Westboro Baptist- Christian or not?

[Daniel94]

Do tell, which part of scripture isn't written from the author's perspective?

What I meant was I interpret those verses as the opinion of the author of what God thinks. I think I even said that. I also believe that God helped the authors write in most cases. They couldn't have pulled all this out of thin air. Before you turn that on me I see the those verses of Psalms as a prayer. In this prayer the author is talking to God( I think like we do today) and in this prayer he is stating what he feels are some of the things God sees wrong and hates. I may be wrong, but it is the way I interpret it just like you interpret differently from me. I am not trying to say I am right or you.

Also, you're wayyyy misusing verse 7...

1 Give ear to my words, O Lord, consider my meditation.

2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.

3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O Lord; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

8 Lead me, O Lord, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.

The Psalmist declares God's actions, and then states what his (the psalmists) action is. ".. but as for me, I will come into thy house..."

You would have to say, that the Psalmist is wrong in declaring that God hates the wicked. (which is indeed what you're working toward anyway, knowingly or not)

I am not saying he is wrong or right, rather as I have previously stated I feel he is giving his opinion.

That's not what I was criticizing. What I was criticizing is the way that people see a verse they don't like, then quote one apparently contradicting it. Then, instead of dealing with the verse they don't like (and why it doesn't mean what their opponent says it does) they just settle for their favored verse, and proceed to condemn the other as twisting scripture.

Whereas I, presented my case (psalm 5:5), you presented yours (John 3:16), and I countered your John 3:16, by demonstrating that the Greek from which the English was translated from, actually does not support the view you proclaim.

As I have I already previously stated everyone interprets things differently so you really can not jump to conclusions and accuse them of twisting Scripture. You can not be 100% positive of the other persons understanding so to make that accusation is a little outrageous in my opinion. I didn't purposely ignore your verse either. God is my witness that I read it and thought about it. I wasn't quite ready to tackle it yet which is why I posted another verse that I thought fit the situation. Once again everyone has a different level of understanding so wait before jumping to conclusions cause I did address your verse in the next post and I expanded on it as well.

See the Greek word for "World"
I posted about it prior to this post.

I didn't look at the website you posted cause my computer wouldn't load it for some reason, but I did Google the word kosmos and I understood the different meanings of it. However, I still think no matter what context you look at it from it still represents what I said. Jesus died for everyone's sins and all of our sins. Not only believers at the time, but future believers as well. What I mean is even if you are a non believer Jesus still died for your sins as long as you accept him and that truth thus becoming a believer.

If John 3:16 says God's love is for those who believe, then it's settled unless you get another verse.

What I meant was in the end it is only for believers because they are the ones who accepted it. Right now a non believer could accept Christ and be forgiven. The verse would apply to them now and before. If it does only apply to believers then why do we tell non believers Jesus died for their sins? Doesn't make sense to me.

Wrong. Not everyone is presented with the Gospel.
Secondarily, Faith is something God gives us...

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

John 1
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

So let me ask you this...What happens to a person never presented the Gospel? Jesus said that he is the only way to Heaven so all of those people who have never been shown the Gospel will have to spend an eternity in Hell I guess.

I will agree that faith is given to us by God, but I believe we all have faith, just some people never find that faith. If a non believer becomes a believer they will have a new found faith.

When you approach it at the Greek, more or less, actually, yes it does.

I already commented on this.

Yes, it is an assumption, but not a proven nor accurate one.

This wouldn't be good for non believers to believe. I am not going to promote my God as a God of hate. Why would anyone follow a hate-filled God? Jesus taught love and acceptance so why would God not be of love and acceptance. It seems contradictory to me.

 

[tribesman]

...This wouldn't be good for non believers to believe. I am not going to promote my God as a God of hate. Why would anyone follow a hate-filled God? Jesus taught love and acceptance so why would God not be of love and acceptance. It seems contradictory to me.

Here's your problem. If you tell everyone that God loves them no matter what, then why should they even consider being sinners worthy of condemnation and death? What should they really repent from and what should they believe that they don't believe already? How does it solve their sin problem? It doesn't.

Non-believers hate God because that's their nature. To proclaim a god that fits them would have to be an idol. Tell them the truth instead that they are under God's wrath unless they are in Christ.

God's wrath is holy. Salvation means being saved from God's just wrath over ridden by His great mercy. If God had no wrath against sinners He needed not to have mercy on them. Sinners need the righteousness of Christ as the only way to stand before holy God.

 

[Daniel94]

Here's your problem. If you tell everyone that God loves them no matter what, then why should they even consider being sinners worthy of condemnation and death? What should they really repent from and what should they believe that they don't believe already? How does it solve their sin problem? It doesn't.

You don't understand what I am saying. You need to express God's love for them, but also make sure you are emphasizing the need to be saved. They wouldn't be able to recognize God's love and grace unless they became saved.

Non-believers hate God because that's their nature. To proclaim a god that fits them would have to be an idol. Tell them the truth instead that they are under God's wrath unless they are in Christ.

As I already said I am not making them a God. I am saying show them God's love and acceptance, but emphasize the fact they need to be saved.

God's wrath is holy. Salvation means being saved from God's just wrath over ridden by His great mercy. If God had no wrath against sinners He needed not to have mercy on them. Sinners need the righteousness of Christ as the only way to stand before holy God.

I totally agree. Sinners need Christ and we are all sinners. Many non believers already believe God will not forgive, love, and accept them for what they have done. That is wrong, which is why I keep saying we need to show them God's love, acceptance, and the fact that we have been forgiven. It would probably help them to know your own personal testimony.

 

[tribesman]

You don't understand what I am saying. You need to express God's love for them, but also make sure you are emphasizing the need to be saved. They wouldn't be able to recognize God's love and grace unless they became saved...

I do understand what you are saying. Included in what you are saying is that you think that one should not tell people about God's wrath on them because you think that would be to "promote ... God as a God of hate". As shown I don't agree with that. People do need to understand what they are to be saved from.

 

[Daniel94]

I do understand what you are saying. Included in what you are saying is that you think that one should not tell people about God's wrath on them. As shown I don't agree with that. People do need to understand what they are being saved from.

In my opinion, I see no problem with telling about the wrath of God. You need to pick your moment carefully though. Most non believers I have talked to automatically assume you are judging them and will then just tune you out or argue how God is not a just and caring God. No matter what you say to them they will ignore and not believe because they will think that their fate has already been decided.

 

[tribesman]

Should a medical doctor be "careful" to a patient who obviously has cancer and work around it for a time saying it is no worries?

If one is seeking popularity and fans maybe that's an option. If one has genuine concern for the lost, one tells it like it is, up front and in your face if needed. And if they run off, so be it.

To each his own.

 

[Daniel94]

Should a medical doctor be "careful" to a patient who obviously has cancer and work around it for a time saying it is no worries?

If one is seeking popularity and fans maybe that's an option. If one has genuine concern for the lost, one tells it like it is, up front and in your face if needed. And if they run off, so be it.

To each his own.

Not once did I say work around it. You are misunderstanding me. I am saying you can not just say "Hey you're a liar! You are going to Hell cause God doesn't like liars cause lying is a sin! Oh, by the way, if you accept God then you won't go to Hell." That is not the way to approach a non believer. You seem to be focusing on the bad rather than the big picture. For example it would be like telling someone who has a life threatening illness that is curable that they have a life threatening illness, but leaving off the part about it being curable. Why not start off with the great news and then explain what happens if they don't accept the great news?

So be it? That isn't a very Christian thing to say. What happened to love thy neighbor? With that kind of attitude I don't know why your worried about how I am trying to help people. Also you should not be up front and in anyone's face. Shouldn't you be more caring and compassionate when spreading God's Word? I guess there is only one way to genuinely care for someone then?

PS: I don't mean to offend you nor am I trying to be rude and if you perceive it that way I am truly sorry.

 

[tribesman]

Not once did I say work around it. You are misunderstanding me. I am saying you can not just say "Hey you're a liar! You are going to Hell cause God doesn't like liars cause lying is a sin! Oh, by the way, if you accept God then you won't go to Hell." That is not the way to approach a non believer. You seem to be focusing on the bad rather than the big picture. For example it would be like telling someone who has a life threatening illness that is curable that they have a life threatening illness, but leaving off the part about it being curable. Why not start off with the great news and then explain what happens if they don't accept the great news?

Who said anything about speaking of the deadly illness not being cureable? A good doctor presents a valid and correct diagnose, then presents the cure. That is his job. My focus is truth. Speaking the truth in love, even if it can hurt (and it does, it hurts all of us somehow) but it is the only way that we can be set free.

So be it? That isn't a very Christian thing to say. What happened to love thy neighbor? With that kind of attitude I don't know why your worried about how I am trying to help people. Also you should not be up front and in anyone's face. Shouldn't you be more caring and compassionate when spreading God's Word? I guess there is only one way to genuinely care for someone then?

*sighs* Different strokes for different folks. Compare Jesus how He approached the self righteous pharisees compared to the convicted woman at the well. Got me? Maybe Jesus' approach of the pharisees wasn't very christian by your measurement?

PS: I don't mean to offend you nor am I trying to be rude and if you perceive it that way I am truly sorry.

You are arbitrarily judging what is "christian" or not to say. That ought to ring a bell for you.

 

[tribesman]

...Not trying to be rude, but did you read all of John 3:16? It starts by stating God's love for the world. I know it is only for those who believe, but we are all given equal opportunity to believe. The verse does not say that for God so loved the believers of him...From that I would think we would be able to logically make the assumption he shares equal love for us.

No natural man has any opportunity to believe. He neither can nor wants to believe in the God of the Bible.

Arminianism is false.

 

[Crossfire]

Not once did I say work around it. You are misunderstanding me. I am saying you can not just say "Hey you're a liar! You are going to Hell cause God doesn't like liars cause lying is a sin! Oh, by the way, if you accept God then you won't go to Hell." That is not the way to approach a non believer. You seem to be focusing on the bad rather than the big picture. For example it would be like telling someone who has a life threatening illness that is curable that they have a life threatening illness, but leaving off the part about it being curable. Why not start off with the great news and then explain what happens if they don't accept the great news?

So be it? That isn't a very Christian thing to say. What happened to love thy neighbor? With that kind of attitude I don't know why your worried about how I am trying to help people. Also you should not be up front and in anyone's face. Shouldn't you be more caring and compassionate when spreading God's Word? I guess there is only one way to genuinely care for someone then?

PS: I don't mean to offend you nor am I trying to be rude and if you perceive it that way I am truly sorry.

The most effective form of ministry is to present the Word of God for exactly what it says, allowing them to assess their own behavior according to the scriptures. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts hearts and transforms lives, not men. Our role is to lovingly hold their hand through the process so when they finally realize their dire need for a savior, we can present to them the gospel truth of Jesus Christ.... not Calvinism or Arminianism.

Again, we allow the scriptures to do the judging and the Holy Spirit to do the convicting while, out of love for our neighbor, we share the gospel with compassion and a sense of hope.

Most other methods tend fail the vast majority of the time. Especially methods contrived by intellectual Christians who value their own knowledge over the souls of others. Those kind of people have no business attempting to minister to anyone because their methods do more harm to the kingdom of God than good.

 

[rauleetoe]

I don't understand why other denominations can declare another one as not Christian. It's happening primarily with Catholics, but Westboro is another one. Everyone interprets the Bible differently. They are literalists. Why does that make them non-Christian? I don't agree with half of what they do, but I wouldn't go as far as to say they aren't Christians.

The issue at hand is not that they're baptist..supposedly they're baptist..I never met any baptist that tells people they're goim to hell as quickly as theses ones do..theyd protest at as many funerals of our soldiers with signs like 'thank Godo for dead soldiers's and God hates gays..insert more offensive word for gays that starts with For...they're hyper calvinists at best..they may have a form of relied..you'd cannot serve the living God and spew hate likd that at the same time..you cannot..also they're anti semetic...I do belief to be a true Christian you must bless and not curse Israel..our saving was a jew..remember that

 

[rauleetoe]

No natural man has any opportunity to believe. He neither can nor wants to believe in the God of the Bible.

Arminianism is false.

Tribesman'.seriously..keep your calvinist rants once pro calvinists org soteriology threads please..this is abour the westboros..lets stick to.the subject..as far as people not lovingly the westboro baptist church..I think we hate what they do..not necessarily hate them..do you condone theirs behavior tribesmand? whyd must you feel a need to defend them?

 

[jimmydiggs]

Tribesman'.seriously..keep your calvinist rants once pro calvinists org soteriology threads please..this is abour the westboros..lets stick to.the subject..

It's very much on subject.

 

[tribesman]

Tribesman'.seriously..keep your calvinist rants once pro calvinists org soteriology threads please..this is abour the westboros..lets stick to.the subject..as far as people not lovingly the westboro baptist church..I think we hate what they do..not necessarily hate them..do you condone theirs behavior tribesmand? whyd must you feel a need to defend them?

This forum has no anti-calvinist rule, so I don't know why you want to set up one? I'm not condoning all that the WBC does. But they are right about God's hate turned against people (not only people's sins). It's just that they single out homosexuals, when none unrepentant any category is excluded from same.

I also point out the hypocrisy with much people here and there who love to talk loads about "love and tolerance", and make it appear as if they are so veeeery loving and tolerant, and then yet there's none of it in them when someone, like WBC, dissent from their own views. I just think that it shows how these people really are.

 

[jimmydiggs]

. I just think that it shows how these people really are.

True facts.

Something like this:

 

[tribesman]

True facts.

Something like this:

Spot on bro. It's not possible to convince feeling folks.

 

[tribesman]

...Most other methods tend fail the vast majority of the time. Especially methods contrived by intellectual Christians* who value their own knowledge over the souls of others. Those kind of people have no business attempting to minister to anyone because their methods do more harm to the kingdom of God than good.

Your subtle accusations, against those who happen to disagree with you, are resumed again?

And you complain about people "pointing fingers"? Bad when you perceive it done from others, ok for you to do it yourself...comments superfluous.

*Intellectual christians=calvinists in crossfire's world.

 

[Crossfire]

*Intellectual christians=calvinists in crossfire's world.

Not at all. In the past, I teetered on the edge of "intellectualized christianity" even though I didn't consider myself a Calvinist.

To me, an "intellectual christian" is the modern equivalent to a pharisee. They know the word of God in their minds thus they do possess a form of religion however, the word of God has not impacted their hearts thus their lives are not truly transformed. They are "white washed tombs", looking clean on the outside but are dead on the inside. They do and say all the right things but for all the wrong reasons. They may even hold to the most grace filled doctrine available, yet they are nothing more than legalists because they live by the letter of the law yet do not love because "the law" has not been written on their hearts.

It is "intellectual christianity" which is the root cause of various doctrinal errors, Antinomianism being a primary example. They have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of (to transform one's heart & life).

 

[Crossfire]

A slight modification to my previous post that I didn't get time edit in:

They are "white washed tombs", appearing spiritual on the outside but are spiritually dead on the inside.

 

[tribesman]

Not at all. In the past, I teetered on the edge of "intellectualized christianity" even though I didn't consider myself a Calvinist.

Taken what you have written elsewhere about this, you made a clear connection to calvinism. And we're talking about WBC in this thread.