Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[FreeGrace2]

If I remember correctly you (Runningman) only hold to the idea that water baptism is not salvational but only for one to participate in the resurrection.

How is this not contradictory? One must be saved to be resurrected. Yet something is required of the saved to be resurrected??

And Rm won't explain what happens to believers who miss out on the requirement of water baptism for resurrection. It should follow that those believers will NEVER receive their glorified bodies. So where will they live in eternity without a glorified body?

 

[Wansvic]

FreeGrace2 said:
That's what your posts sure sound like.

True. Where do you find water baptism for salvation in Genesis?

In the early development of the church, things weren't uniform. On the day of Pentecost, ALL Jewish believers received the Holy Spirit.

It was not uniform for Gentiles though. In Acts 10, Gentiles received the Holy Spirit upon belief in the gospel, BEFORE they were water baptized. However, there were Gentile believers in Acts 19 that Paul had to lay his hands on before they received the Holy Spirit.

But, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, he was very clear about how EVERYONE received the Holy Spirit: through faith.

Gal 3:2,5 says so plainly.

Go ahead and ignore Cornelius and his family/friends. Doesn't matter. By Gal 3:2,5 EVERYONE receives the Holy Spirit by faith.


Who is arguing with this? And that's not the issue, as I believe you actually know.

It is a command for WHAT, exactly? Or, WHY is it commanded? Please answer.


You need to be more clear about what you actually mean.

To be saved, we know that "God is pleased to save those who believe", per 1 Cor 1:21. That's how to be accepted by God. Believe what He commands.

Acts 17:30 - In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

The bible provides the answer. Even so, many still refuse to believe what it states. (Mark 1:2-5, Luke 3:3, Acts 38, 22:16...)

Refusing to believe what God says is necessary causes a person to be damned according to Jesus. Mark 16:15-16

"And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." Mark 1:4
"He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." Luke 3:3
"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
"And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’" Acts 22:16

 

[FreeGrace2]

The bible provides the answer. Even so, many still refuse to believe what it states. (Mark 1:2-5, Luke 3:3, Acts 38, 22:16...)

Refusing to believe what God says is necessary causes a person to be damned according to Jesus. Mark 16:15-16

The ONLY baptism that is required for salvation is baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is what God does to the believer.

The account of Cornelius proves that easily. Acts 10 and 11.

"And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." Mark 1:4
"He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." Luke 3:3
"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
"And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’" Acts 22:16

It was John the baptizer who made clear the difference between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wansvic]

Believing is repenting. You cannot separate them

Notice that those who believed that Jesus was Lord and Messiah asked Peter what they were required to do. It was at that point that Peter gave them instructions that included the need to repent. This scripture alone makes it clear that repentance does not occur at the moment a person believes in Jesus.

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

 

[Runningman]

Believing is repenting. You cannot separate them

Depends what one is believing is exactly. Jesus said the gospel included water baptism more than once in the Great Commission.

 

[Runningman]

So it is resurrection we should focus on. What is required for resurrection?

I opened this thread so the first post outlines my theology.

If you’d like to refute it using scripture then please respond with which verses you disagree with or with which verses you feel are being interpreted incorrectly.

 

[Wansvic]

The ONLY baptism that is required for salvation is baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is what God does to the believer.

The account of Cornelius proves that easily. Acts 10 and 11.


It was John the baptizer who made clear the difference between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Cornelius account proves both water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus as well as receiving the Holy Ghost was required. This coincides with what Peter initially presented to the Jews in Acts 2:31-38.

"Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe."

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Notice verse 48 below. Peter ordered the group to be water baptized in the name of Jesus. Wherein we know sins are forgiven according to Acts 2:38: And be baptized everyone of you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin..."

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Notice that those who believed that Jesus was Lord and Messiah asked Peter what they were required to do. It was at that point that Peter gave them instructions that included the need to repent. This scripture alone makes it clear that repentance does not occur at the moment a person believes in Jesus.

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

A logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ implies genuine repentance, brings the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; with thanks to @mailmandan ). As @Runningman pointed out, it does depend on what we believe/have faith in. However, since this is the BDF and the discussion concerns the gospel and salvation, I assumed that was implicit. Even the demons believe, but they have no faith, nor will they be saved. They have not repented of their rebellion against God, and they do not believe in God's plan. The repentance of which I speak should be understood in the light of repentance being a prerequisite to belief, as they are two sides of the same coin.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: water to be in first resurrection?:

True, IF you are Israel, under the law/priesthood = water baptism for
the remission of sin/Christ Baptizing you "WITH" The Holy Ghost, to
be in the [earthly] prophesied first resurrection...

opposite that, and:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

IF you are, By GRACE Through faith, saved and immersed Into The
ONE Body Of Christ by ONE Baptism "BY" The ONE Holy Spirit, Then
you will "be in The [Heavenly] Mystery resurrection"...

should UNtangle all of the Massive Confusion/contentions/
/disagreements, but Highly Doubtful

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Runningman]

A logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ implies genuine repentance, brings the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; with thanks to @mailmandan ). As @Runningman pointed out, it does depend on what we believe/have faith in. However, since this is the BDF and the discussion concerns the gospel and salvation, I assumed that was implicit. Even the demons believe, but they have no faith, nor will they be saved. They have not repented of their rebellion against God, and they do not believe in God's plan. The repentance of which I speak should be understood in the light of repentance being a prerequisite to belief, as they are two sides of the same coin.

That's why I am saying water baptism is required to be in the first resurrection @Magenta . Salvation of the soul comes through faith in Christ, salvation of the body in the first resurrection comes through obedience to water baptism.

The NT is swamped with references to salvation through water baptism now we need to chose what that means. We can't dismiss water baptism because it's apparently too important, but if it doesn't save the soul it surely saves something else.

I've made a complete case about why the first resurrection requires water baptism throughout these pages. I encourage everyone to take another look at the OP.

 

[Runningman]

IF you are, By GRACE Through faith, saved and immersed Into The
ONE Body Of Christ by ONE Baptism "BY" The ONE Holy Spirit, Then
you will "be in The [Heavenly] Mystery resurrection"...

That is not a Bible verse. You appear to have combined three different verses that don't share similiar contexts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Cornelius account proves both water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus as well as receiving the Holy Ghost was required.

You make it sound as though Cornelius had to do something that was required to receive the Holy Spirit. He received the Spirit when he believed in Christ. And he was saved and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE Peter dunked him.

This coincides with what Peter initially presented to the Jews in Acts 2:31-38.

"Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe."

Not even close.

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The key here is "everyone who believes in Him". That's how they receive forgiveness. The words "through His name" refers to "believes in Him". It has NO relation to water baptism at all.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Right. v.44 shows that they received the Spirit while they heard the message. This proves they were saved before being baptized in water.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's why I am saying water baptism is required to be in the first resurrection @Magenta . Salvation of the soul comes through faith in Christ, salvation of the body in the first resurrection comes through obedience to water baptism.

Well, now you've added a bit more to your theology. Thanks. Where do you get that our bodies are "saved"?

And you need to answer the obvious question here: if a believer never was baptized, that would mean they don't get a glorified body. Please show where that is taught in the Bible.

And what then happens to them since they won't have a glorified body.

The NT is swamped with references to salvation through water baptism

In EVERY verse where baptism is referenced to salvation, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

now we need to chose what that means. We can't dismiss water baptism because it's apparently too important, but if it doesn't save the soul it surely saves something else.

If it did, there would be a verse or more saying what it saves.

I've made a complete case about why the first resurrection requires water baptism throughout these pages. I encourage everyone to take another look at the OP.

Your case is flawed because of your error about 1 Cor 15:29. It's a very vague verse and we have NO context for it at all. Trying to build a doctrine on such non-evidence is dangerous.

And you haven't explained from Scripture what happens to non baptized believers when ALL the rest get glorified bodies.

 

[Duckybill]

How so?

"How so" what?

 

[Runningman]

"How so" what?

You said:

"Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection"
No it isn't!"

How so?

 

[Duckybill]

You said:

"Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection"
No it isn't!"

How so?

So you're saying those who aren't baptized in water aren't Christians?

 

[Runningman]

So you're saying those who aren't baptized in water aren't Christians?

You made a claim now I'm asking you to present burden of proof. How so? Are you willing to explain yourself?

 

[Duckybill]

You made a claim now I'm asking you to present burden of proof. How so? Are you willing to explain yourself?

How EVASIVE! Let me try again.

"So you're saying those who aren't baptized in water aren't Christians?"

 

[Runningman]

How EVASIVE! Let me try again.

"So you're saying those who aren't baptized in water aren't Christians?"

You said:

"Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection"
No it isn't!"

How so?

 

[Duckybill]

You said:

"Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection"
No it isn't!"

How so?

Ok it's perfectly clear you are preaching water baptism for salvation. Were you baptized in Jesus' Name? That's how they obeyed Jesus in Acts. Or were you baptized WRONG?