Was the person who falls away drawn to Jesus by the Father?

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Jan 17, 2020
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Yes, believing is a condition for justification/ salvation.
I can't believe there are people in the church saying it is not.
And believing the promise of God is hardly equivalent to keeping the law.
It amazes me that we have to have these kinds of discussions now in the church.
Your argument is so absurd it's hardly worth talking about.
It's because of today's legalistic gospel that cannot save. True salvation is in the New Birth. This experience of Christ in your heart causes you to believe before any act of the will can follow.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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And that is exactly what the passage says.
And the reason they can't be brought back to repentance and saved is, not because it's impossible to fall away (the passage says nothing about that), but because "they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" - Hebrews 6:4-6.

You see, God is preventing them from coming back (for the reason stated), not preventing them from falling away. The thing that is impossible is for the fallen person to come back to Christ. The passage plainly says that. But I suppose if one is bent on defending a certain belief it can't read it for what it actually says.
Its like I was predicting the future...:LOL:

Of course, if you were trying really hard to prove that once a person was flying they could stop flying mid-flight then you would ignore this aspect of the impossible situation. You would just say, "see right there, it says you can stop flying mid flight".

There sure are a LOT of passages you MUST ignore in order to insert your (wrong) suppositions into Hebrew 6:4-6


But that's kind of the whole problem with legalists and judaizers. They ignore the promises of God and insert their wrong suppositions in order to support their silliness.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


What you are trying to assert in Hebrews 6 is a direct contradiction of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are trying to make an impossible hypothetical situation into something that not only can happen but DOES. Even though the Lord Jesus has said it cannot happen.


Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Let that one marinate for a bit.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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Yes, believing is a condition for justification/ salvation.
I can't believe there are people in the church saying it is not.
And believing the promise of God is hardly equivalent to keeping the law.
It amazes me that we have to have these kinds of discussions now in the church.
Your argument is so absurd it's hardly worth talking about.
Salvation is a GIFT from God.

ANYTHING that you think is a condition is in actuality a gift.


What is amazing to me is that there are people who are Christians who don't know this.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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True salvation is in the New Birth. This experience of Christ in your heart causes you to believe before any act of the will can follow.
But that experience in your heart is not the new birth. It's simply the voice of truth, the voice of the Holy Spirit testifying about Jesus. This is all explained in 1 John 5:9-11. There it explains how some believe the testimony of the Holy Spirit, while others reject it, in effect calling God a liar.

Revelation has to come before conversion. And as King Saul shows us, all you need is the presence of the Holy Spirit to be able to see the unseen. You do not have to be saved to see the unseen (1 John 5:9-11). He was gifted in prophecy when the Spirit was present, but was a raving mad murderer when the Spirit was not present.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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But that experience in your heart is not the new birth. It's simply the voice of truth, the voice of the Holy Spirit testifying about Jesus. This is all explained in 1 John 5:9-11. There it explains how some believe the testimony of the Holy Spirit, while others reject it, in effect calling God a liar.

Revelation has to come before conversion. And as King Saul shows us, all you need is the presence of the Holy Spirit to be able to see the unseen. You do not have to be saved to see the unseen (1 John 5:9-11). He was gifted in prophecy when the Spirit was present, but was a raving mad murderer when the Spirit was not present.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Salvation is a GIFT from God.

ANYTHING that you think is a condition is in actuality a gift.


What is amazing to me is that there are people who are Christians who don't know this.
Your believing through God's gift of faith is how you access the grace of God in salvation--Romans 5:2, Acts 14:27.

This is no different than you having to come to my house and me opening the door for you in order to receive a free gift I have for you.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)
That's what the testimony of the Holy Spirit is for!
Not in salvation, but in an empowering to be able to see what you can't see with your natural self. 1 John 5:9-11 shows us that empowering is the testimony of the Spirit speaking to a person, not the indwelling Spirit in salvation. And that we can either receive what He says, or we can reject it.

Read 1 John 5:9-11. Nothing there about being born again first in order to be able to receive and believe the testimony of God.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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That's what the testimony of the Holy Spirit is for!
Not in salvation, but in an empowering to be able to see what you can't see with your natural self. 1 John 5:9-11 shows us that empowering is the testimony of the Spirit speaking to a person, not the indwelling Spirit in salvation. And that we can either receive what He says, or we can reject it.

Read 1 John 5:9-11. Nothing there about being born again first in order to be able to receive and believe the testimony of God.
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6 (KJV 1900)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Your believing through God's gift of faith is how you access the grace of God in salvation--Romans 5:2, Acts 14:27.

This is no different than you having to come to my house and me opening the door for you in order to receive a free gift I have for you.
Your believing is a gift.

If it is a condition for salvation, it is a gift.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Of course, if you were trying really hard to prove that once a person was flying they could stop flying mid-flight then you would ignore this aspect of the impossible situation. You would just say, "see right there, it says you can stop flying mid flight".
Of course you can stop flying mid flight. It's called 'falling'.
Your analogy is so absurd I can't even give it much attention beyond that.

There sure are a LOT of passages you MUST ignore in order to insert your (wrong) suppositions into Hebrew 6:4-6
Bring them here.
I'll address every single one of them.

Osas has to make so many passages not really mean what they say, just as it does with this Hebrews 6:4-6 passage. I can't believe so many people can't see that.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Let that one marinate for a bit.
Read the whole chapter where that quote comes from.
Read this and let it marinate for a bit:

"8The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged.” - Deuteronomy 31:
"17And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them" - Deuteronomy 31:17


See, the very quote you use to try to prove that God will never leave or forsake you comes from the very scripture that explains He will leave and forsake you if....

It's not the unconditional promise you think it is. You have to ignore the passage being quoted in order to think that. And many people do that even after showing them what it actually says.

I'm guessing what comes next is an explanation of why Deuteronomy 31 doesn't actually mean what it plainly says.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Your believing is a gift.
No, the faith upon which you do your believing is the gift.
It is through that gift of faith (the ability to know what you can't see is really true) that you then trust in Christ and are justified/ saved.

If it is a condition for salvation, it is a gift.
The condition for salvation is that you retain the free gift of faith, not reject it in willful unbelief. This is explained in 1 John 5:9-11. When the Holy Spirit shows you that the gospel of Jesus is true you have the choice to either reject that revelation of truth in unbelief, or, retain it and trust in it, and be saved.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Read the whole chapter where that quote comes from.
Read this and let it marinate for a bit:

"8The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged.” - Deuteronomy 31:
"17And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them" - Deuteronomy 31:17


See, the very quote you use to try to prove that God will never leave or forsake you comes from the very scripture that explains He will leave and forsake you if....

It's not the unconditional promise you think it is. You have to ignore the passage being quoted in order to think that. And many people do that even after showing them what it actually says.

I'm guessing what comes next is an explanation of why Deuteronomy 31 doesn't actually mean what it plainly says.
Who is speaking in Deuteronomy 31:8??

How is that different from Hebrews 13:5??


You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Have you heard that saying?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Accepting Jesus is trying to keep the 1st commandment.
I think accepting JESUS IS realizing you Can’t keep or relate to GODs PERFECT standard of righteousness In your own strength so then trying to keep the law would mean that If that person sinned a big sin or a small sin they would come short of the glory of GOD not Being accepted because they weren’t perfect and they had to just realize If they were going to be saved they just humbly needed the mercy of GOD.

ENTER JESUS WHOM did keep the law PERFECTLY and HIS sacrifice was accepted by GOD now the Issue for man would be faith ,not trying to keep the law ,not that Trying to keep the law Is a bad thing because After salvation as a result of finding themselves a new creation the person will establish the law.Trying to keep the law before salvation means that person was using their own strength and we know work Is work and a gift Is not worked for.

It’s just that that person would fail to be perfect with their body or their thoughts and would not be accepted.Thank you JESUS.

John 3:14-16
King James Version

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
In the Parable of the Sower, if the 2nd type of soil person was never really saved to begin with were they drawn to Christ on their own, or were they drawn by the Father?

"13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13

44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" - John 6:44
37. All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. (NASB) The Book of John chapter 6
God knows His own. The parable of the Prodigal Son tells us that being God knows His children, if one should fall away God will not cast them out. Because He is the eternal all knowing Father of all creation.

If we accept God draws people to Himself, then I think we owe it to that belief to accept that God knows them in ways no mortal ever shall. If one falls out of the church, does that mean God made a mistake calling that one to Himself? Or does it mean that while God will never cast us out, he is well aware we may stray off the path for whatever reason. And perhaps that is let to happen so that we find our way home, realizing we cannot make it alone. Again, as the Prodigal showed us, and proved to himself.

God knows. Who are we to judge who are His when we here believe we are. God knows.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,229
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www.christiancourier.com
Who is speaking in Deuteronomy 31:8??

How is that different from Hebrews 13:5??


You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Have you heard that saying?
When the horse is thirsty enough standing by the spring, sooner or later they will drink as a matter of survival.
Thirsty horses never refuse sweet water.