What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Runningman]

The thing about it is... that the verb in verse 29 is in the "Subjunctive mood"... "so that no flesh might glory/boast [V-ASM-3S] in His presence"

[see here] -- https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/1-29.htm

... so it's not saying "so that no flesh WILL..." (which is what you're suggesting it's saying).




The text is not conveying this though, as shown above.



Of course that's your goal, to have it say this so you can maintain your incorrect thoughts about the Greek word for "to bring to nought" (kjv), G2673, which in other verses is the English word "destroyed / destroy" (2Th2:8b [re: man of sin], 1Cor15:24,26 [re: death], and Heb2:14 [re: satan]), but means "rendered inoperative [annulled, to make idle (inactive)]" ... (NOT "annihilated" or "put as extinct / obliterated into nothingness" or the like. )

That's not possible because your interpretation introduces the possibility of flesh glorying in God's presence. Meanwhile, the actual scriptures say that every knee shall bow (Philippians 2:9-11) and no flesh will glory in His presence. (1 Cor. 1:29)

So i maintain that "brought to nought" does mean destroy in Hebrews 2:14 i.e. the devil will be destroyed. Think about it, if something is not brought to nothing then there's still something left which is impossible. That's why no flesh will glory in God's presence and the devil is literally destroyed (annihilated if you will.)

So the KJV translators clearly did their homework and made a very neat and consistent translation compared to almost every other Bible version.

I'm by no means a KJV-only person, but they definitely did a good job parsing the Greek in a way that completely unites manuscripts with complex ideas: it stands to scrutiny.

The devil is destroyed in the lake of fire, unbelievers are put to death, and whosoever shall not believe in Jesus will perish and not receive eternal life under any circumstances.

 

[Laura798]

^ (yawn )

@Laura798 ,

Another verse using this word (G2673) is often misunderstood to mean that "OUR [physical] BODIES" are destroyed... but this Rom6:6 verse (and surrounding CONTEXT ['the BODY of this death' Rom 7:24]) is NOT talking about "OUR bodies," but rather "the body of the sin"... (<--THAT THING!) And the effect is: "for our no longer serving the sin"

--Romans 6:6ylt (for example) - "this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of the sin may be made useless [G2673], for our no longer serving the sin"



(yet, it's possible to still commit a sin or sins... this is referring to our present existence while still on this earth)

The NIV says, "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?"

Many of us have heard the story a method of punishment used in Pauls' time (or before) for murder was they would tie the corpse to the person who committed the crime-in any case it represents sin--sin that can be put off--that no longer has to be a part of us---if that is what you are saying then I stand corrected--again, your posts are sometimes difficult to make out.

 

[ewq1938]

Why is this so hard to understand? For a start, God is outside of time, so "years" means nothing. Second, death is not the end of existence. We are born dead in trespass and sin, but we still exist. Death is separation from God.

Not a single word of that is from the bible. It's completely false, made up things. God is unaffected by time but is not "outside" of time. Death, after being resurrected in the last resurrection, in an eternal fire is the end of existence. The bible is very clear about that. Living people are separated from God so separation from God has nothing to do with death.

 

[ewq1938]

I didn't say that.

I said "that [/so that] the body of the sin" might be "rendered inoperative [/made idle (inactive); G2673]".

That's what the verse states.

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/6-6.htm - Romans 6:6



No it isn't.



This verse is not conveying such a thing.

It doesn't convey the people moving around in pain and gnashing their teeth either. If they are idle then they aren't moving or even alive. No surprise that verses you guys use proves your own theory to be wrong. In the eternal torture doctrine, people are not idle or inactive in the lake of fire. They are in Annihilation doctrine. Interesting how that verse and Annihilation match so well.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It doesn't convey the people moving around in pain and gnashing their teeth either.

I am one who sees all of the "there shall be weeping [/wailing] and gnashing of teeth" passages as applying at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth and their NON-ENTRANCE into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (I also believe they then "die" and are in "hell / hades"... kinda like Lk16 illustrates also)

If they are idle then they aren't moving or even alive.

Welp, I see a problem there, because the Rev20 text states that "death" and "hell / hades" DELIVERED UP the DEAD (this is WELL-AFTER *ALL* saints of all time-periods would have completed experiencing "resurrection" ['resurrection OF LIFE'] by the time of the STARTING of the MK AGE 1000-yrs prior to this point!)

Then the text goes on to say that "death" itself (which 1Cor15:26 says will be "rendered inoperative"!!) and "hell / hades" are both "cast into the lake of fire" (no one from this point on will be utilizing its function!)...

... and the text furthermore states: "this is the second death--the lake of fire"...

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-14.htm

...notice it does not state: "this is the second death--DEATH [/or non-existence / annihilation / extinction into nothingness / obliteration / etc]"

No surprise that verses you guys use proves your own theory to be wrong. In the eternal torture doctrine, people are not idle or inactive in the lake of fire. They are in Annihilation doctrine. Interesting how that verse and Annihilation match so well.

I disagree that they "match so well"... I think your imagination makes it seem so, to you. No offense.



[it happens to match "resurrection OF JUDGMENT / DAMNATION" though...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ To be clear... the "rendered inoperative" word is used for THESE: "the man of sin" (no longer operating in his role that he will be DURING the trib yrs--at the point in time when Christ RETURNS to the earth FOR the MK age, 2Th2:8b)... satan (Heb2:14)... and "death" (1Cor15:24,26... the last enemy... at the GWTj point in the chronology).

IOW, the texts are not saying that those ppl "cast into the lake of fire" (v.15) are "rendered idle / rendered inoperative"... No text states this OF THEM (the lost / unsaved persons).

 

[Laura798]

Here's a video by the same teacher in the original video posted by Radius, 'Rethinking Hell'. In it he lists a great many Christian pastors, teachers etc who believe the doctrine of Annihilation -- it's odd how people think it's some 'fringe' doctrine when it was what Christians believed until the pagan myth of ETC bled into Protestantism from the Roman Catholics. Also, people keep bringing up denominations they believe aren't orthodox--but those denominations came out of orthodox teaching--don't forget that was already happening in the first Century Church!

 

[cv5]

I am one who sees all of the "there shall be weeping [/wailing] and gnashing of teeth" passages as applying at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth and their NON-ENTRANCE into the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (I also believe they then "die" and are in "hell / hades"... kinda like Lk16 illustrates also)



Welp, I see a problem there, because the Rev20 text states that "death" and "hell / hades" DELIVERED UP the DEAD (this is WELL-AFTER *ALL* saints of all time-periods would have completed experiencing "resurrection" ['resurrection OF LIFE'] by the time of the STARTING of the MK AGE 1000-yrs prior to this point!)

Then the text goes on to say that "death" itself (which 1Cor15:26 says will be "rendered inoperative"!!) and "hell / hades" are both "cast into the lake of fire" (no one from this point on will be utilizing its function!)...

... and the text furthermore states: "this is the second death--the lake of fire"...

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-14.htm

...notice it does not state: "this is the second death--DEATH [/or non-existence / annihilation / extinction into nothingness / obliteration / etc]"



I disagree that they "match so well"... I think your imagination makes it seem so, to you. No offense.



[it happens to match "resurrection OF JUDGMENT / DAMNATION" though...]

I would say the weeping and gnashing of teeth begins at the SC. But Luke 13:28 ("when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourself thrust out") seems to indicate an enduring phenomenon, as we are past the tribulation and well into the restoration at this point.

 

[Duckybill]

So...what religion are you exactly if you don't believe the bible?

And I ask you again, why don't you believe the Bible? "Eternal life" and "Everlasting punishment" EXACT same Greek word!

 

[Duckybill]

<this is figurative for ETERNITY and TORMENTED means PUNISHMENT evidenced by ALL other verses in both the New and Old Testament that say the wicked will:

PERISH/ DIE/ BE DESTROYED.

"Figurative" = God lied!

DB,

We have posted hundreds of verses to your one--what other LITERAL verses (and please VERSE (S) not just one verse. It must be LITERAL , not FIGURATIVE.

I doubt that you even know what the Bible says will happen to "all liars". If you're not JW, then what?

 

[Duckybill]

I asked, "Duckybill-are you like a bored 14 year old kid down in the basement somewhere? Your comments are so sophomoric."

Your response: "Are you a JW?"

I guess your response answers my question in the affirmative.

If you're not JW then why do you sound like you were brainwashed at Kingdom Hall?

 

[Laura798]

If you're not JW then why do you sound like you were brainwashed at Kingdom Hall?

Sheesh, Duckybill--your Kingdom Hall quips are like guys in their 50's who still think farting out loud is funny--can't you come up with something else? By the way--Jehovah's Witness and ALL false religions that call themselves Christian are an off shoot of some main stream denomination.

do a search and you will see plenty of mainstream pastors and teachers that believe in Annihilation--in fact it has always been the main belief until the Roman Catholics made the pagan myth of eternal conscious torment popular. If it was the TRUTH, then why isn't it mentioned anywhere in the Nicene Creed? I'll tell you why , because up until that time and some time after ALL people believed Christ paid the penalty in FULL by his death--that He died in our place and that the punishment for sin was obviously DEATH.

 

[Duckybill]

Sheesh, Duckybill--your Kingdom Hall quips are like guys in their 50's who still think farting out loud is funny--can't you come up with something else? By the way--Jehovah's Witness and ALL false religions that call themselves Christian are an off shoot of some main stream denomination.

How totally unChristian!

do a search and you will see plenty of mainstream pastors and teachers that believe in Annihilation--in fact it has always been the main belief until the Roman Catholics made the pagan myth of eternal conscious torment popular. If it was the TRUTH, then why isn't it mentioned anywhere in the Nicene Creed? I'll tell you why , because up until that time and some time after ALL people believed Christ paid the penalty in FULL by his death--that He died in our place and that the punishment for sin was obviously DEATH.

You're clearly trying to rewrite our Bible!

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Yep, still there!

 

[Laura798]

You're clearly trying to rewrite our Bible!

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. <again figurative language for ETERNAL PUNISHMENT

Yep, still there!

You said:How totally Unchristian!

How's that unchristian? Your false and repeated and repeated and REPEATED accusation of me being a Jehovah's Witness because I believe what the bible says is much more UNCHRISTIAN.

May I make a suggestion? How about reading your bible on your own instead of trusting what you've been taught? How about you do a word search for death, destruction, perish, immortal, mortal, etc

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."--Acts 17:11

Um...Duckybill you do know Revelation is a VISION? So I guess you take the beast with 7 heads as a literal too--as well as all the other weird imagery--even though the angel interprets it LITERALLY?

 

[Laura798]

"Figurative" = God lied! <How so? Jesus himself said he spoke using figurative language. Figurative language is used throughout scripture. Have you ever actually read the bible for yourself?


"“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."--John 16:25


I doubt that you even know what the Bible says will happen to "all liars". If you're not JW, then what?

I do believe your are certifiably 'out to lunch'

 

[Duckybill]

You said:How totally Unchristian!

How's that unchristian?

"think farting out loud is funny"

You don't even know why that's unChristian to post on a Christian site?

Your false and repeated and repeated and REPEATED accusation of me being a Jehovah's Witness because I believe what the bible says is much more UNCHRISTIAN.

I asked if you are JW. Did you ever answer?

May I make a suggestion? How about reading your bible on your own instead of trusting what you've been taught? How about you do a word search for death, destruction, perish, immortal, mortal, etc

Already answered and you ignored my answer. "Eternal life" and "everlasting punishment" are the EXACT same Greek word. NEVER ending!

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."--Acts 17:11

Um...Duckybill you do know Revelation is a VISION? So I guess you take the beast with 7 heads as a literal too--as well as all the other weird imagery--even though the angel interprets it LITERALLY?

You're playing word games. You're saying the Bible is WRONG and you are right. You're trying to rewrite the Bible. I don't think you're qualified to rewrite our Bible.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Yep, still there!

 

[Duckybill]

I do believe your are certifiably 'out to lunch'

You're the one trying to rewrite the Bible. Not me.

 

[Laura798]

You're the one trying to rewrite the Bible. Not me.

You said: You're the one trying to rewrite the Bible. Not me.

I think you're accusing the wrong person here. It reminds of a story I heard of a man who accused his wife of cheating when he in fact was the one that was cheating.

Do you believe the following--taken straight from scripture--please answer with a simple YES or NO

• "The wages of sin is death."--Romans 6:23
• "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16
• "But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off."--Psalm 37:38

 

[Duckybill]

You said: You're the one trying to rewrite the Bible. Not me.

I think you're accusing the wrong person here. It reminds of a story I heard of a man who accused his wife of cheating when he in fact was the one that was cheating.

Do you believe the following--taken straight from scripture--please answer with a simple YES or NO

• "The wages of sin is death."--Romans 6:23
• "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16
• "But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off."--Psalm 37:38

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

You said: You're the one trying to rewrite the Bible. Not me.

I think you're accusing the wrong person here. It reminds of a story I heard of a man who accused his wife of cheating when he in fact was the one that was cheating.

Do you believe the following--taken straight from scripture--please answer with a simple YES or NO

• "The wages of sin is death."--Romans 6:23
• "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16
• "But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off."--Psalm 37:38

You just keep trying to rewrite the Bible! OT NEVER overrules perfectly clear NT! Unless you're not Christian.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.