Was the person who falls away drawn to Jesus by the Father?

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mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#41
Apr 7, 2014
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#41
Grandpa said:
The "2nd soil" "believer" hasn't come to Christ yet.

He heard the gospel and was happy because of it.

But when it came time to proving his faith and seeing it work he fell away.
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John has portrayed people who "believe" (to some level) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their "belief" was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. *So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly believe in Him unto salvation.

Some people may actually start out believing in Jesus (as they would believe in a politician, based on their own misconceptions, expectations and limited understanding) then later find out that Jesus does not line up with their original expectations.

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus they set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, then as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him.

Furthermore, the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "pisteuo" mental assent that "there is one God," but they do not believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#42
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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#42
Judges1318 said:
But back to the point of this thread.

If the 2nd type of soil is just a fake believer who never really believed then it can't be true that no one will come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. I mean in once saved always saved doctrine. Because it says that the ones that the Father gives to Jesus will always believe and can not stop believing. IOW, this person came to Jesus on their own.
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They never made it to Jesus.

That's the whole point.

No one comes to Jesus on their own.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#43
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#43
Grandpa said:
How do you stop? Having had "visual stimuli" to base your faith on?
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You have plenty of visual stimuli after being born again. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit, and that is why we believe. But before that, people have nothing but external stimuli that does not end in salvation. It leads them to accept a false Christ and a false gospel. It is these Christ does not commit himself to.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#44
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#44
Grandpa said:
They never made it to Jesus.

That's the whole point.

No one comes to Jesus on their own.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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Which is not to say that they NEVER will come to Jesus.

They just haven't made it yet, at this 2nd soil stage.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#45
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#45
mailmandan said:
John has portrayed people who "believe" (to some level) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their "belief" was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. *So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly believe in Him unto salvation.

Some people may actually start out believing in Jesus (as they would believe in a politician, based on their own misconceptions, expectations and limited understanding) then later find out that Jesus does not line up with their original expectations.

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus they set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, then as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him.

Furthermore, the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "pisteuo" mental assent that "there is one God," but they do not believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.
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Then you're saying that it's not true that we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. That people can in fact draw themselves so to speak.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#46
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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#46
Dave-L said:
You have plenty of visual stimuli after being born again. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit, and that is why we believe. But before that, people have nothing but external stimuli that does not end in salvation. It leads them to accept a false Christ and a false gospel. It is these Christ does not commit himself to.
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That's why I laughed at your post.

You knew what type of person you were dealing with before you ever asked the question.

But you asked it anyway.

Which is funny.

Were you just double-checking???:ROFL:
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#47
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
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#47
Grandpa said:
Which is not to say that they NEVER will come to Jesus.

They just haven't made it yet, at this 2nd soil stage.
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But what happened to Hebrews 6:4-6?

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen c away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

In once saved always saved, wouldn't they be crucifying the Son of God all over again if they tried to repent?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#48
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#48
Judges1318 said:
But what happened to Hebrews 6:4-6?

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen c away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

In once saved always saved, wouldn't they be crucifying the Son of God all over again if they tried to repent?
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What, exactly, are you NOT understanding about these people NOT coming to Christ yet???

They HAVEN'T been enlightened. They HAVEN'T tasted the heavenly gift. They HAVEN'T shared in the Holy Spirit and tasted the goodness of God.

They started, momentarily, TOWARDS Christ. But fell away before they made it.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#49
Jul 3, 2015
55,810
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#49
Dave-L said:
Thomas must not have believed by sight. Why? Because faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.” John 2:23–25 (KJV 1900)
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Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#50
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#50
Grandpa said:
What, exactly, are you NOT understanding about these people NOT coming to Christ yet???

They HAVEN'T been enlightened. They HAVEN'T tasted the heavenly gift. They HAVEN'T shared in the Holy Spirit and tasted the goodness of God.

They started, momentarily, TOWARDS Christ. But fell away before they made it.
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Once saved always saved says Hebrew 6:4-6 means they were never really saved to begin with.
That means they don't have a second chance (you said they did).
But if you want to say it's referring to saved people. That means saved people who fall away can't come back to their salvation.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#51
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#51
Magenta said:
Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29
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Did he see him with spiritual eyes? Or through eyes of the wicked flesh?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#52
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#52
Judges1318 said:
Once saved always saved says Hebrew 6:4-6 means they were never really saved to begin with.
But if you want to say it's referring to saved people. That means saved people who fall away can't come back to their salvation.
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Yes. That is what YOU THINK that verse says.

But really what that verse is saying is that it is impossible for a truly saved person who has tasted the Heavenly Gift to fall away.

But if they did then it would be impossible to come back from it.

It is a hypothetical IMPOSSIBILITY.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#53
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#53
Judges1318 said:
Once saved always saved says Hebrew 6:4-6 means they were never really saved to begin with.
But if you want to say it's referring to saved people. That means saved people who fall away can't come back to their salvation.
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Here's how it works. Those enlightened who fell away prospered through the laws of sowing and reaping. Anyone prospers from these by obeying. The gospel provides even more good when obeyed. But after falling away it confirmed they were never saved. So in order for that to happen, God must elect them to salvation. And Christ must return to the cross to redeem them. And this is impossible. Gandhi lived the Sermon on the Mount every day. He fell away not having been converted to Christ.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#54
Jul 3, 2015
55,810
25,988
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#54
Dave-L said:
Did he see him with spiritual eyes? Or through eyes of the wicked flesh?
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"Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where
the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe."

Jesus did NOT shun him as you claimed. He invited closer inspection.

"Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your
hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#55
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
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#55
Dave-L said:
Here's how it works. Those enlightened who fell away prospered through the laws of sowing and reaping anyone prospers from obeying. The gospel provides even more good when obeyed. But after falling away it confirmed they were never saved.
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.. and that they can't have another chance to be saved.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#57
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#57
Magenta said:

"Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where
the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe."

Jesus did NOT shun him as you claimed. He invited closer inspection.

"Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your
hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
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“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:15–17 (KJV 1900)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#58
Jul 3, 2015
55,810
25,988
113
#58
Dave-L said:
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:15–17 (KJV 1900)
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It seems you deny Thomas believed because he saw with his own eyes, even though Jesus said as much.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#59
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#59
Magenta said:
It seems you deny Thomas believed because he saw with his own eyes, even though Jesus said as much.
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I believe God finally opened his spiritual eyes.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#60
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
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#60
Grandpa said:
Yes. That is what YOU THINK that verse says.

But really what that verse is saying is that it is impossible for a truly saved person who has tasted the Heavenly Gift to fall away.

But if they did then it would be impossible to come back from it.

It is a hypothetical IMPOSSIBILITY.
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Where does the verse say 'if they could fall away'?
 
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