What’s the big deal about sin?

[christianbeliever144]

Hello,
Another post from my years of studying the Bible. Please take the time to read it and the Biblical references. Please don't just scan it and quickly answer.
Thank you! And God Bless!

What’s the big deal about sin?

It is all about the forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins is the main pillar of our Christian faith. Without it there is no relationship with God. The moment of the day we are renewed through the Lord's Prayer, God pours out His blessings!

It is very clear throughout the scripture that God’s main focus was always about providing a redemption plan for sins. He knew this since before creation and executed it perfectly throughout history. What was the whole purpose of the Jewish religion and the Moses law etc.? Redemption (old covenant). What was the main purpose of the coming of Jesus? Redemption (new covenant).

Many Christians today are thinking, we’re good people, never hurt anyone, keeping to ourselves… what sins do we need forgiven? But the reality is, we all start sinning the moment we wake up in the morning. The brain takes us in all kinds of directions (Matthew 5:28, Mark 7:21-23). Some sins can be against God, not necessarily hurting anyone.

When we sin, God separates Himself from us. At that moment we are “wicked” in His sight. Yes, He’ll forgive us later, but after we ask Him to. When we’re done sinning, He’s not going to assume we want Him back. So, Jesus gave us the Lord’s Prayer as the proper way to reconcile with God.

Saying that the Lord’s Prayer is to be recited daily for the forgiveness of sins, is consistent with other teachings from Jesus. Matthew 18:21-22, Jesus said “… forgive him seventy times seven…”, which is the same as saying just keep on forgiving him; stop counting – every time he comes back to you and asks for forgiveness, forgive him. Then He gave a parable about this likening it to the Kingdom of God. So, we too should keep asking God for forgiveness – daily.

This reality may seem strange to you at first. This is because churches have brainwashed us into thinking differently for years. But keep looking at it and studying the Bible references. You'll see it clearly. And remember, praying the Lord's Prayer daily is not "works". It is obedience.

How did it all get started?

Adam and Eve sinned - the fall. God made clothes for them out of animal skins, Gen 3:21. Implying that animals had to be killed, as sacrifices for the forgiveness of their sins. Which also meant He gave them specific instructions on how to present sacrifices to Him when they sin. God gave the specific instructions then, and God gave us the specific instructions now, the Lord's Prayer.

God’s instructions to Moses in the Books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, hundreds of commandments, were given to the Jews in the desert. In those early days when the Jews learned the law from Moses, these commandments were precisely and perfectly performed daily by the Levites, designated by God to be the priestly tribe for executing the ceremonial law on behalf of the Jewish people. With the ceremonial law met, their sins were forgiven. As a result, God lived among them, in the form of a smoke pillar by day, and a fire pillar by night (Exo 13:21). God was only able to do this after their sins were forgiven. He would not have been able to otherwise. During that time, God’s blessings poured on them. Protected them from the Egyptians, daily food provided in the desert, etc. Today, we know that that was God’s preparatory provision until the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

The main point here is, that the Jews actually carried-out all these difficult precise requirements and repeated them daily (example in Num 28:3-8), for the forgiveness of sins. But today, if you tell someone you have to recite the Lord’s Prayer daily for the daily renewal and forgiveness of sins, they complain. “Do I have to say it daily?…”

Churches today went too far with interpreting the new covenant. Yes, Jesus fulfilled the Leviticus law, and there’s no more need for ceremonial sacrifices. In abolishing the ceremonial law, churches mistakenly also abolished the daily fellowship with God. Saying the Lord’s Prayer daily is not ceremonial law. His sacrifice on the cross morphed us from the daily repeating hundreds of difficult animal and other sacrificial Leviticus requirements, to simply become the daily recital of the Lord’s Prayer to receive the Bread of life from God, and then the Holy Spirit can dwell within us, Luke 11:13.

The daily reciting of the Lord’s Prayer is also our daily fellowship with God, as He always desired. God is the same always. He has the same unchanging Personality. He always wanted daily fellowship with us. From the days of Adam (Gen 3:8), to the daily manna that couldn’t be hoarded more than one day (Exo 16:4), to the ceremonial law of daily sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins (Leviticus and Numbers), to the Lord’s Prayer today (Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke11:2-4).

If you insist on following the teaching of the churches today: “all you have to do is declare belief one time and you’re done”, then God will definitely say He never knew you on judgement day (Matthew 7:23: "Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"). Note that in the Bible it is made clear that in God's sight anyone who's sins are not forgiven, is an "evildoer". Yes, even the nicest person on earth, can be an evildoer if their sins are not forgiven.

 

[studentoftheword]

When we sin, God separates Himself from us.

I say -------NO --I fully disagree with your statement here ------God never separates Himself from Us ----We are the Ones who Separate ourselves from God ------ God is always available to us if we turn from our wickedness ------Our Sin Blocks and separates US from Getting to God ------as does our Corrupt Nature ------

But today, if you tell someone you have to recite the Lord’s Prayer daily for the daily renewal and forgiveness of sins, they complain. “Do I have to say it daily?…”

I say -----Again --I Totally Disagree with your studying of the Bible -----here ------Receiving Jesus is the only one who today can free us from our sins ------The Lords Prayer never took away sin from anyone in the Old Testament ------- Animal Sacrifices were required to COVER SIN for a YEAR ONLY -----and that was for the Jews only -----The Gentiles were SOL for heaven --they were doomed ---until the Gentiles were grafted into the Salvation plan ------


It seems your stuck in the Old Testament -----you need to revamp your thinking ---I think ----The New Covenant of Grace did not start till Jesus died and was taken to heaven ------Jesus came under the Old Testament -----so Matthew --Mark --Luke and John are still Old Testament Gospels -----we are beyond that now -----

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

What's the big deal about sin?

It makes you die

How blessed we are to know him- The Resurrection and The Life that we don't deserve.

 

[Nehemiah6]

When we sin, God separates Himself from us. At that moment we are “wicked” in His sight. Yes, He’ll forgive us later, but after we ask Him to. When we’re done sinning, He’s not going to assume we want Him back. So, Jesus gave us the Lord’s Prayer as the proper way to reconcile with God.

That is not really the purpose of the Lord's Prayer, and neither is this scenario biblical. God never regards His children as "wicked" but He does regard them as "disobedient children" who must be chastised.

 

[NotmebutHim]

"Throughout the years, denominations and/or individual church bodies have allowed error to creep in that goes against the teachings of Scripture"

sounds better than

"People (or more specifically Christians) have been brainwashed by churches over the years"

See the difference in tone?

We can easily discuss error(s) that/which go(es) against Scripture, but the minute you assert that churches as a whole have been wrong, you're gonna lose a great deal of your intended audience.

$0.02.

 

[christianbeliever144]

I say -------NO --I fully disagree with your statement here ------God never separates Himself from Us ----We are the Ones who Separate ourselves from God ------ God is always available to us if we turn from our wickedness ------Our Sin Blocks and separates US from Getting to God ------as does our Corrupt Nature ------



I say -----Again --I Totally Disagree with your studying of the Bible -----here ------Receiving Jesus is the only one who today can free us from our sins ------The Lords Prayer never took away sin from anyone in the Old Testament ------- Animal Sacrifices were required to COVER SIN for a YEAR ONLY -----and that was for the Jews only -----The Gentiles were SOL for heaven --they were doomed ---until the Gentiles were grafted into the Salvation plan ------


It seems your stuck in the Old Testament -----you need to revamp your thinking ---I think ----The New Covenant of Grace did not start till Jesus died and was taken to heaven ------Jesus came under the Old Testament -----so Matthew --Mark --Luke and John are still Old Testament Gospels -----we are beyond that now -----

Studentoftheword,

Please look at John Chapter 6. Most of it is about Jesus telling the Jewish Pharisees to eat His flesh and drink His blood. This was Jesus before the cross, before His death, talking to Jewish people, telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
So why can't Jesus' prayer taught to His disciples whom He knew would be His Christian church later, why would He teach them a Jewish tradition, but in John 6, teach them about eating His body?

I'm passionately driven by love for God and fellow humans of all backgrounds.

With Love,
Christian Believer

 

[Runningman]

Hello,
Another post from my years of studying the Bible. Please take the time to read it and the Biblical references. Please don't just scan it and quickly answer.
Thank you! And God Bless!

What’s the big deal about sin?

It is all about the forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins is the main pillar of our Christian faith. Without it there is no relationship with God. The moment of the day we are renewed through the Lord's Prayer, God pours out His blessings!

It is very clear throughout the scripture that God’s main focus was always about providing a redemption plan for sins. He knew this since before creation and executed it perfectly throughout history. What was the whole purpose of the Jewish religion and the Moses law etc.? Redemption (old covenant). What was the main purpose of the coming of Jesus? Redemption (new covenant).

Many Christians today are thinking, we’re good people, never hurt anyone, keeping to ourselves… what sins do we need forgiven? But the reality is, we all start sinning the moment we wake up in the morning. The brain takes us in all kinds of directions (Matthew 5:28, Mark 7:21-23). Some sins can be against God, not necessarily hurting anyone.

When we sin, God separates Himself from us. At that moment we are “wicked” in His sight. Yes, He’ll forgive us later, but after we ask Him to. When we’re done sinning, He’s not going to assume we want Him back. So, Jesus gave us the Lord’s Prayer as the proper way to reconcile with God.

Saying that the Lord’s Prayer is to be recited daily for the forgiveness of sins, is consistent with other teachings from Jesus. Matthew 18:21-22, Jesus said “… forgive him seventy times seven…”, which is the same as saying just keep on forgiving him; stop counting – every time he comes back to you and asks for forgiveness, forgive him. Then He gave a parable about this likening it to the Kingdom of God. So, we too should keep asking God for forgiveness – daily.

This reality may seem strange to you at first. This is because churches have brainwashed us into thinking differently for years. But keep looking at it and studying the Bible references. You'll see it clearly. And remember, praying the Lord's Prayer daily is not "works". It is obedience.

How did it all get started?

Adam and Eve sinned - the fall. God made clothes for them out of animal skins, Gen 3:21. Implying that animals had to be killed, as sacrifices for the forgiveness of their sins. Which also meant He gave them specific instructions on how to present sacrifices to Him when they sin. God gave the specific instructions then, and God gave us the specific instructions now, the Lord's Prayer.

God’s instructions to Moses in the Books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, hundreds of commandments, were given to the Jews in the desert. In those early days when the Jews learned the law from Moses, these commandments were precisely and perfectly performed daily by the Levites, designated by God to be the priestly tribe for executing the ceremonial law on behalf of the Jewish people. With the ceremonial law met, their sins were forgiven. As a result, God lived among them, in the form of a smoke pillar by day, and a fire pillar by night (Exo 13:21). God was only able to do this after their sins were forgiven. He would not have been able to otherwise. During that time, God’s blessings poured on them. Protected them from the Egyptians, daily food provided in the desert, etc. Today, we know that that was God’s preparatory provision until the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

The main point here is, that the Jews actually carried-out all these difficult precise requirements and repeated them daily (example in Num 28:3-8), for the forgiveness of sins. But today, if you tell someone you have to recite the Lord’s Prayer daily for the daily renewal and forgiveness of sins, they complain. “Do I have to say it daily?…”

Churches today went too far with interpreting the new covenant. Yes, Jesus fulfilled the Leviticus law, and there’s no more need for ceremonial sacrifices. In abolishing the ceremonial law, churches mistakenly also abolished the daily fellowship with God. Saying the Lord’s Prayer daily is not ceremonial law. His sacrifice on the cross morphed us from the daily repeating hundreds of difficult animal and other sacrificial Leviticus requirements, to simply become the daily recital of the Lord’s Prayer to receive the Bread of life from God, and then the Holy Spirit can dwell within us, Luke 11:13.

The daily reciting of the Lord’s Prayer is also our daily fellowship with God, as He always desired. God is the same always. He has the same unchanging Personality. He always wanted daily fellowship with us. From the days of Adam (Gen 3:8), to the daily manna that couldn’t be hoarded more than one day (Exo 16:4), to the ceremonial law of daily sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins (Leviticus and Numbers), to the Lord’s Prayer today (Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke11:2-4).

If you insist on following the teaching of the churches today: “all you have to do is declare belief one time and you’re done”, then God will definitely say He never knew you on judgement day (Matthew 7:23: "Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"). Note that in the Bible it is made clear that in God's sight anyone who's sins are not forgiven, is an "evildoer". Yes, even the nicest person on earth, can be an evildoer if their sins are not forgiven.

That’s interesting and i do like the Lord’s Prayer.

The only thing I see differently is that God doesn’t compromise on training us in righteousness and a lifelong sanctification process. Nor does He yield in demanding our obedience.

When or if we sin, willingly, yes God does get offended but He doesn’t high tail it out of there. Actually, I think He is always watching and might even allow Satan and his minions to have their way with us for a short time. This is designed as a form of punishment. We can get punished as much as necessary.

There isn’t a point where God will ever see things our way so once someone has been purchased by the blood of Christ, I think God actually sees them as His property. As far as I am aware, there’s no way out of being owned by God unless He lets that person go and I’m not sure He ever does that.

Sorry for the clear lack of scripture, I know that’s lazy, but I will try to follow up later. A lot of this is just my personal testimony and experience too.

 

[christianbeliever144]

That’s interesting and i do like the Lord’s Prayer.

The only thing I see differently is that God doesn’t compromise on training us in righteousness and a lifelong sanctification process. Nor does He yield in demanding our obedience.

When or if we sin, willingly, yes God does get offended but He doesn’t high tail it out of there. Actually, I think He is always watching and might even allow Satan and his minions to have their way with us for a short time. This is designed as a form of punishment. We can get punished as much as necessary.

There isn’t a point where God will ever see things our way so once someone has been purchased by the blood of Christ, I think God actually sees them as His property. As far as I am aware, there’s no way out of being owned by God unless He lets that person go and I’m not sure He ever does that.

Sorry for the clear lack of scripture, I know that’s lazy, but I will try to follow up later. A lot of this is just my personal testimony and experience too.

Hello @Runningman,

Thank you for pointing this out! I agree with you. Actually I learned some good things from you and from @studentoftheword. And I revised a part of my original post. I will keep studying and waiting on God for more wisdom. My current view:

A Parallel Christianity and Judaism

God's personality and ways of dealing with His people have been very consistent throughout history from the Jewish days to the Christian days.

Initial state:

Jewish: Several verses in Exodus and Deuteronomy clearly state that the Jews were God's chosen people. Example,
Exodus 19:5
Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine.

Christians: In parallel, Jesus purchased those who believed in Him with His blood. And they became His.
Galatians 3:13
Christ bought us with His blood and made us free from the Law.

Comparing the two cases:

Jewish: When the Jewish people sinned, God's instructions in Leviticus were to present sacrifices to the Lord to atone for their sins. In other words, although sin separated them from God, in this case the Jewish people that sinned did not stop being God's chosen people. They remained God's chosen people as long as the daily sacrifices were presented as instructed (Exodus 19:5).

Christians: When the Christian believers sin, Jesus provided the perfect prayer for the forgiveness of their sins (Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke11:2-4). As long as this prayer is recited daily as instructed by Jesus, a Christian remains in Jesus, and Jesus remains in Him. And those Christians remain belonging to Jesus (saved):
John 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

But if a person keeps on sinning for a long time without praying the Lord's Prayer, eventually God gives up on him. This person would be one of these situations:

Matthew 13:22:
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

John 15:6:
Jesus said in the Vine and branches parable: If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Luke 13:6-9:
Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, `For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' "`Sir,' the man replied, `leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.

What is "fruit"? It is spiritual maturity. God is patient with us. He won't strike us down if we skip a few times praying the Lord's Prayer, or if we don't read our Bible for spiritual maturity, as in the fig tree parable. Fertilize and wait another year.

 

[studentoftheword]

Please look at John Chapter 6. Most of it is about Jesus telling the Jewish Pharisees to eat His flesh and drink His blood. This was Jesus before the cross, before His death, talking to Jewish people, telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
So why can't Jesus' prayer taught to His disciples whom He knew would be His Christian church later, why would He teach them a Jewish tradition, but in John 6, teach them about eating His body?

I'm passionately driven by love for God and fellow humans of all backgrounds.

I say ---I believe you are a passionate person -----But here is what I see from your posts ------you are trying to interpret the Scripture by your own reasoning -----and that is just impossible -----you have to rely on the Holy Spirit to direct you in Scripture and you must always look up the words in the Hebrew and Greek --to get the meaning -----

Now John Chapter 6 ----this is what I mean that you are just reading the scripture and thinking that it is saying what you posted here -------

This is your post here ------
Most of it is about Jesus telling the Jewish Pharisees to eat His flesh and drink His blood. This was Jesus before the cross, before His death, talking to Jewish people, telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

First ---He is not talking to the Pharisees in John 6 --The Pharisees didn't like Jesus and they wouldn't listen to Him and they were out to get Jesus ------Jesus is talking to the Crowd of Common people who were following Him -----not the Pharisees --so you have to be careful about what you are reading ---

This is that Scripture you talk about -------John 6 ---so look at it -------it says once the Crowd ----

So what does Crowd mean in Hebrew ------we see common people

Strong's Concordance
ochlos: a crowd, multitude, the common people

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second
I say -----so now you come to the eating of the Flesh and Blood ----so what does the Scripture posted below Really Say ------The Crowd finds Jesus and Jesus says this in verses 26 -----

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

Now we go to verse 27 ------- Jesus says ----pay attention to these words --------WILL GIVE YOU ---this is future tense -----

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.
For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

So Hebrew word for------ will give --what does that mean -------

Strong's Concordance
didómi: to give (in various senses lit. or fig.)
Usage: I offer, give; .bestow, commit, deliver.grant,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Third -----So now we go to verse 51 -----again future tense --I WILL GIVE ------and Notice World here not just the Jews -----but Gentiles as well --in the future after His Death

this proves it ------ John 6:51 (προσφέρειν τήν σάρκα μου, to offer in sacrifice my flesh

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forth ------So we see in verses --56-57 ---- Flesh here is

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Strong's Concordance
sarx: flesh
to appropriate to oneself the saving results of the violent death endured by Christ, John 6:52-56;


So we see here in verse 57 --that Jesus lives and the one who feeds on Him after His death will live because He died so we could live -------

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.



This is the whole Scripture here you Quoted -------

JOHN 6
24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

Jesus the Bread of Life
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”

42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.

50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum

 

[The_Unnamed_Servent]

What’s the big deal about sin?

The power of sin is death.

Don't forget that all blessings flow directly from God and that He is the source of goodness, truth, life... Sin is like rebellion, turning away from that source and actively choosing to be separated from Him and His ways; thereby choosing wickedness, deception, death... (Breaking God's divine law). As punishment for this God cursed mankind in the garden and has appointed us at least once to die, then the judgment. In his mercy, He provided redemption through His Son at the cross. There God's wrath towards our sin is exchanged for grace by our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. If we are TRULY repentant we will recognize that our actions grieve Him and we are deserving of His wrath.

If we care, we would make our best effort not to continue sinning (1 John 17-20). This by our own power is near impossible, which is why He sent the Holy Spirit into the world to dwell with believers in Christ and lead them down the paths of righteousness. He is the one that gives eternal life (John 6:63). Upon TRUE repentance/humility/confession, God the Father will gladly send Him to all who earnestly seek Him (Luke 11:9-13). He will reform us from within and give us a heart/mind to love/obey God's Word. Trust & faith in His Word is the path to salvation.

As far as prayer goes, I would describe it more of a personal conversation with God, and yes, we should pray contenually. I also agree that we should always first ask for forgiveness but I don't think The Lord's Prayer is meant for that alone. I've always used it at a template to structure the general conversation. There are no "encantations" necesary for recital. Just remember that we are praying to God the Father through God the Son (John 14:6). And if we truly love/obey Him then He (God The Holy Spirit) will help us in prayer too (John 14:16-21). This Trinitarian consept can be as simple or as complicated as we each make it. But minus Him (HS) in us we are part of the world (...the world cannot receive because it does not see Him or know Him... John 14:17). Without Him living with us Jesus can justly say "...I never knew you."

Earnestly seek Him, and I promise you all will make sense.

 

[christianbeliever144]

I say ---I believe you are a passionate person -----But here is what I see from your posts ------you are trying to interpret the Scripture by your own reasoning -----and that is just impossible -----you have to rely on the Holy Spirit to direct you in Scripture and you must always look up the words in the Hebrew and Greek --to get the meaning -----

Now John Chapter 6 ----this is what I mean that you are just reading the scripture and thinking that it is saying what you posted here -------

This is your post here ------
Most of it is about Jesus telling the Jewish Pharisees to eat His flesh and drink His blood. This was Jesus before the cross, before His death, talking to Jewish people, telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

First ---He is not talking to the Pharisees in John 6 --The Pharisees didn't like Jesus and they wouldn't listen to Him and they were out to get Jesus ------Jesus is talking to the Crowd of Common people who were following Him -----not the Pharisees --so you have to be careful about what you are reading ---

This is that Scripture you talk about -------John 6 ---so look at it -------it says once the Crowd ----

So what does Crowd mean in Hebrew ------we see common people

Strong's Concordance
ochlos: a crowd, multitude, the common people

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second
I say -----so now you come to the eating of the Flesh and Blood ----so what does the Scripture posted below Really Say ------The Crowd finds Jesus and Jesus says this in verses 26 -----

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

Now we go to verse 27 ------- Jesus says ----pay attention to these words --------WILL GIVE YOU ---this is future tense -----

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.
For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

So Hebrew word for------ will give --what does that mean -------

Strong's Concordance
didómi: to give (in various senses lit. or fig.)
Usage: I offer, give; .bestow, commit, deliver.grant,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Third -----So now we go to verse 51 -----again future tense --I WILL GIVE ------and Notice World here not just the Jews -----but Gentiles as well --in the future after His Death

this proves it ------ John 6:51 (προσφέρειν τήν σάρκα μου, to offer in sacrifice my flesh

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forth ------So we see in verses --56-57 ---- Flesh here is

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Strong's Concordance
sarx: flesh
to appropriate to oneself the saving results of the violent death endured by Christ, John 6:52-56;


So we see here in verse 57 --that Jesus lives and the one who feeds on Him after His death will live because He died so we could live -------

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.



This is the whole Scripture here you Quoted -------

JOHN 6
24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

Jesus the Bread of Life
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”

42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.

50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum

@studentoftheword,
I agree, they were not Pharisees, they were common people.
However, let's go back to the key question. I think you agreed this was Jesus speaking before His death, telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood. And His disciples were there. The same disciples He taught His prayer to a few days before.
And I agree with your point about attention to translation timing of the eating and the drinking.
But why can we not make the connection of this with His Prayer? The "bread" in the Jesus prayer is His body for the forgiveness of sins, "forgiveness of sins" is the statement that follows in that prayer.

You noted this verse yourself:
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.
For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
It clearly states that Jesus denounced concern about earthly bread that spoils, and advised to instead seek the Bread of life, His body. Which is very consistent with His prayer!
Why is that not clear to you?

 

[Runningman]

Hello @Runningman,

Thank you for pointing this out! I agree with you. Actually I learned some good things from you and from @studentoftheword. And I revised a part of my original post. I will keep studying and waiting on God for more wisdom. My current view:

A Parallel Christianity and Judaism

God's personality and ways of dealing with His people have been very consistent throughout history from the Jewish days to the Christian days.

Initial state:

Jewish: Several verses in Exodus and Deuteronomy clearly state that the Jews were God's chosen people. Example,
Exodus 19:5
Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine.

Christians: In parallel, Jesus purchased those who believed in Him with His blood. And they became His.
Galatians 3:13
Christ bought us with His blood and made us free from the Law.

Comparing the two cases:

Jewish: When the Jewish people sinned, God's instructions in Leviticus were to present sacrifices to the Lord to atone for their sins. In other words, although sin separated them from God, in this case the Jewish people that sinned did not stop being God's chosen people. They remained God's chosen people as long as the daily sacrifices were presented as instructed (Exodus 19:5).

Christians: When the Christian believers sin, Jesus provided the perfect prayer for the forgiveness of their sins (Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke11:2-4). As long as this prayer is recited daily as instructed by Jesus, a Christian remains in Jesus, and Jesus remains in Him. And those Christians remain belonging to Jesus (saved):
John 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

But if a person keeps on sinning for a long time without praying the Lord's Prayer, eventually God gives up on him. This person would be one of these situations:

Matthew 13:22:
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

John 15:6:
Jesus said in the Vine and branches parable: If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Luke 13:6-9:
Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, `For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' "`Sir,' the man replied, `leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.

What is "fruit"? It is spiritual maturity. God is patient with us. He won't strike us down if we skip a few times praying the Lord's Prayer, or if we don't read our Bible for spiritual maturity, as in the fig tree parable. Fertilize and wait another year.

I think 1 John 1:5-10 sums it up:
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In summary, from my perspective: walk in the light not darkness. By the way you're a sinner so keep on confessing your sins to God. Do your best to live a righteous life, but you'll never get it perfect.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But here is what I see from your posts ------you are trying to interpret the Scripture by your own reasoning

Well said. A very unique perspective, no doubt, but quite misleading to those who may be searching for the truth.

 

[studentoftheword]

But why can we not make the connection of this with His Prayer? The "bread" in the Jesus prayer is His body for the forgiveness of sins, "forgiveness of sins" is the statement that follows in that prayer.

Because as I pointed out ---the word BREAD IN THE PRAYER MEANS -----is not Spiritual it is what sustains our Body so we can be fit to do God's work ------it is not referring to the body of Jesus ----look up the Hebrew word for Bead in that Prayer ---------you are putting your own insight into the Scripture and refusing to see the truth of what Bread means in that context -----

Jesus said this -----some have ears to hear but they do not hear -----your intellect is blocking the truth behind the word Bread ---your refusing to see it because you want to say the prayer and believe it is saying it is the Body of Christ ---when in fact it is not meaning that ------

And besides that your are nullifying what Jesus did on the Cross for even saying the pray today ----as people's sins have been already forgiven ------

People need to get this --------You do not go to Hell now for your sins ------you go to HELL NOW FOR REJECTING JESUS CHRIST __WHO PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS ---------

AND PLEASE FOLKS ___NOTE THIS ______________ IF NOW___Anyone Rejects --JESUS CHRIST As Their Lord and Saviour --THEN THEY REJECT __THE FATHER AS WELL---AS JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ____ONE ------and then your definitely HELL BOUND -----as you have no recourse -------

The Lord's Pray will NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS ------

I say -----So christianbeliever144 ----if you insist on saying the Lords Prayer and go against what God says not to do which is -----not to repeat repetitive PRAYERS as the Gentiles do ------then you are disobeying God's Word ----That Prayer was given as a TEACHING TOOL ONLY _____

Jesus is speaking here -------Matthew 6
AMPC
And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking.

The Lord's prayer is repeating the same words over and over ----the Words become meaningless and repetitive -----and this prayer will not save you ------

 

[studentoftheword]

christianbeliever144 -----also note in Matthew 6 ---the Gentiles -----have not been Grafted in at this point and the Bread ----Body of Christ and the Blood of Christ that was shed for all Sin is for all People not just the Jews ---the Gentiles ARE INCLUDED in Matthew 6 and also you cannot drink the Blood of Jesus while He is alive -----He has to Shed His Blood to be effective and to be able to drink it ------and He is still alive in your Scripture John 6 ---so your belief makes no sense

 

[christianbeliever144]

Because as I pointed out ---the word BREAD IN THE PRAYER MEANS -----is not Spiritual it is what sustains our Body so we can be fit to do God's work ------it is not referring to the body of Jesus ----look up the Hebrew word for Bead in that Prayer ---------you are putting your own insight into the Scripture and refusing to see the truth of what Bread means in that context -----

Jesus said this -----some have ears to hear but they do not hear -----your intellect is blocking the truth behind the word Bread ---your refusing to see it because you want to say the prayer and believe it is saying it is the Body of Christ ---when in fact it is not meaning that ------

And besides that your are nullifying what Jesus did on the Cross for even saying the pray today ----as people's sins have been already forgiven ------

People need to get this --------You do not go to Hell now for your sins ------you go to HELL NOW FOR REJECTING JESUS CHRIST __WHO PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS ---------

AND PLEASE FOLKS ___NOTE THIS ______________ IF NOW___Anyone Rejects --JESUS CHRIST As Their Lord and Saviour --THEN THEY REJECT __THE FATHER AS WELL---AS JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ____ONE ------and then your definitely HELL BOUND -----as you have no recourse -------

The Lord's Pray will NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS ------

I say -----So christianbeliever144 ----if you insist on saying the Lords Prayer and go against what God says not to do which is -----not to repeat repetitive PRAYERS as the Gentiles do ------then you are disobeying God's Word ----That Prayer was given as a TEACHING TOOL ONLY _____

Jesus is speaking here -------Matthew 6
AMPC
And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking.

The Lord's prayer is repeating the same words over and over ----the Words become meaningless and repetitive -----and this prayer will not save you ------

I would actually turn this back on you:
Jesus said this -----some have ears to hear but they do not hear -----your intellect is blocking the truth behind the word Bread ---your refusing to see it because you want to say the prayer and believe it is saying it is the Body of Christ ---when in fact it is not meaning that ------

I think you are in this blocked state not seeing the right meaning.
Jesus always spoke in parables. And used in many places the word "bread" to mean His flesh. But you refuse to apply it here. Even though right after He says "and forgive us our sins" following the Bread. I think it is very clear and consistent with Jesus' ways. And you are refusing to accept it.
I don't like arguing. At this point I will "shake the dust off my sandals" and move on.

 

[gb9]

I would actually turn this back on you:
Jesus said this -----some have ears to hear but they do not hear -----your intellect is blocking the truth behind the word Bread ---your refusing to see it because you want to say the prayer and believe it is saying it is the Body of Christ ---when in fact it is not meaning that ------

I think you are in this blocked state not seeing the right meaning.
Jesus always spoke in parables. And used in many places the word "bread" to mean His flesh. But you refuse to apply it here. Even though right after He says "and forgive us our sins" following the Bread. I think it is very clear and consistent with Jesus' ways. And you are refusing to accept it.
I don't like arguing. At this point I will "shake the dust off my sandals" and move on.

if you do not like arguing , then this might not be a good place to spend time.



lots of arguing here in this fourm.

 

[Oblio]

I don't like arguing...and this place is not a good place for arguing...furthermore, you'd better not have a sense of humor if you want to hang around here!!! I have spoken.

 

[studentoftheword]

I don't like arguing. At this point I will "shake the dust off my sandals" and move on.

I am Not arguing with you at all ---I am actually providing you with the Poof of Scripture ----so there is no argument ---

you either BELIEVE the SCRIPTURE --or you DISBELIEVE the SCRIPTURE ----and you have made your choice to DISBELIEVE what it actually says -----that is your Choice -----

You see with Scripture it is not about right or wrong ---it is about Belief and Unbelief ----and we have free choice to decide what side we want to be on -----the Belief side or the Unbelief side ------

There is no middle ground with Jesus ----Jesus said --your either for me or against me -----you either LIVE in the Light ---or----Die in the DARK-----