Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I've said it over and over, and never tire of repeating myself.

Water baptism symbolizes the believers' UNION WITH CHRIST, in His death, burial and resurrection. It is an act of obedience, not faith.

I have NO faith at all that water baptism saves me or anyone else. And 1 Pet 3:21 doesn't say that water baptism saves. Those who think so just aren't reading correctly.

The Christian ritual of water baptism wasn't even done during Jesus' ministry on earth. It was instituted for the church, which began AFTER Jesus' ascension.

No you are the one not reading it correctly.

Go find a lexicon and see for yourself what the Greek word means.

Let me break this down for you too and let’s look at the BSB which makes it clearer in plain English. If you’re reading the KJV I can forgive you if you’ve misunderstood it. We’ll look at both versions for your benefit.

I don't read the KJV.

1 Peter 3:21 BSB
21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge off a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Bingo!! Agrees with me. "this water" refers back to v.20 and the flood waters of Noah's day. So the verse SAYS what I SAY: water baptism symbolizes the baptism that does save us, which is Holy Spirit baptism.

I rest my case.

See this? Water baptism saves because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Wow. Do you need readers to see the words? It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves. Not literal water.

I can only lead you to water. You have to do the drinking. All by yourself.

You’re in a corner again. Plainly tell me, does water baptism save or not after reading 1 Peter 3:21.

Absolutely NOT!!!!!!

I'm reading it according to the BSB, whatever translation that is.

Literal water SYMBOLIZES the baptism (of the Holy Spirit) that does save. Clear enough for grade schoolers.

When you look in a mirror, what do you see? An IMAGE of you. But NOT you. Just an image. An image SYMBOLIZES the reality.

You are the reality. Your image in a mirror is NOT reality, but just an image. If the mirror shatters while you are looking at yourself in that mirror, are you damaged?

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
I've said it over and over, and never tire of repeating myself.

Water baptism symbolizes the believers' UNION WITH CHRIST, in His death, burial and resurrection. It is an act of obedience, not faith.

I have NO faith at all that water baptism saves me or anyone else. And 1 Pet 3:21 doesn't say that water baptism saves. Those who think so just aren't reading correctly.

The Christian ritual of water baptism wasn't even done during Jesus' ministry on earth. It was instituted for the church, which began AFTER Jesus' ascension.

Go find a lexicon and see for yourself what the Greek word means.


I don't read the KJV.


Bingo!! Agrees with me. "this water" refers back to v.20 and the flood waters of Noah's day. So the verse SAYS what I SAY: water baptism symbolizes the baptism that does save us, which is Holy Spirit baptism.

I rest my case.


Wow. Do you need readers to see the words? It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves. Not literal water.

I can only lead you to water. You have to do the drinking. All by yourself.


Absolutely NOT!!!!!!

I'm reading it according to the BSB, whatever translation that is.

Literal water SYMBOLIZES the baptism (of the Holy Spirit) that does save. Clear enough for grade schoolers.

When you look in a mirror, what do you see? An IMAGE of you. But NOT you. Just an image. An image SYMBOLIZES the reality.

You are the reality. Your image in a mirror is NOT reality, but just an image. If the mirror shatters while you are looking at yourself in that mirror, are you damaged?

I believe you’re intelligent enough to understand plain and simple English sentences. Your problem is that you aren’t loyal to the scriptures. They aren’t supposed to be something we cherry-pick what we prefer they say.

1 Peter 3:21 says water baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You’ve rejected that and that isn’t my problem anymore. Quite frankly I don’t like talking to you even though I’ve bared your nasty tone and disrespectful remarks for too long. All I will do at this point is post some scripture and ask God to help you help yourself.

1 Peter 3:21

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Literal Bible
which also prefigures the baptism now saving you, not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the demand of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

New King James Version
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NASB 1995
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience— through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NASB 1977
And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Amplified Bible
Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe you’re intelligent enough to understand plain and simple English sentences.

And you have convinced me that you have great difficultly in understanding plain and simple English sentences/words.

Your problem is that you aren’t loyal to the scriptures.

Just pathetic.

They aren’t supposed to be something we cherry-pick what we prefer they say.

1 Peter 3:21 says water baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The verse you quoted (BSB) used "symbolized" as well. So read your own quotes.

You’ve rejected that and that isn’t my problem anymore.[/QUOTE]
It 's still your problem because I looked at the Greek word and it IS "symbolizes".

Quite frankly I don’t like talking to you even though I’ve bared your nasty tone and disrespectful remarks for too long.

Don't get all transference on me. Anyone who has been following this thread has seen YOUR nasty and rude comments. You've gone personal. I have stayed with what the Bible says.

On a thread where we agreed, you were all nice and friendly. But once there was disagreement, you went off the rails.

All I will do at this point is post some scripture and ask God to help you help yourself.

1 Peter 3:21

New International Version
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

There it is AGAIN. "this water symbolizes baptism that saves".

The words "this water" is a reference back to v.20 and the flood waters, which is literal water.

So v.21 says literal water symbolizes baptism that now saves us. Literal water is a symbol. Period. Boom.

New Living Translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Berean Literal Bible
which also prefigures the baptism now saving you, not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the demand of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

New King James Version
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NASB 1995
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience— through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

NASB 1977
And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Amplified Bible
Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Yeah, I've already been through biblehub.com and have seen all the translations.

You have no evidence for your wrong-headed reading of the verse. And go back to that site and look up the Greek word for "symbolizes".

I gave you an example; you look into a mirror. Is what you see actually you are just an image of you? If you can answer that, you might be able to understand 1 Peter 3:21.

We'll see.

 

[Runningman]

And you have convinced me that you have great difficultly in understanding plain and simple English sentences/words.


Just pathetic.


The verse you quoted (BSB) used "symbolized" as well. So read your own quotes.

You’ve rejected that and that isn’t my problem anymore.

It 's still your problem because I looked at the Greek word and it IS "symbolizes".


Don't get all transference on me. Anyone who has been following this thread has seen YOUR nasty and rude comments. You've gone personal. I have stayed with what the Bible says.

On a thread where we agreed, you were all nice and friendly. But once there was disagreement, you went off the rails.


There it is AGAIN. "this water symbolizes baptism that saves".

The words "this water" is a reference back to v.20 and the flood waters, which is literal water.

So v.21 says literal water symbolizes baptism that now saves us. Literal water is a symbol. Period. Boom.


Yeah, I've already been through biblehub.com and have seen all the translations.

You have no evidence for your wrong-headed reading of the verse. And go back to that site and look up the Greek word for "symbolizes".

I gave you an example; you look into a mirror. Is what you see actually you are just an image of you? If you can answer that, you might be able to understand 1 Peter 3:21.

We'll see.

The water of the great flood symbolizes the water baptism that now saves you. It saved Noah and his family, now it can save you.

The water baptism that now saves you saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What’s unclear about this? It’s not unclear. Read 1 Peter 3 and the many other verses that say water baptism is required to be saved like Mark 16:15-16.

Water baptism is required to be resurrected.

You’ll see.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The water of the great flood symbolizes the water baptism that now saves you.

you just keep proving that you aren't reading the verse even close to what it plainly SAYS.

this water (literal) symbolizes the baptism (Holy Spirit, NOT water).

How can literal water symbolize literal water? Can you answer this with a reasonable answer>

It saved Noah and his family, now it can save you.

OK, if Noah and family were highly dehydrated, and drank the flood water, yeah, it would have hydrated them and saved them.

But guess what: there is NO mention in the record of Noah or family drinking ANY of the flood water.

Have you asked any of the world's population that was NOT in the ark about the saving ability of the flood water??? You should.

To say that literal water saves your soul is beyond bizarre. Literal water kills people.

The water baptism that now saves you saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves your soul. Haven't you read Acts 10 and 11, which proves this?

What’s unclear about this? It’s not unclear.

Exactly! It's totally clear. But you continue to twist the verse into what it doesn't say.

Read 1 Peter 3 and the many other verses that say water baptism is required to be saved like Mark 16:15-16.

1 Peter 3:21 says that the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves. And water baptism SYMBOLIZES that fact.

Water baptism is required to be resurrected.

And now quote that totally obscure verse that seems to be your only evidence for this idea.

You’ll see.

I DO see. I see the truth of Scripture and I see your grave error.

 

[Runningman]

you just keep proving that you aren't reading the verse even close to what it plainly SAYS.

this water (literal) symbolizes the baptism (Holy Spirit, NOT water).

How can literal water symbolize literal water? Can you answer this with a reasonable answer>


OK, if Noah and family were highly dehydrated, and drank the flood water, yeah, it would have hydrated them and saved them.

But guess what: there is NO mention in the record of Noah or family drinking ANY of the flood water.

Have you asked any of the world's population that was NOT in the ark about the saving ability of the flood water??? You should.

To say that literal water saves your soul is beyond bizarre. Literal water kills people.


It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves your soul. Haven't you read Acts 10 and 11, which proves this?


Exactly! It's totally clear. But you continue to twist the verse into what it doesn't say.


1 Peter 3:21 says that the baptism of the Holy Spirit saves. And water baptism SYMBOLIZES that fact.


And now quote that totally obscure verse that seems to be your only evidence for this idea.


I DO see. I see the truth of Scripture and I see your grave error.

How about you settle this once and for all with a scripture that directly states how to be resurrected. I don’t need your opinions, your hot air, or your nonsense. Just scripture.

No one has provided an authoritative reason why Romans 6:3-5 is not about baptism for a resurrection, or how water baptism does not save by the resurrection of Jesus Christ per 1 Peter 3:21. Your commentary holds no authority, to be clear what I mean by authoritative.

Don’t quote a verse that says Jesus is coming back for those who belong to Him or an unclear reference about how Jesus will raise them up at the last day.

Quote me literally anything from the Bible that teaches “you don’t need water baptism to be resurrected, just faith” and I’ll be happy. If you fail you’re forever labeled a false prophet in my books and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How about you settle this once and for all with a scripture that directly states how to be resurrected.

I don't need a verse that meets your "demand". I have clear Scripture that says in plain words who will be resurrected. And NONE say anything about having been water baptized. That doesn't meet your "demand" but, so what.

Acts 24:15 -
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

We see several things in this verse.
1. First, we see there is ONE resurrection for the righteous (saved) and ONE resurrection for the wicked (unsaved).
2. So, being saved is what matters to be in the resurrection of the saved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse refers to the resurrection of the saved. We see clearly that EVERY believer will be resurrected, in the words "those who belong to Him".

Now, if you have a verse that "directly states how to belong to Him", you might have something if it includes water baptism. But you don't.

I could quote the many verses on resurrection and NONE include a requirement for water baptism.

I don’t need your opinions, your hot air, or your nonsense. Just scripture.

That's all I've ever given you. But you irrationally refuse to accept the verses that clearly refute you.

No one has provided an authoritative reason why Romans 6:3-5 is not about baptism for a resurrection

6:3-5
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Where you've gone off the rails is your failure to understand and accept what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is.

v.3 is about just that; Holy Spirit baptism. The words "baptized INTO Christ" do NOT refer to water at all, but you irrationally reject any use of 'baptism' that doesn't include water.

Eph 1:13 is the AUTHORATIVE verse on how to be placed INTO Christ.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

There are 2 sentences in v.13. The second sentence explains the first. The blue words in both sentences are the HOW to be "IN Christ". The red words refer to being IN Christ. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and there is NO mention of water here.

And we see what the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the account of Cornelius.

Acts 10-
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

v.43 does NOT mention water baptism. It speaks directly of believing in Him and through His name for forgiveness.

Acts 11-
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

v.13 explains what Cornelius told Peter about the visiting angel in ch 10.
v.14 clearly shows that Cornelius would be SAVED through the message that Peter would bring. Of course, Cornelius HAD TO believe the message.
v.15 shows that Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit as they believed what Peter was saying.
v.16 shows the proof that the reception of the Holy Spirit is called "baptism of the Holy Spirit".

Also note back in ch 10 that Cornelius was water baptized ONLY AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit, and ch 11 clarifies the FACT that the baptism of the Spirit is when the believer receives the Spirit.

So you need to adjust your thinking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It has NOTHING to do with water baptism.

, or how water baptism does not save by the resurrection of Jesus Christ per 1 Peter 3:21.

Because that verse DOESN'T SAY THAT WATER BAPTISM SAVES. Why do you persist in such poor reading??? It says that "this water", which refers to literal water, per the flood of v.20, SYMBOLIZES the baptism (Holy Spirit) that DOES SAVE US.

And the account of Cornelius proves that their reception of the Spirit IS the baptism of the Spirit.

This is the AUTHORATIVE answer to your questions.

Your commentary holds no authority, to be clear what I mean by authoritative.

Now you have NO EXCUSE for your rejection of the truth. I've given you very clear verses that prove what the baptism of the Spirit is and how one receives the Spirit.

Don’t quote a verse that says Jesus is coming back for those who belong to Him or an unclear reference about how Jesus will raise them up at the last day.

You certainly are free to reject any truth you don't like, but I never recommend that. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us WH0 will be resurrected at the resurrection of the saved: "those who belong to Him".

Now, if you are still unsure what that phrase means, you are beyond help.

Quote me literally anything from the Bible that teaches “you don’t need water baptism to be resurrected, just faith” and I’ll be happy.

No you won't. I've given you plenty of clear verses that prove your opinion to be unbiblical. I am now convinced that you are not interested in truth, but only your own opinion.

If you fail you’re forever labeled a false prophet in my books and may God have mercy on your soul.

You need to quit rejecting the truth of Scripture.

If any of the verses I've just quoted don't support my belief, then please provide a rational explanation of why they don't.

"If you fail you're forever labeled a FALSE PROPHET".

ball.in.your.court.

 

[Runningman]

I don't need a verse that meets your "demand". I have clear Scripture that says in plain words who will be resurrected. And NONE say anything about having been water baptized. That doesn't meet your "demand" but, so what.

Acts 24:15 -
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

We see several things in this verse.
1. First, we see there is ONE resurrection for the righteous (saved) and ONE resurrection for the wicked (unsaved).
2. So, being saved is what matters to be in the resurrection of the saved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse refers to the resurrection of the saved. We see clearly that EVERY believer will be resurrected, in the words "those who belong to Him".

Now, if you have a verse that "directly states how to belong to Him", you might have something if it includes water baptism. But you don't.

I could quote the many verses on resurrection and NONE include a requirement for water baptism.


That's all I've ever given you. But you irrationally refuse to accept the verses that clearly refute you.


6:3-5
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Where you've gone off the rails is your failure to understand and accept what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is.

v.3 is about just that; Holy Spirit baptism. The words "baptized INTO Christ" do NOT refer to water at all, but you irrationally reject any use of 'baptism' that doesn't include water.

Eph 1:13 is the AUTHORATIVE verse on how to be placed INTO Christ.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

There are 2 sentences in v.13. The second sentence explains the first. The blue words in both sentences are the HOW to be "IN Christ". The red words refer to being IN Christ. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and there is NO mention of water here.

And we see what the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the account of Cornelius.

Acts 10-
43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.

v.43 does NOT mention water baptism. It speaks directly of believing in Him and through His name for forgiveness.

Acts 11-
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

v.13 explains what Cornelius told Peter about the visiting angel in ch 10.
v.14 clearly shows that Cornelius would be SAVED through the message that Peter would bring. Of course, Cornelius HAD TO believe the message.
v.15 shows that Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit as they believed what Peter was saying.
v.16 shows the proof that the reception of the Holy Spirit is called "baptism of the Holy Spirit".

Also note back in ch 10 that Cornelius was water baptized ONLY AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit, and ch 11 clarifies the FACT that the baptism of the Spirit is when the believer receives the Spirit.

So you need to adjust your thinking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It has NOTHING to do with water baptism.


Because that verse DOESN'T SAY THAT WATER BAPTISM SAVES. Why do you persist in such poor reading??? It says that "this water", which refers to literal water, per the flood of v.20, SYMBOLIZES the baptism (Holy Spirit) that DOES SAVE US.

And the account of Cornelius proves that their reception of the Spirit IS the baptism of the Spirit.

This is the AUTHORATIVE answer to your questions.


Now you have NO EXCUSE for your rejection of the truth. I've given you very clear verses that prove what the baptism of the Spirit is and how one receives the Spirit.


You certainly are free to reject any truth you don't like, but I never recommend that. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us WH0 will be resurrected at the resurrection of the saved: "those who belong to Him".

Now, if you are still unsure what that phrase means, you are beyond help.


No you won't. I've given you plenty of clear verses that prove your opinion to be unbiblical. I am now convinced that you are not interested in truth, but only your own opinion.


You need to quit rejecting the truth of Scripture.

If any of the verses I've just quoted don't support my belief, then please provide a rational explanation of why they don't.

"If you fail you're forever labeled a FALSE PROPHET".

ball.in.your.court.

I said I didn’t need your commentary or nonsense yet you gave it anyway.

You had your chance to provide scriptural evidence that directly refutes my OP, but you can’t which explains all the hot air and deflection coming from your direction. It’s just damage control to try to keep your errors form being exposed. You hope if you make a lot of noise and contradict everything I say that you’ll keep people unaware of the truth of the scriptures.

If there was just one verse to the contrary of my OP you would have paraded it around the thread to refute me and I would have quickly corrected my mistake because I’m an honest Christian.

You did no such thing because the argument you’re supporting is false and you’ve been deceived by your church. Now you’re going out and deceiving others here, possibly with good intentions, but destructive nonetheless.

The resurrection comes through water baptism and the Bible proves it.

I can’t take glory for winning this debate, I just bare witness of the scriptures. Glory to God.

Romans 6:3-5
3Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

1 Peter 3:20,21
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. 21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge off a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Question 1:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? KJV
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? NIV
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? ESV

Answer 1:
We can reverse engineer Paul's line of thinking here by questioning why they are getting immersed if there is no resurrection of the dead. There is a resurrection of the dead and in order to take part in the resurrection you must be water baptized. That's basically what Paul is suggesting here and I will provide numerous scriptures that support it later in this post.

Question 2:
why are they then baptized for the dead? KJV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? NIV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? ESV

Answer 2:
This question is similar to the first question and so is the answer. The answer is that people are attempting to help deceased people by performing a water baptism for them so that they can be resurrected. There is no evidence from scripture that a substitutionary posthumous water baptism is effective to qualify a dead person for a resurrection, but there is evidence that a water baptism can provide a living person a resurrection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said I didn’t need your commentary or nonsense yet you gave it anyway.S\

I've given you more Scripture than you. And the verses I've shared SAY what I believe, unlike the ones you share.

You had your chance to provide scriptural evidence that directly refutes my OP, but you can’t which explains all the hot air and deflection coming from your direction.

Clear case of total denial.

It’s just damage control to try to keep your errors form being exposed.

you have certainly exposed your errors.

You hope if you make a lot of noise and contradict everything I say that you’ll keep people unaware of the truth of the scriptures.

I've been letting Scripture contradict your ideas.

If there was just one verse to the contrary of my OP you would have paraded it around the thread to refute me and I would have quickly corrected my mistake because I’m an honest Christian.

You are NOT. You are full of ad hominem. Your approach is nasty to those who disagree with you.

You did no such thing because the argument you’re supporting is false

Just another errant OPINION of yours.

and you’ve been deceived by your church.

Shows how little you really know. I use the Berean study method, which has served me very well over the years. Acts 17:11

[Now you’re going out and deceiving others here, possibly with good intentions, but destructive nonetheless.[/QUOTE]
More errant opinions.

The resurrection comes through water baptism and the Bible proves it.

Another errant opinion.

btw, how come you won't answer my question about what happens to those who have believed but weren't water baptized. What does
God do with them? And provide verses that SAY what you believe.

I can’t take glory for winning this debate, I just bare witness of the scriptures.

You haven't won anything.

Romans 6:3-5
3Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

I explained this. The bolded words in v.3, "baptized INTO Christ" refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I gave you prove of this in the account of Cornelius. Didn't you read it? You didn't even address the verses in ch 10 or 11.

And I've asked several times. But you have NEVER answered. Why is that?

1 Peter 3:20,21
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. 21And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge off a clear conscience toward God—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

If you are so dull as to think Noah was saved BY water, which you have recently posted, there is no hope for helping you.

To be "saved THROUGH water" means to be saved FROM the water. Saved from drowning IN the water. Can you comprehend this? I'm not sure that you can.

And apparently you have no idea what a symbol is. In v.21 it is "this water" which is literal water that is the symbol. Literal water symbolizes the baptism that saves. And I proved from Cornelius' account that he was saved and received the Holy Spirit when he believed. And Peter described that as "the baptism of the Holy Spirit".

So you just ignore all this and then turn around and claim I haven't proven anything. And THEN you have the gall to describe yourself as an "honest Christian".

Question 1:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? KJV
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? NIV
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? ESV

Answer 1:
We can reverse engineer Paul's line of thinking here by questioning why they are getting immersed if there is no resurrection of the dead.

So you have flip flopped and now believe that proxy baptism is legit?????? Are you kidding???

The whole point of the verse is about people who are getting baptized for DEAD people. So you think that is legit???? That is nuts.

There is a resurrection of the dead and in order to take part in the resurrection you must be water baptized.

By proxy baptism, no less. Get real, man.

That's basically what Paul is suggesting here

No, he's not, and NO commentator has any idea what Paul was referring to.

and I will provide numerous scriptures that support it later in this post.

No you won't.

Question 2:
why are they then baptized for the dead? KJV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? NIV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? ESV

Answer 2:
This question is similar to the first question and so is the answer. The answer is that people are attempting to help deceased people by performing a water baptism for them so that they can be resurrected. There is no evidence from scripture that a substitutionary posthumous water baptism is effective to qualify a dead person for a resurrection, but there is evidence that a water baptism can provide a living person a resurrection.

It's all bogus, Rm. Proxy baptism only gets a person wet, and it has NO EFFECT on the dead person the wet one got wet for.

You said you would provide "numerous Scripturesthat support" your view "later in this post".

So, where are they? You're still hung up on 1 Cor 15:29, a verse that no commentator knows what Paul was even referring to.

But you have risen up, smarter than everyone else, claiming something that Paul NEVER said or suggested.

Paul was referring to the practice of proxy baptism for dead people. That's all.

Let go of it. No commentator knows what that meant. Neither do you.

 

[Runningman]

Romans 6:4,5
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We don't literally die in any baptisms so we are not literally resurrected in any baptisms...yet. Water baptism is "the likeness of His death" due to the fact it's like being buried and rising up out of the water is like rising from the dead. Water baptism is symbolic, but verse 5 insists that something literal will happen:

Rom. 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

Plainly, if you have been water baptized you will have a real resurrection. This is confirmed elsewhere in scripture.

1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In English, parentheses ( ) are used to enclose nonessential or supplemental information in a sentence.

If we exclude the material in parenthesis from 1 Peter 3:21, it says "even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Which means that since Jesus Christ was resurrected we will be saved by water baptism with a similar resurrection. That's clear.

Colossians 2:12
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The rising of Jesus Christ of Nazareth was a literal bodily resurrection from a tomb. We are not given a symbolic resurrection, but a literal resurrection just like Jesus Christ of Nazareth received. Therefore the act of being buried with Him in the likeness of baptism is about a literal resurrection.

The Bible consistently teaches water baptism is required for resurrection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 6:4,5
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

These verses show what water baptism does: it demonstrates our union with Christ.

We don't literally die in any baptisms so we are not literally resurrected in any baptisms...yet.

Water baptism symbolizes the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which puts the believer in union with him. 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 1:13

Water baptism is "the likeness of His death" due to the fact it's like being buried and rising up out of the water is like rising from the dead.

Then let's just call it what it is; a symbol of our union with Him via baptism of the Holy Spirit, which does not involve any water.

Water baptism is symbolic, but verse 5 insists that something literal will happen:

Rom. 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

This has nothing to do with water baptism.

Plainly, if you have been water baptized you will have a real resurrection. This is confirmed elsewhere in scripture.

Totally false.

1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The "like figure" can be translated as "symbolizes". A symbol isn't the real thing.

Colossians 2:12
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

This is about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, where the believer is placed IN Him. The power that raised Christ from the dead is the same power that places the believer in union with Christ.

The Bible consistently teaches water baptism is required for resurrection.

False claim.

 

[Runningman]

These verses show what water baptism does: it demonstrates our union with Christ.


Water baptism symbolizes the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which puts the believer in union with him. 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 1:13


Then let's just call it what it is; a symbol of our union with Him via baptism of the Holy Spirit, which does not involve any water.


This has nothing to do with water baptism.


Totally false.


The "like figure" can be translated as "symbolizes". A symbol isn't the real thing.


This is about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, where the believer is placed IN Him. The power that raised Christ from the dead is the same power that places the believer in union with Christ.


False claim.

These verses show what water baptism does: it demonstrates our union with Christ.


Water baptism symbolizes the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which puts the believer in union with him. 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 1:13


Then let's just call it what it is; a symbol of our union with Him via baptism of the Holy Spirit, which does not involve any water.


This has nothing to do with water baptism.


Totally false.


The "like figure" can be translated as "symbolizes". A symbol isn't the real thing.


This is about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, where the believer is placed IN Him. The power that raised Christ from the dead is the same power that places the believer in union with Christ.


False claim.

you’re just muddying the waters by adding things to this thread that aren’t stated in the Bible. You seem to have a major problem with the scripture saying that water baptism is for a resurrection. The Bible is quite clear about this and it won’t be changing in this lifetime as far as I can tell. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

you’re just muddying the waters by adding things to this thread that aren’t stated in the Bible.

Then you haven't been reading the verses I have been sharing. Do you understand what "union with Christ" means?

Eph 1:13 is the basis for the believer being in union with Christ, or being "IN HIM". Same thing.

You seem to have a major problem with the scripture saying that water baptism is for a resurrection.

You are the one with the major problem saying that water baptism is required for a resurrection.

And you STILL have not answered my question about those believers who were never baptized. What happens to them "when He comes" and glorifies "those who belong to Him"?? If you don't actually know, you are free to admit it.

But ignoring my question leaves wide open the probability that you haven't thought out your doctrine far enough.

The Bible is quite clear about this and it won’t be changing in this lifetime as far as I can tell. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

I know what the Bible says about the resurrection. And 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough. "Those who belong to Him" will be glorified at the resurrection of all believers.

There is NOTHING about a requirement for water baptism.

That is about as much a heresy as the believers in the "circumcision party" who demanded that circumcision was required for salvation.

Acts 15-
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

This is parallel to your claims. Just different requirements and different goals.

Pharisee party: circumcision for salvation

Rm party: water baptism for resurrection.

All of this is a heresy.

 

[Runningman]

Then you haven't been reading the verses I have been sharing. Do you understand what "union with Christ" means?

Eph 1:13 is the basis for the believer being in union with Christ, or being "IN HIM". Same thing.


You are the one with the major problem saying that water baptism is required for a resurrection.

And you STILL have not answered my question about those believers who were never baptized. What happens to them "when He comes" and glorifies "those who belong to Him"?? If you don't actually know, you are free to admit it.

But ignoring my question leaves wide open the probability that you haven't thought out your doctrine far enough.


I know what the Bible says about the resurrection. And 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough. "Those who belong to Him" will be glorified at the resurrection of all believers.

There is NOTHING about a requirement for water baptism.

That is about as much a heresy as the believers in the "circumcision party" who demanded that circumcision was required for salvation.

Acts 15-
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

This is parallel to your claims. Just different requirements and different goals.

Pharisee party: circumcision for salvation

Rm party: water baptism for resurrection.

All of this is a heresy.

No you actually have no idea what most of the Bible says apparently. I have read your comments and they’re mostly wrong. You seem to know how to quote scripture but you don’t understand most of it. It’s not that I’ve left you without any help, I’ve tried for a while now.

Let’s try this again and get a clear answer from the FreeGrace party.

How do I get resurrected? Show me the verse please. I’m sure you have a verse that says resurrection comes by faith right? Then quit your rambling and arguing and show me scripture.

Don’t add your commentary and mental gymnastics. Just show me scripture like I’ve done for you about water baptism and resurrection. If you can’t even do this simple thing then what are you even doing here discussing this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then you haven't been reading the verses I have been sharing. Do you understand what "union with Christ" means?

Eph 1:13 is the basis for the believer being in union with Christ, or being "IN HIM". Same thing.

No you actually have no idea what most of the Bible says apparently.

Well, there you go again. Ignoring Eph 1:13, which is the verse on what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. And for.

I have read your comments and they’re mostly wrong.

Thank you for your opinion.

You seem to know how to quote scripture but you don’t uderstand most of it. It’s not that I’ve left you without any help, I’ve tried for a while now.

Then why haven't you even attempted to address the verses I quote and prove that my comments are wrong??????????

Let’s try this again and get a clear answer from the FreeGrace party.

How do I get resurrected? Show me the verse please. I’m sure you have a verse that says resurrection comes by faith right? Then quit your rambling and arguing and show me scripture.

I dealt with this silliness in a previous post. Every believer will be resurrected period. No believer "needs to know" how to be resurrected.

Such reckless language will lead a new believer to think they need to know something or do something in order to be resurrected.

Pure hogwash.

Don’t add your commentary and mental gymnastics. Just show me scripture like I’ve done for you about water baptism and resurrection

What you've shown hasn't proven your claims. Instead, you have proven that your reading and comprehending skills need a lot of work.

If you can’t even do this simple thing then what are you even doing here discussing this?

Again, no one needs to show a verse on how to be resurrected. That is really just nonsense.

Every believer will be resurrected, but it seems you don't believe that.

And you haven't, because you can't, show any verse that clearly and plainly says that water baptism is required in order to be resurrected.

When Jesus discussed resurrection with Martha in John 11, was water baptism mentioned anywhere? No. Of course not.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then you haven't been reading the verses I have been sharing. Do you understand what "union with Christ" means?

Eph 1:13 is the basis for the believer being in union with Christ, or being "IN HIM". Same thing.

Well, there you go again. Ignoring Eph 1:13, which is the verse on what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. And for.


Thank you for your opinion.


Then why haven't you even attempted to address the verses I quote and prove that my comments are wrong??????????


I dealt with this silliness in a previous post. Every believer will be resurrected period. No believer "needs to know" how to be resurrected.

Such reckless language will lead a new believer to think they need to know something or do something in order to be resurrected.

Pure hogwash.


What you've shown hasn't proven your claims. Instead, you have proven that your reading and comprehending skills need a lot of work.


Again, no one needs to show a verse on how to be resurrected. That is really just nonsense.

Every believer will be resurrected, but it seems you don't believe that.

And you haven't, because you can't, show any verse that clearly and plainly says that water baptism is required in order to be resurrected.

When Jesus discussed resurrection with Martha in John 11, was water baptism mentioned anywhere? No. Of course not.

That’s what I thought. You just refuse to quote scripture because you don’t have any. You talk a lot but say a whole lot of nothing. You’re a contrarian and just seem to bounce around my threads to say anything to contradict me.

Anyway, since you have clearly shown you can’t or won’t quote scripture to show how to be resurrected then why do you keep talking? I’m a sola scriptura Berean type. You’ll never convince me of anything beyond the written word which you don’t have.

I have the written word though and Romans 6:4,5 and 1 Peter 3:21 says water baptism is required to be resurrected, a point you are wholly incapable and powerless to prove wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then you haven't been reading the verses I have been sharing. Do you understand what "union with Christ" means?

Eph 1:13 is the basis for the believer being in union with Christ, or being "IN HIM". Same thing.

Well, there you go again. Ignoring Eph 1:13, which is the verse on what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. And for.

Then I noted John 11.

That’s what I thought. You just refuse to quote scripture because you don’t have any.

Are you totally un-self aware??? I cited a verse and a chapter, all of which were very relevant to the debate.

And yet you have the gall to claim that I "refuse to quote Scripture because I don't have any".

Well, you sure are showing the thread your level of understanding.

You talk a lot but say a whole lot of nothing.

Thank you for your opinion.

You’re a contrarian and just seem to bounce around my threads to say anything to contradict me.

lol. I AM contrary to your heresy. And truth ALWAYS contradicts heresy. Every time.

Anyway, since you have clearly shown you can’t or won’t quote scripture to show how to be resurrected then why do you keep talking?

Your request is bogus. Every believer will be resurrected "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says. Given your hilarious fake news, I'll quote the context so everyone will be able to see your emptiness of truth.

21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

v.21 shows the subject: resurrection.
v.22 shows that all humans (in Adam) will die physically, and that all believers (in Christ) will be resurrected.
v.23 shows that Christ was first to receive a glorified body (Acts 26:23) and "when He comes" at the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him" (all believers) will be resurrected.

Clear as crystal.

I’m a sola scriptura Berean type.

No you're not.

You’ll never convince me of anything beyond the written word which you don’t have.

Then you have just admitted that all the verses I've shared, quoted, and cited you flatly reject as Scripture.

I have the written word though and Romans 6:4,5 and 1 Peter 3:21 says water baptism is required to be resurrected, a point you are wholly incapable and powerless to prove wrong.

Wrong. None of those verses say that you claim they say.

And 1 Pet 3:21 PLAINLY says that literal water SYMBOLIZES the (Holy Spirit) baptism that does now save us.

A symbol isn't real. It's a symbol after all.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then you haven't been reading the verses I have been sharing. Do you understand what "union with Christ" means?

Eph 1:13 is the basis for the believer being in union with Christ, or being "IN HIM". Same thing.

Well, there you go again. Ignoring Eph 1:13, which is the verse on what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. And for.

Then I noted John 11.

Are you totally un-self aware??? I cited a verse and a chapter, all of which were very relevant to the debate.

And yet you have the gall to claim that I "refuse to quote Scripture because I don't have any".

Well, you sure are showing the thread your level of understanding.


Thank you for your opinion.


lol. I AM contrary to your heresy. And truth ALWAYS contradicts heresy. Every time.


Your request is bogus. Every believer will be resurrected "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says. Given your hilarious fake news, I'll quote the context so everyone will be able to see your emptiness of truth.

21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

v.21 shows the subject: resurrection.
v.22 shows that all humans (in Adam) will die physically, and that all believers (in Christ) will be resurrected.
v.23 shows that Christ was first to receive a glorified body (Acts 26:23) and "when He comes" at the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him" (all believers) will be resurrected.

Clear as crystal.


No you're not.


Then you have just admitted that all the verses I've shared, quoted, and cited you flatly reject as Scripture.


Wrong. None of those verses say that you claim they say.

And 1 Pet 3:21 PLAINLY says that literal water SYMBOLIZES the (Holy Spirit) baptism that does now save us.

A symbol isn't real. It's a symbol after all.

I didn't see any scripture that proves that water baptism is not necessary for the resurrection or any scripture that says the resurrection is a result of something else other than water baptism. You failed your mission to muddy the waters in this thread. I sense it boils your blood that the truth about water baptism and resurrection is getting out. The more you argue the more it motivates me to spread this message far and wide. Know why? Because I know in my faith that I don't get flak from the enemy until I'm over the target. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't see any scripture that proves that water baptism is not necessary for the resurrection or any scripture that says the resurrection is a result of something else other than water baptism.

Since the Bible doesn't teach that water baptism is necessary, it isn't necessary to prove a negative.

You failed your mission to muddy the waters in this thread.

I wasn't trying to. I did prove that your claims are unbiblical though.

I sense it boils your blood that the truth about water baptism and resurrection is getting out.

If your claims were true, then 1 Cor 15:23 would have added water baptism.

It would have said "when He comes, those who belong to Him AND HAVE BEEN WATER BAPTIZED."

That would be how to prove a claim. With a verse that actually says so. Which you haven't done.

The more you argue the more it motivates me to spread this message far and wide. Know why? Because I know in my faith that I don't get flak from the enemy until I'm over the target. Thanks for the confirmation.

Again, thanks for your opinion.

 

[Runningman]

Since the Bible doesn't teach that water baptism is necessary, it isn't necessary to prove a negative.


I wasn't trying to. I did prove that your claims are unbiblical though.


If your claims were true, then 1 Cor 15:23 would have added water baptism.

It would have said "when He comes, those who belong to Him AND HAVE BEEN WATER BAPTIZED."

That would be how to prove a claim. With a verse that actually says so. Which you haven't done.


Again, thanks for your opinion.

I disagree with every thing you said in this thread and it isn’t useful or valuable to me. Let’s just agree to disagree. It’s better to just open a thread about what you want to say than to just argue relentlessly in other threads or at least pick your battles more wisely.

For example, at the beginning of this thread I really had no idea who you were, but now that you’ve spent a lot of time attacking me I don’t respect you even a little bit. Actually I think you’re my enemy at this point.

It’s better to not create these sorts of divisions and learn to talk to people respectfully when you disagree with them. If you can do that you won’t provoke defensive reactions and people will be much more likely to try to agree with your points. Just words of wisdom for you.