Was Mary Sinless?

[sawdust]

" To have soul is to have breath" #2167 So animals have souls also but no spirit, okay right. By scripture, I disagree, they have souls and spirits. Man is born with a spirit, the Holy Spirit draws us spiritually, not through our souls. I don't ignore the reason man has a spirit, man has to have a spirit to live on earth, " For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26 That word spirit isn't capitalized so it's not talking about the Holy Spirit. " Then saith He unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even UNTO death: tarry ye here, and watch with Me." Matt. 26:38 " And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, Father, into thine hands I commend My SPIRIT: and having said this, He gave up the ghost(spirit)." Luke 23:46. Every mans spirit is the life force of the body, not just those born again. Abraham, Gen.25:8, Ishmael, Gen 25:17 and Isaac, Gen 35:29 all gave up the ghost(spirit) and died. Was Ishmael born again? Tell me Sawdust, when did he get born again? You said only those born again have spirits, P.S. I don't believe Abraham or Isaac were either, yet.

You just keep repeating the same old thing and fail to prove anything.

Spirit gives birth to spirit. Show us in the scriptures where animals are born of God. Show where spirit is born of the earth for that is what animals are made from.

Once again, the word that is sometimes translated spirit, also means breath. We are dead in our sins before salvation. Are we physically dead? So it is not our bodies that die without spirit but without breath.

Man has to have breath to be alive on earth that is why it says man became a living soul, not a living spirit. Man needs a spirit to be spiritually alive to God which, is why Christ said you must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of God. He did not say you must be born again to be alive on earth. To be born means to come into existence, it does not mean to revive something already existing.

You raise verses that are ridiculous in light of our discussion. Of course Christ gave up His spirit to the Father, He was born spiritually alive the Only Man born so since the day Adam was created that way. Again, we are dead in our sins before salvation. That is not a physical death. Adam died the Day he ate just as the lord God said he would. He did not die physically, physical death is the outward manifestation of the inner reality.

A man's spirit is the apparatus that connects man to God. It is what enables him to discern spiritual matters which is taught by the Holy Spirit. Without a spirit the things of God are foolishness. This is why Christ said to see the kingdom of God, which is spiritual in nature, one must be born again.

Try reading those Gen. passages in some other translations. Most say they took their last breath because the word used isn't even ruach, the usual word translated spirit. Your argument is null and void. You should do your homework properly before you make wild claims.

What's the difference between being " spiritually dead " and not having a spirit at all, as you profess?

There is no difference. To be spiritually dead is to have no human spirit.

You are a soul. When You do not have a body You are physically dead. When You do not have a spirit, You are spiritually dead. This is why the Holy Spirit must birth/generate, bring into existence, a human spirit so you can connect to God who is Spirit.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Having a spirit is necessary for spiritual understanding, it is not necessary in order to breathe.

 

[Bible_Locket]

Do you have any case studies that show that children cannot do good without being taught to do good?

Humans learn through pattern recognition, and trial and error. Absent of any adult instruction, if doing a good thing achieves discernible benefits, a child will repeat the efficient good behaviour until it proves statistically less beneficial than doing something bad instead. If doing something evil benefits a child, they will repeat the evil strategy to get the same benefit, until it proves non-beneficial. But without instruction, a child does not construe their own behaviour morally. The child’s society overlays a subjective moral framework over a child and defines what society regards as good and bad. But often, what society dedesignates as good is not good from God’s perspective. And what society designates as bad is not bad as far as God is concerned.

I taught my children the golden rule: Do to others what you want others to do to you. When their behaviour was not according to that rule, I pointed it out by asking them to tell me what they just did. And then I would ask, “Would you want someone to do that to you? What did Jesus teach?” In other words, I taught my kids how to discern between good and evil by applying the subjective golden rule. Once they know how to discern between good and evil, they don’t need to be taught a complex set of sub-rules. They can reason their own way to what specific behaviour is appropriate for any particular situation.

But knowing the right thing to do does not empower one to do it in all cases, as Romans 7 explains. The gospel provides the scaffolding we need to follow through on the golden rule in all cases, because it defangs death, as Roman 8 explains.

I don't have any reason to accept your premise that children need to be taught to do good and don’t need to be taught toi do evil. I thing children need to be taught how to discern between good and evil via the golden rule. And they need to be taught how to consistently apply and practise the golden rule by living yoked to Jesus Christ.

Maybe consider there are traditions in the faith that teach the need for infant Baptism.

The idea being newborns and even the unborn will go to Hell.

Which can explain,not necessarily that it does explain the ideology shared by, @bytheblood, why some believe babies, children are by nature, bad. Unless or until they're taught to do good and behave well.

 

[PaulThomson]

Maybe consider there are traditions in the faith that teach the need for infant Baptism.

The idea being newborns and even the unborn will go to Hell.

Which can explain,not necessarily that it does explain the ideology shared by, @bytheblood, why some believe babies, children are by nature, bad. Unless or until they're taught to do good and behave well.

Traditions within Christendom are not necessarily true representations of reality. Why assume babies are born morally corrupt?

 

[Bible_Locket]

Traditions within Christendom are not necessarily true representations of reality. Why assume babies are born morally corrupt?

The only tradition I know that holds to that ideology is Roman Catholicism.

 

[Gideon300]

Your two statements placed side by side imply the second is a result of the first.
1. “… we are born in trespass and sin."
2. "We sin because we are sinners by nature”.

I was conceived in a hotel room and I was born in a hospital. That in no way implies that I have a hotel room and a hospital IN me. And either does it imply, in any way, that I have a hotel room nature or a hospital nature.

We are born IN trespasses and sin, does not imply in any way that we sin because we have a sin nature, or are sinners by nature.

Argue with God. I state what the Bible declares.

God warned Adam that if he ate the forbidden fruit, he would die. he did not die physically. He died spiritually. Adam's first response was to hide from God. Why? He sinned thorough disobedience. And everyone but Jesus was born dead to God. That is in your Bible too.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12

Your analogy is inapplicable. Sin is not a physical location. It's a spiritual condition. It's hereditary. A German mother may be visiting France and give birth to a baby there. The baby will be German, not French.​

 

[Gideon300]

You're right.
Holy Spirit God cursed all humanity for eternity on Earth for the one mistake the first of our kind made in Eden.

"God is Love" Gideon300

Newborns, the unborn,go to Hell as sinners if they die in utero or as newborns?

There is an age at which children become responsible for their actions because they know right from wrong. God holds children innocent until that age. I remember when I knew right from wrong. I was 12.

You are wrong about God cursing humanity. God cursed the ground and He cursed Satan. He did not curse Adam. Mankind brought about evil on themselves by their wicked ways. Israel was an exception because of the covenant that they made with God, the covenant of law that included blessing and cursing.

Romans 1:28
"Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done." God's judgement is simple. Let humanity do as they please and live with the consequences. That is punishment enough. But people blame God anyway.

"Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassion never fails." Lamentations 3:22

"Then the LORD passed in front of Moses and called out: “The LORD, the LORD God, is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in loving devotion and faithfulness.........." Exodus 34:6

"........This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…" 1 Timothy 2:3-5​

 

[rewriter]

You don't have to teach a child to do wrong.

But the important question is, at what point in time does a child begin to do "wrong" and why that point in time. The timing does not fit with an inherited sin nature.

There is an age at which children become responsible for their actions because they know right from wrong. God holds children innocent until that age. I remember when I knew right from wrong. I was 12.

You are wrong about God cursing humanity. God cursed the ground and He cursed Satan. He did not curse Adam. Mankind brought about evil on themselves by their wicked ways. Israel was an exception because of the covenant that they made with God, the covenant of law that included blessing and cursing.

Romans 1:28
"Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done." God's judgement is simple. Let humanity do as they please and live with the consequences. That is punishment enough. But people blame God anyway.

"Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassion never fails." Lamentations 3:22

"Then the LORD passed in front of Moses and called out: “The LORD, the LORD God, is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in loving devotion and faithfulness.........." Exodus 34:6

"........This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…" 1 Timothy 2:3-5​

Can you back up your claim that God holds children innocent for their action prior to their awareness of right and wrong? I would agree that children are born innocent, but I would also hold that children are responsible when they commit their first sin, even if they are unaware of their action being sin. It is not God's choice that sin leads to death, anymore than it is God's will that a false belief that one can fly leads them to jump from the top of a skyscraper, the action leads to an inevitable outcome.

 

[dkontner]

I have a feeling a child becomes responsible when they realize they are naked. Just a hunch.

God is righteous, I don't concern myself with His workings.

 

[PaulThomson]

Argue with God. I state what the Bible declares.

God warned Adam that if he ate the forbidden fruit, he would die. he did not die physically. He died spiritually. Adam's first response was to hide from God. Why? He sinned thorough disobedience. And everyone but Jesus was born dead to God. That is in your Bible too.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12

Your analogy is inapplicable. Sin is not a physical location. It's a spiritual condition. It's hereditary. A German mother may be visiting France and give birth to a baby there. The baby will be German, not French.​

I am not arguing with God. I am disagreeing with your opinion on what the Greek and Hebrew texts God authored mean.

Adam did eventually die physically. He did not immediately die either physically or spiritually.

God told Adam, “In the day you eat of it, to die (infinitive absolute, מוֹת ) you will be dying (Qal imperfective, תָּמוּת ).” That means you will start dying until you eventually do die.

You are simply making claims without being able to provide any textual proof for those views.

 

[PaulThomson]

Argue with God. I state what the Bible declares.

God warned Adam that if he ate the forbidden fruit, he would die. he did not die physically. He died spiritually. Adam's first response was to hide from God. Why? He sinned thorough disobedience. And everyone but Jesus was born dead to God. That is in your Bible too.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12

Your analogy is inapplicable. Sin is not a physical location. It's a spiritual condition. It's hereditary. A German mother may be visiting France and give birth to a baby there. The baby will be German, not French.​

36 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Build thee an house in Jerusalem, and dwell there, and go not forth thence any whither.

37 For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die (מוֹת תָּמוּת): thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

38 And Shimei said unto the king, The saying is good: as my lord the king hath said, so will thy servant do. And Shimei dwelt in Jerusalem many days.

39 And it came to pass at the end of three years, that two of the servants of Shimei ran away unto Achish son of Maachah king of Gath. And they told Shimei, saying, Behold, thy servants be in Gath.

40 And Shimei arose, and saddled his ass, and went to Gath to Achish to seek his servants: and Shimei went, and brought his servants from Gath.

41 And it was told Solomon that Shimei had gone from Jerusalem to Gath, and was come again.

42 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the Lord, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die (מוֹת תָּמוּת)? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

43 Why then hast thou not kept the oath of the Lord, and the commandment that I have charged thee with?

44 The king said moreover to Shimei, Thou knowest all the wickedness which thine heart is privy to, that thou didst to David my father: therefore the Lord shall return thy wickedness upon thine own head;

45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the Lord for ever.

46 So the king commanded Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; which went out, and fell upon him, that he died. And the kingdom was established in the hand of Solomon.

Domesticated donkeys can travel at 3.5 km/hr and 35 km/day. Jerusalem to Gath is 55km. Shimei did not make the 110 km round trip in one day. Shimei was not killed immediately. Nor on the day he left Jerusalem. But on the day he left his eventual consequential death was inevitable. On the day Adam sinned his eventual consequential death became inevitable. Ir was not immediate.

 

[bytheblood]

Of course. But it is alienated from God. Hardened and unable to understand the things of God.

I asked because a remnant of wood (Sawdust ) believes that only those saved have spirits.

 

[bytheblood]

I am not arguing with God. I am disagreeing with your opinion on what the Greek and Hebrew texts God authored mean.

Adam did eventually die physically. He did not immediately die either physically or spiritually.

God told Adam, “In the day you eat of it, to die (infinitive absolute, מוֹת ) you will be dying (Qal imperfective, תָּמוּת ).” That means you will start dying until you eventually do die.

You are simply making claims without being able to provide any textual proof for those views.

Isn't it true that Adam DID die that day, God's day, which is a 1,000 years? Adam lasted 930 yrs.

 

[Bible_Locket]

I asked because a remnant of wood (Sawdust ) believes that only those saved have spirits.

There are a lot of errant teachings.That being one.

 

[Gideon300]

Traditions within Christendom are not necessarily true representations of reality. Why assume babies are born morally corrupt?

It's not an assumption. The Bible says that we are born dead in trespass and sin. You do not have to teach a child to rebel or be selfish. It's inbuilt.

I am not arguing with God. I am disagreeing with your opinion on what the Greek and Hebrew texts God authored mean.

Adam did eventually die physically. He did not immediately die either physically or spiritually.

God told Adam, “In the day you eat of it, to die (infinitive absolute, מוֹת ) you will be dying (Qal imperfective, תָּמוּת ).” That means you will start dying until you eventually do die.

You are simply making claims without being able to provide any textual proof for those views.

 

[Gideon300]

I am not arguing with God. I am disagreeing with your opinion on what the Greek and Hebrew texts God authored mean.

Adam did eventually die physically. He did not immediately die either physically or spiritually.

God told Adam, “In the day you eat of it, to die (infinitive absolute, מוֹת ) you will be dying (Qal imperfective, תָּמוּת ).” That means you will start dying until you eventually do die.

You are simply making claims without being able to provide any textual proof for those views.

When Adam disobeyed God, he and Eve instantly saw that they were naked and they were ashamed. They tried to hide from God. It is obvious that death was not physical. It was obvious that the faculties of the soul still functioned. The part that died was the spirit. That spiritual death is passed on to every one descended from Adam.

Death is not the end of existence. It is separation from God. Adam and Eve separated themselves from God. God did not hide Himself from them.

Yes, Adam's body took over 900 years to fail. But spiritually, he died instantly. If your premise is correct, it would be possible to raise someone to be sinless. That is simply not the case. And God's word is crystal clear on that.​

 

[bytheblood]

You just keep repeating the same old thing and fail to prove anything.

Spirit gives birth to spirit. Show us in the scriptures where animals are born of God. Show where spirit is born of the earth for that is what animals are made from.

Once again, the word that is sometimes translated spirit, also means breath. We are dead in our sins before salvation. Are we physically dead? So it is not our bodies that die without spirit but without breath.

Man has to have breath to be alive on earth that is why it says man became a living soul, not a living spirit. Man needs a spirit to be spiritually alive to God which, is why Christ said you must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of God. He did not say you must be born again to be alive on earth. To be born means to come into existence, it does not mean to revive something already existing.

You raise verses that are ridiculous in light of our discussion. Of course Christ gave up His spirit to the Father, He was born spiritually alive the Only Man born so since the day Adam was created that way. Again, we are dead in our sins before salvation. That is not a physical death. Adam died the Day he ate just as the lord God said he would. He did not die physically, physical death is the outward manifestation of the inner reality.

A man's spirit is the apparatus that connects man to God. It is what enables him to discern spiritual matters which is taught by the Holy Spirit. Without a spirit the things of God are foolishness. This is why Christ said to see the kingdom of God, which is spiritual in nature, one must be born again.

Try reading those Gen. passages in some other translations. Most say they took their last breath because the word used isn't even ruach, the usual word translated spirit. Your argument is null and void. You should do your homework properly before you make wild claims.



There is no difference. To be spiritually dead is to have no human spirit.

You are a soul. When You do not have a body You are physically dead. When You do not have a spirit, You are spiritually dead. This is why the Holy Spirit must birth/generate, bring into existence, a human spirit so you can connect to God who is Spirit.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Having a spirit is necessary for spiritual understanding, it is not necessary in order to breathe.

From a Biblical and Theological perspective a man cannot live on earth without a spirit. Scripture CLEARLY outlines that the spirit is the essential " spark of life " or breath from God that animates physical matter, Without it a human body immediately ceases to function and becomes a corpse. The Bible explicitly establishes this rule through the mechanics of life, the definition of death, and the distinct structure of how humans are designed. Formula For Human Life: Gen. 2:7 " And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Foundational Blueprint; THE BODY= The physical "earth suit" made from the dust. Completely inanimate THE SPIRIT= Hebrew; Neshamah(closely tied to Ruach) meaning "the breath of life" or the divine power source directly from God. THE SOUL= Greek- Psyche, Hebrew-Nephesh. The soul is not a third "ingredient" mixed in; rather the soul is the seat of the mind, will, emotions and intellect of an individual that results when the spirit "animates" the body. Without the spirit(the electricity), the body( like computer hardware) cannot run the soul( the software ). Ecc. 12:7 ".. the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Pam 146:4 When a man dies " his spirits departs, he(body) returns to the earth, on that very day his plans(in his soul) perish." Luke 8:55 " Jairus' daughter being raised from the dead " And her spirit returned, and she arose immediately." While modern medicine can temporarily keep organs functioning via machines (biological life), biblically, true human life requires a spirit. The moment a spirit is fully gone, a person has crossed the threshold into death. Sources: Central Baptist Theological ; Got Questions ; Quora- Christian Bible Studies; Supernatural Truth; David Hernandez Ministries; Kimberly Payne. There are VERY FEW who agree with your stance on this issue. P.S. Spiritual death is being alive but separated from God. Spirits don't die.

 

[Gideon300]

Isn't it true that Adam DID die that day, God's day, which is a 1,000 years? Adam lasted 930 yrs.

Adam's death was spiritual, as evidenced by his desire to cover up and hide from God.

Psalm 51:5
"Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me."

That was David, the man after God's own heart.

 

[bytheblood]

But the important question is, at what point in time does a child begin to do "wrong" and why that point in time. The timing does not fit with an inherited sin nature.

Can you back up your claim that God holds children innocent for their action prior to their awareness of right and wrong? I would agree that children are born innocent, but I would also hold that children are responsible when they commit their first sin, even if they are unaware of their action being sin. It is not God's choice that sin leads to death, anymore than it is God's will that a false belief that one can fly leads them to jump from the top of a skyscraper, the action leads to an inevitable outcome.

I believe that when a child commits what, for those who know better, is called sin, God considers it "foolishness". " Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him." Pro. 22:15

 

[Gideon300]

You just keep repeating the same old thing and fail to prove anything.

Spirit gives birth to spirit. Show us in the scriptures where animals are born of God. Show where spirit is born of the earth for that is what animals are made from.

Once again, the word that is sometimes translated spirit, also means breath. We are dead in our sins before salvation. Are we physically dead? So it is not our bodies that die without spirit but without breath.

Man has to have breath to be alive on earth that is why it says man became a living soul, not a living spirit. Man needs a spirit to be spiritually alive to God which, is why Christ said you must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of God. He did not say you must be born again to be alive on earth. To be born means to come into existence, it does not mean to revive something already existing.

You raise verses that are ridiculous in light of our discussion. Of course Christ gave up His spirit to the Father, He was born spiritually alive the Only Man born so since the day Adam was created that way. Again, we are dead in our sins before salvation. That is not a physical death. Adam died the Day he ate just as the lord God said he would. He did not die physically, physical death is the outward manifestation of the inner reality.

A man's spirit is the apparatus that connects man to God. It is what enables him to discern spiritual matters which is taught by the Holy Spirit. Without a spirit the things of God are foolishness. This is why Christ said to see the kingdom of God, which is spiritual in nature, one must be born again.

Try reading those Gen. passages in some other translations. Most say they took their last breath because the word used isn't even ruach, the usual word translated spirit. Your argument is null and void. You should do your homework properly before you make wild claims.



There is no difference. To be spiritually dead is to have no human spirit.

You are a soul. When You do not have a body You are physically dead. When You do not have a spirit, You are spiritually dead. This is why the Holy Spirit must birth/generate, bring into existence, a human spirit so you can connect to God who is Spirit.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Having a spirit is necessary for spiritual understanding, it is not necessary in order to breathe.

It's very simple. God is Spirit. Man is made in God's image. God created man with a live spirit that was empty. Man was good but incomplete. God gave man free will to choose. You can't have real fellowship with a robot. Man obviously made the wrong choice. Salvation is God's way to restore man to the position that He intended for us in the first place.

The real person is the spirit that God placed within us. God never intended for the soul to rule. The soul is meant to serve the spirit.

God's Holy Spirit dwells in the born again spirit. He communicates truth to us there. Problems arise when Christians rely on their own thoughts, feelings and self will instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit. That is why there are so many differing points of view. And with pride being so strong in many, they cling to their point of view no matter what.

​

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Traditions within Christendom are not necessarily true representations of reality. Why assume babies are born morally corrupt?

It's not an assumption. The Bible says that we are born dead in trespass and sin. You do not have to teach a child to rebel or be selfish. It's inbuilt.

The Bible says nowhere that we are born dead in trespasses and sins. In fact, it says that Jacob and Esau in the womb had done nothing good or evil. So, what sin did they commit as they left the womb that made them become dead in trespasses and sins at birth?

Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purposeof God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth