals have a breath of life but you never see God breathing that life into them throughout scripture, do you? They, including their breath of life, was manufactured from the earth as I showed you in Gen.1:24 which, is why the scripture says their life is in the blood. You really need to think deeper on things, you are missing so much.
Yes man (Adam) existed before God formed his body, that's what I have said all along. Our humanity, consciousness (of self and others), volition, mentality, emotion, conscience is all found in the function of our soul which God created in Gen1:27, two souls, male and female.
Gen.1:27
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
What's the point of giving you receipts? I give them every time I make a point and you ignore them! You are constantly reading what I say with the thought of defending your position rather than listening to see if what I say is true, hence this reactionary "I never said" attitude I keep getting.
If something has been done already, even once a year, that takes it out of the " completely unique " category. I never implied that the Patriarchal Age and this age are the same, but both are driven( for lack of a better term) by God's grace and faith, and not of law.
You have REALLY reached some wrong conclusions! I believe that mankind is spirit, soul and body because the Bible says as much, " And the very God of peace sanctify you WHOLLY; and I pray God your WHOLE spirit AND soul AND body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess. 5:23. The wholeness of ALL mankind IS spirit and soul and body, according to scripture. Notice the order. While your order is soul, spirit and body. Adam existed before being formed, but only in the plans of God. God formed man of the dust of the earth, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, then man(before breath) BECAME(after breath) a living soul. Gen 2:7. The breath of life came from God, according to scripture, so the wrong conclusion you have come to is that I, according to you, believe that that breath came from the earth. You couldn't be more mistaken. You can't give me receipts saying that I said mans breath came from the earth because I never said that or even implied it. That only occurred via you wrong conclusions. P.S. You also conclude that animals received their breath from the earth, but scripture doesn't support that idea. We don't know, scripture doesn't tell us. So if scripture is silent on this issue, so should we be, not presenting conclusions as facts. P.S. Again, " For it is the the life of ALL FLESH; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, you shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of ALL FLESH is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off." Lev. 17:14 These are dietary instructions but the repeat of ALL FLESH cannot be ignored, knowing that man needs blood to live in the flesh. The blood(life) of Abel cried out to God from the ground even though the body was dead.
you do not believe God's grace was not evident under the law? ... that faith was not evident under the law?
As far as the "dispensation of the grace of God" being completely unique from every other age or era, the words of the Lord Jesus Christ corroborate this truth:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
before the Lord Jesus Christ could "go away", He first had to come.
After the Lord Jesus Christ went away, then He could send the Comforter ... not before ... not in any other prior age ... the Comforter is the "promise of the Father":
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
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Excuse me? I've never said the order is soul first. That's just your wrong conclusions. We are born fallen creatures which is why we cannot be born of God and be connected to Him in this fallen state. We need a Saviour first and as our Saviour was slain from the foundation of the earth, all those who have believed in Him, can be born of God and receive a human spirit so we can be connected to Him and be restored to what we ought to be, spirit, soul and body.
Scripture is not silent on how animals are made, they are made from the earth. I have shown you this many, many times.
Genesis 1:24
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
Here you can see it in a Hebrew analysis. Their soul is not created in the image of God nor is it breathed into them from God but is brought forth from the earth. They became living souls from the earth, whereas Adam became a living soul from the breath of God. This is why the scripture, when speaking of animals, says their life is in the blood because their life is in their physical being made from the elements.
The essence of man, what makes you, YOU is not found in your spirit or your body but in your soul. It is what contains your personality and where you build character. We need a spirit to connect us to God who is the Reality/Truth so that our personality doesn't become warped. We are souls. Your refusal to concede this warps your understanding of how we function and how we are made. It is souls we find in Sheol before the Cross, it is souls we find under the altar waiting for the end, not spirits but souls.
Adam's body was formed (yatsar) from the dust of the earth Gen.2:7. Adam's soul was created (bara) out of nothing as only God can do Gen.1:27. Go look it up. Two different Hebrew words to describe two different operations.
I'm done explaining this. You have been given more than enough information to think beyond your cursory glance at scripture.
We have already agreed that grace on earth has been evident at least since the fall of Adam, faith also pre-dates the law, we both know this so, why are you falling back on an argument that I'm not making? The period before the law, you call it when God dealt with the elders or something like that, excuse me but I don't feel like searching backwards, but that period was mainly through God's grace, mercy and faith, not the law. He dealt with the elders by grace through faith.
You are expert at twisting my words and making points that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. We were talking about animal spirit or breath, you assume it came from the earth, yes, their bodies did, but on how they received breath the bible is silent. You assume that it came from the earth. I can assume that when God brought form of the animals to Adam to see what he would call them, Adam " followed (imitated) God as His dear child " (Eph. 5:1), called out cow and moo was it's first breath. After all Adam, the son of God, sinless before the fall, had the same authority the last Adam had on earth. But that's just assuming, because the Bible is silent on how animals received spirits ( or breath). The most important part for man to exist on earth is spirit because " the body without the spirit( not the soul) is dead." James 2:26. When the spirit leaves a man so does his breath.... every man. MY life force on earth is my spirit. I will agree that God is concerned about our souls because that's where we make decisions, " choose ye this day", but Satan also is interested in our souls, and that's where the battle takes place, determining our final destination. As I've shown you before, mans spirit returns to God (goes up). So the choice we, in our souls, make BEFORE the spirit leaves the body is paramount. But without the spirit...............
No it is not. Read the Hebrew text. They became living souls from the earth.
I was focusing on another forum which as of today I have quit--way too over-moderated.
Nice people, but extremely biased on certain subjects. The moderators are way too invested in their own opinions, and control the arguments to make their arguments reign supreme. That isn't the way I like to discuss things with brothers and sisters. Thank you so much for asking! I'm still here!
I think anybody who, like Mary, has embraced Rebirth remains filled with Grace. John wrote, "Nobody born of God practices Sin." Mary called God her "Savior." That implies inherent Sin that needed to be atoned for. If she was descended from Adam, and she was, she carried the spiritual deformity we all have and that required remediation by Christ.