Welcome to the Obstinate Outline Outliers Club -- What Things Do YOU Do Differently from What You Were Taught? And What About Your Children?

[seoulsearch]

Hey Everyone!

In another thread, some of us who write talked about how we "do things backwards." For example, when writing a paper for school, instead of forming an outline as a guide (which is what I was taught,) I write the whole paper first, then go back and make the required) outline based on what was already written.

Henceforth, the Obstinate Outline Outliers Club!

I have several other things I've always had to "do differently" as well:

* Teachers taught us to write with the pen/pencil resting on the 3rd finger -- but this wasn't comfortable to me. I have to rest the writing instrument on my 4th finger -- and have a substantial callous there to prove it.

I had a Lutheran school teacher who was obsessed with "correct" penmanship -- he would monitor all of us to make sure we had the "right" posture, distance, spacing, tilt of the letters -- and that we were holding our pens "correctly." If not, he would (gently) swat our hand with a ruler.

I remember "staging everything just right" (holding my pen in the dreaded 3-finger position) when he would walk by, then would immediately change to my method once he was fixated on the next victim.

* I always have to cut/peel fruits and vegetables with the blade moving AWAY from me. I can't take a paring knife and cut with the blade moving towards my thumb, as most people do, because I will somehow always mess up the amount of force/pressure and wind up cutting myself.

For anything I cut or peel, I have to lay it down on a cutting board and cut towards the board -- even if I'm using something like a potato peeler, where the blade is enclosed within a loop.

* In a particular store I worked at, the people in seniority wanted me to stock things a certain way, taking all the products out of the totes they came in and onto a cart before wheeling them to their destination. I found it was a lot easier to just pile the totes on the cart to take them out (no wasting time taking them out and putting them on the cart, and then putting them away on the shelves -- handling everything twice.)

I could get so much more done this way because I could stack a whole lot more products on a cart while they were still in totes (fewer trips back and forth,) then put them up twice as fast because I just took things out of the totes and immediately put them on the shelf (handling them only once instead of twice.)

For some reason, the older woman I worked with didn't like how I was doing things (even though it was faster and certainly wasn't breaking any safety regulations,) always hollering at me to do things her way.

I solved this problem by aggressively campaigning to work the night shift instead, where I could work my own system and get a lot more done.

I don't always actively mean to rebel, it's just that if I find a more comfortable, efficient (to me) way of doing things (that isn't a sin or breaking any safety rules,) that's what I'm going to stick to.

How about you?

* What things were you taught to do a certain way, but you choose to do them differently (and for what reasons?)

I'd also be interested in hearing from those who found they were left-handed -- were you punished for this? I've known some people who were punished/had their hands hit by teachers for using their left hand while growing up.

* What lengths have you had to go to in order to do things "your own" way? Have you since found out that your need to do things a certain way is due to something like ADHD, OCD, being on the spectrum, etc.? (If you feel comfortable sharing that information.) Have you sought help, and was it useful?

* Were/are there times you have to pretend to do things the way everyone else is doing them, and why?

* If you have kids/grandkids, what do you teach them about "going their own way"? Do you have a child/grandchild who does things differently than what teachers want? Have you had to meet with their teacher to come up with a resolution, or move them to a different school?


I'm especially interested in this topic because of all the neurodivergence society is now encountering, which isn't something anyone talked about when I was growing up.

I've often wondered if I "qualify" for this, that, or the other (diagnosis,) but I know the solution is often medication, and I figure, I've made it this long without it -- so I don't feel that would be the right choice for myself.

But I most definitely support individual treatment plans tailored to everyone's unique needs.

In a time when people seem more diverse in how they do things than ever, I'm curious to learn more about what that looks like for other people, and what you teach young family members about it.

Thanks for taking the time to read and share!

 

[seoulsearch]

One of the reasons this topic interests me is because when I was growing up, if kids or an adult did something differently than most, they were written off as being "weird."

Nowadays, we know that so many more things could be going on, and if there's a health issue at hand, early intervention can make a real difference.

I often wonder what the true differences are between "normal," "quirky" (but entirely functional,) and having something that could be alleviated through some kind of counseling/treatment.

For instance, how to parents start to realize the difference between doing things differently -- and needing professional help?

Most especially if then went through a similar process when they were growing up, but had to figure things out by themselves?

 

[passion84god]

For example, when writing a paper for school, instead of forming an outline as a guide (which is what I was taught,) I write the whole paper first, then go back and make the required) outline based on what was already written.

That's exactly what I do!!! I haven't read the rest of your post yet.

 

[seoulsearch]

That's exactly what I do!!! I haven't read the rest of your post yet.

Seeing as I've met a few others who write their outlines AFTER writing out their full piece (including my favorite author, Dean Koontz,) and ONLY if it's somehow required...

I'm now starting to wonder if the idea of outlines in general is just some stupid extra step the educational/literary world came up to try to somehow sound more prestigious.

 

[passion84god]

Seeing as I've met a few others who write their outlines AFTER writing out their full piece (including my favorite author, Dean Koontz,) and ONLY if it's somehow required...

I'm now starting to wonder if the idea of outlines in general is just some stupid extra step the educational/literary world came up to try to somehow sound more prestigious.

I don't know. Personally, I just gather all my thoughts together, try to put them in some sort of chronologically order that makes sense, and then I formulate an outline to match it when I am done. If I do an outline first, then nothing ever comes out right.​

 

[seoulsearch]

I don't know. Personally, I just gather all my thoughts together, try to put them in some sort of chronologically order that makes sense, and then I formulate an outline to match it when I am done. If I do an outline first, then nothing ever comes out right.​

Exactly.

When I write something, I'll have a few key words or phrases in mind, but it all has to come out "organically", like a musician who "plays by ear."

I often have all kinds of facts I want to include in the introduction to a thread, but wind up throwing most of them out or rearranging the order because they "don't go with" or "ruin the flow" of how the piece is forming itself.

I don't like outlines because they're a lot like life -- they're meant to be a road map of how things "should" go -- but in reality, life, and for me, writing, NEVER turns out the way you might plan it.

 

[Mem]

If I recall correctly, Writing was a subcategory within the lessons of Language Arts as opposed to Language Science. Science was not as interesting to me because it is so 'set' that, I reasoned that if I didn't learn it now, it would still be there to learn later, yet, it isn't as set as maths, so you can't quite count on it so maybe it's just as well that you learn it later anyway after it gets 'updated.' So, if I mastered Arts and Maths together, I'd get the gist of science. Anyway, the requirement of outlines seemed like the powers that be were trying to bend language arts toward science, but I do get why the practical use of them. That is, so the reader could see what they were getting themselves into and thus, alleviate the stress of stepping into the 'unknown,' I suppose, which would otherwise be so very scary.

But yes, now that I think about it, I do get it, especially considering that I couldn't come up with neither an introduction nor a conclusion if my paper was disembodied.

I do wonder if the outline originally invented to actually help out the writer or was it, really, just for the reader?

 

[Mem]

And in teaching my daughter math, I noticed that she added when subtraction was called for and vice versa and so I realized my need to adapt my lessons accordingly.

 

[seoulsearch]

But yes, now that I think about it, I do get it, especially considering that I couldn't come up with neither an introduction nor a conclusion if my paper was disembodied.
I do wonder if the outline originally invented to actually help out the writer or was it, really, just for the reader

What an astute observation!!! I feel a bit sheepish in that I haven't thought about this before. Of course, we all know that an outline does indeed help the reader, but I've never heard anyone point out that outlines might have been developed specifically for the reader instead of the writer.

As a reader, I don't even bother reading outlines/table of contents in a non-fiction book if there is one, because I just want to read the story.

But if I'm reading something for informative purposes, I like having an outline because it tells me how to get to the information I need most or am most interested in.

For instance, when trying to learn about a certain stock option trade, like an iron condor, if it starts out with the "basics" (what an option is,) an outline helps me skip over what I already know so I can target my time and energy on the exact info I'm looking for.

Of course, an outline isn't required for this, but it sure can make things faster and easier.

It does make me wonder why educators always push outlines as a framework for the writer (too restrictive for me,) and not as a helpful guide for the reader.

Obviously, I would have been much more in favor of outlines if someone would have pointed out how useful they can be to readers and not just the writer.

Now you have me pondering, and much more enthused about developing useful, working outlines in the future (though I hope to never have to write school papers again!)

Thank you!

 

[seoulsearch]

And in teaching my daughter math, I noticed that she added when subtraction was called for and vice versa and so I realized my need to adapt my lessons accordingly.

I love that you saw the need for, and were able to adapt your teaching methods to, your daughter's style of learning.

While I like learning, I hate rigid educational systems that don't allow any leeway.

I found this a lot in sewing as well -- "You HAVE to put a sleeve in THIS way!"

"But why?"

"Because this is how it's always been done!!" (Even though someone else tried something different that's much faster and easier.)

On the flipside, I've kept all my "old" sewing books because in some cases, "modern" techniques (requiring the expense of all kinds of new gadgets) are all you'll find today's teaching -- when someone figured out a method 100 years ago that works just as well or even better, and doesn't require special equipment.

But I digress...

How blessed your daughter was to have a mom who recognized, and tailored the lessons to her own unique way of learning!

I know most schools and teachers don't have the luxury of being able to meet every child's individual needs, so kudos to all the family and friends who take the time to help children learn in their own way.

 

[Lanolin]

Um

What is an outline?

Sometimes you just know what to do without having to explain how you do it, like for example, you can solve a math problem in your head but the teachers want you to show the working out. Then you have to think how you got that answer when it really just popped in your head anyway because you are a super math whizz who memorised your times tables by rote.

I really think a lot of school work is unnecessary paper work or busy work. Designed to keep us quiet or fill in time so the teachers don't have to think of what to do next or come up with anything new.

 

[Lynx]

Ugh... Ya had to bring school into this.

I remember long, long ago, when Lynx was just a kitten, I went to elementary school. For a while we were tasked with writing the numbers, 1 through 100, every day. This was pure tedium so I did it as fast as I could drive my hand to do it.

I found it was much easier and faster to write 1-10 across the top, then fill in the columns going down -
1
11
21
31
41
and so on, then work on 2, 12, 22 and so on, until I finished filling in the grid.

I didn't see anything wrong with this. I did the requisite task and got it done faster. The teacher didn't mind. And everything was fine... until the day my teacher was sick. We had to go to a different room and be taught by a different teacher, one who was more a stickler for proper procedure. And when she caught me filling in my little grid, lo her wrath was great! That was NOT the way we do things here!

I still remember how ticked off I was. I had gotten the 1s and 2s done and was working on the 3s, but I had to fill out the rest of the grid from left to right instead of top to bottom, and every number I wrote made me more and more angry.

Of course NOW I realize why the other teacher made me do it laterally. My way did the job, but did not accomplish the goal. (Of course I didn't NEED that goal, as I already knew my numbers 1-100 quite well, but that's not the point.) My way of doing the task didn't do anything for teaching a kid ordinal numbers. But as a kid I didn't see a thing wrong with my way, and that teacher was insufferably hidebound and insensitive.

(Why did my regular teacher not mind me doing it my way? She knew I already knew my numbers, so she knew I didn't need to learn them over again every day. But the numbers still had to be turned in every day, so she let me do it my way. But that other teacher didn't even know me, so she had no way of knowing that about me.)

 

[JohnDB]

Finally....
A thread not as anti-family as others....although it does focus on family angst.

 

[SoulFaith]

Some of my children have had learning difficulties at school and I’ve learned that sometimes a child simply needs a little more time or a different way of approaching something.

One of my daughters struggled a lot with division. They had gone over it many times at school, but she just couldn’t seem to make sense of it. One evening I suggested that we try the way I had learned it when I was in school, the old-fashioned long division method.
It suddenly clicked for her. She understood it almost immediately and said, “This is much easier!”
That experience has stayed with me. Sometimes repeating the same explanation over and over isn’t what a child needs. They may just need someone to find a different path to the same understanding.

I’ve also found that there are times when a parent knows their own child in a way that a teacher simply cannot, because we see how our children think and learn over many years. A teacher may have a method that works wonderfully for most students, while our particular child may need something different.
Of course, I understand that sometimes the method itself is important because it is part of the skill being taught. But when the goal is simply to understand the mathematics and arrive at the correct answer, I think there can be more than one perfectly valid way to get there.

For me, the most important lesson has been that “different” doesn’t necessarily mean “wrong.” Sometimes it is simply the way that finally makes sense to that particular child.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Hey Everyone!

In another thread, some of us who write talked about how we "do things backwards." For example, when writing a paper for school, instead of forming an outline as a guide (which is what I was taught,) I write the whole paper first, then go back and make the required) outline based on what was already written.

Henceforth, the Obstinate Outline Outliers Club!

I have several other things I've always had to "do differently" as well:

* Teachers taught us to write with the pen/pencil resting on the 3rd finger -- but this wasn't comfortable to me. I have to rest the writing instrument on my 4th finger -- and have a substantial callous there to prove it.

I had a Lutheran school teacher who was obsessed with "correct" penmanship -- he would monitor all of us to make sure we had the "right" posture, distance, spacing, tilt of the letters -- and that we were holding our pens "correctly." If not, he would (gently) swat our hand with a ruler.

I remember "staging everything just right" (holding my pen in the dreaded 3-finger position) when he would walk by, then would immediately change to my method once he was fixated on the next victim.

* I always have to cut/peel fruits and vegetables with the blade moving AWAY from me. I can't take a paring knife and cut with the blade moving towards my thumb, as most people do, because I will somehow always mess up the amount of force/pressure and wind up cutting myself.

For anything I cut or peel, I have to lay it down on a cutting board and cut towards the board -- even if I'm using something like a potato peeler, where the blade is enclosed within a loop.

* In a particular store I worked at, the people in seniority wanted me to stock things a certain way, taking all the products out of the totes they came in and onto a cart before wheeling them to their destination. I found it was a lot easier to just pile the totes on the cart to take them out (no wasting time taking them out and putting them on the cart, and then putting them away on the shelves -- handling everything twice.)

I could get so much more done this way because I could stack a whole lot more products on a cart while they were still in totes (fewer trips back and forth,) then put them up twice as fast because I just took things out of the totes and immediately put them on the shelf (handling them only once instead of twice.)

For some reason, the older woman I worked with didn't like how I was doing things (even though it was faster and certainly wasn't breaking any safety regulations,) always hollering at me to do things her way.

I solved this problem by aggressively campaigning to work the night shift instead, where I could work my own system and get a lot more done.

I don't always actively mean to rebel, it's just that if I find a more comfortable, efficient (to me) way of doing things (that isn't a sin or breaking any safety rules,) that's what I'm going to stick to.

How about you?

* What things were you taught to do a certain way, but you choose to do them differently (and for what reasons?)

I'd also be interested in hearing from those who found they were left-handed -- were you punished for this? I've known some people who were punished/had their hands hit by teachers for using their left hand while growing up.

* What lengths have you had to go to in order to do things "your own" way? Have you since found out that your need to do things a certain way is due to something like ADHD, OCD, being on the spectrum, etc.? (If you feel comfortable sharing that information.) Have you sought help, and was it useful?

* Were/are there times you have to pretend to do things the way everyone else is doing them, and why?

* If you have kids/grandkids, what do you teach them about "going their own way"? Do you have a child/grandchild who does things differently than what teachers want? Have you had to meet with their teacher to come up with a resolution, or move them to a different school?


I'm especially interested in this topic because of all the neurodivergence society is now encountering, which isn't something anyone talked about when I was growing up.

I've often wondered if I "qualify" for this, that, or the other (diagnosis,) but I know the solution is often medication, and I figure, I've made it this long without it -- so I don't feel that would be the right choice for myself.

But I most definitely support individual treatment plans tailored to everyone's unique needs.

In a time when people seem more diverse in how they do things than ever, I'm curious to learn more about what that looks like for other people, and what you teach young family members about it.

Thanks for taking the time to read and share!

Just seen this thread and KNOW it's one i will love Seoul. What's an outline??? Heh! You're right, inspiration/winging and prayering it are my primary methods too.

Also, i'm basically ambidexterous, definitely inclined to use the most useful hand for a task. Probably why i process info so quickly too as the brain is similar to a muscle, strong connections for transfer between the hemispheres. I also think the heart is where our actual mind/consciousness resides and that the brain is really a conduit for the heart's thought processes.

Hope that makes sense to someone apart from me

 

[seoulsearch]

Finally....
A thread not as anti-family as others....although it does focus on family angst.

You could always write your own threads as well as an option.

I write a lot of threads about family angst because every family I know has it, and it's especially high in the families I'm closest to.

Or rather, it's probably a matter of them being the ones who share the most personal aspects of their problems with me.

So family dynamics and stress is always on my mind.

 

[Lynx]

Finally....
A thread not as anti-family as others....although it does focus on family angst.

Where's the last wildly popular, many-page thread you started?

Less criticism, more participation. You want something different, start something different.

 

[seoulsearch]

Finally....
A thread not as anti-family as others....although it does focus on family angst.

I'm sure you're here to make a positive contribution to the thread.

What things do you do that qualify you as part of the Obstinate Outline Outliers Club?

 

[seoulsearch]

Ugh... Ya had to bring school into this.

I remember long, long ago, when Lynx was just a kitten, I went to elementary school. For a while we were tasked with writing the numbers, 1 through 100, every day. This was pure tedium so I did it as fast as I could drive my hand to do it.

I found it was much easier and faster to write 1-10 across the top, then fill in the columns going down -
1
11
21
31
41
and so on, then work on 2, 12, 22 and so on, until I finished filling in the grid.

I didn't see anything wrong with this. I did the requisite task and got it done faster. The teacher didn't mind. And everything was fine... until the day my teacher was sick. We had to go to a different room and be taught by a different teacher, one who was more a stickler for proper procedure. And when she caught me filling in my little grid, lo her wrath was great! That was NOT the way we do things here!

I still remember how ticked off I was. I had gotten the 1s and 2s done and was working on the 3s, but I had to fill out the rest of the grid from left to right instead of top to bottom, and every number I wrote made me more and more angry.

Of course NOW I realize why the other teacher made me do it laterally. My way did the job, but did not accomplish the goal. (Of course I didn't NEED that goal, as I already knew my numbers 1-100 quite well, but that's not the point.) My way of doing the task didn't do anything for teaching a kid ordinal numbers. But as a kid I didn't see a thing wrong with my way, and that teacher was insufferably hidebound and insensitive.

(Why did my regular teacher not mind me doing it my way? She knew I already knew my numbers, so she knew I didn't need to learn them over again every day. But the numbers still had to be turned in every day, so she let me do it my way. But that other teacher didn't even know me, so she had no way of knowing that about me.)

This is really interesting and a great example.

Could you imagine having to spend your entire school career under the substitute teacher instead of your regular one, who could accept your own style?

But yet I'm sure that's what a lot of people have or are growing up with...

For me, it's also a cautionary tale for whenever I have to try to teach someone else, too.

 

[seoulsearch]

Some of my children have had learning difficulties at school and I’ve learned that sometimes a child simply needs a little more time or a different way of approaching something.

One of my daughters struggled a lot with division. They had gone over it many times at school, but she just couldn’t seem to make sense of it. One evening I suggested that we try the way I had learned it when I was in school, the old-fashioned long division method.
It suddenly clicked for her. She understood it almost immediately and said, “This is much easier!”
That experience has stayed with me. Sometimes repeating the same explanation over and over isn’t what a child needs. They may just need someone to find a different path to the same understanding.

I’ve also found that there are times when a parent knows their own child in a way that a teacher simply cannot, because we see how our children think and learn over many years. A teacher may have a method that works wonderfully for most students, while our particular child may need something different.
Of course, I understand that sometimes the method itself is important because it is part of the skill being taught. But when the goal is simply to understand the mathematics and arrive at the correct answer, I think there can be more than one perfectly valid way to get there.

For me, the most important lesson has been that “different” doesn’t necessarily mean “wrong.” Sometimes it is simply the way that finally makes sense to that particular child.

I loved this story, thank you -- especially the point about how repetition doesn't always foster learning -- it could just be reinforcing what someone might find confusing in the first place.

Years ago, my friend's kids were showing me how they were doing math, and it just boggled my mind. Granted, that's not hard to do, seeing as I'm not great at math to begin with.

But I knew that if I would have been going to school at this time, I would have never understood it.

I get worried when certain methods get scrapped completely.

I realize it's not practical or possible to maintain every single way of doing things, but I always wonder about many people are falling through the cracks when alternatives they might have understood are scrubbed away.

I'm terrible at tech things, but the way my tech supports, AKA Cinder and Lynx explain things to me, I think I could have really gotten into it if I'd had teachers like them way back when.

Thank you so much for sharing!