What Changed?

[Rufus]

2 Cor 5:17-20 reconciled all are forgiven. Not all are saved. That is done in the willing death of Son.
Only thing left is to believe God personally, between God and self or not.
that is what is left for each and every person to choose and be willing g for God to teach each one new. As each person grows up differently from one another. God is my Savior through Son as risen for me first
Have a blessed day, hope you believe, if not, that be on you not anyone else
As God knows (Romans 8:15-16)

More double-speak. All are reconciled, all are forgiven but not saved!?

Then to make matters even worse, in the next breath you say what is in Red. So if real salvation = "to believe God personally", then what is highlighted in black cannot be understood literally. It can only be understood as potentially reconciled, potentially forgiven. A the end of the day all Jesus did was make salvation POSSIBLE to each and every person because each and every person ultimately makes His atoning work EFFECTUAL by their "free" will choice to believe and repent. The believer makes it all "literal", "actual", "real" and not merely hypothetical.

 

[Rufus]

Acts 18:10
For I am with you and no one will lay a hand on you, because I have many people in this city.”
Jesus telling Paul to go into the city for He has MANY people there , so not everyone there belonged to the Lord...

Yeah, you would think that if non-Reformed theology is right, that God would have instead said, I have all people (each and every person) in this city whose sins my Son atoned for.

 

[PaulThomson]

More double-speak. All are reconciled, all are forgiven but not saved!?

Then to make matters even worse, in the next breath you say what is in Red. So if real salvation = "to believe God personally", then what is highlighted in black cannot be understood literally. It can only be understood as potentially reconciled, potentially forgiven. A the end of the day all Jesus did was make salvation POSSIBLE to each and every person because each and every person ultimately makes His atoning work EFFECTUAL by their "free" will choice to believe and repent. The believer makes it all "literal", "actual", "real" and not merely hypothetical.

Reconciliation and forgiveness are only the initial stage of a process of salvation. Everyone who enters the process (by faith) is being saved while remaining in the process (by ongoing faith) in Christ. But only those of us who cooperate through to the end of the whole process will be saved in the completed sense of receiving the redemption of our bodies, clothed upon with our glorious heavenly bodies, at the resurrection of the saints at the beginning of the last 1000 year long day of the Lord. The rest of the dead will have to wait for the resurrection of the unbelieving at the end of the 1000 year long last day.

That is why all are presently atoned for by His death/ blood. But not all are presently justified and righteous.

Rom. 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they receiving (lambanontes: present participle) abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall be reigning (basileusousin: future tense) in life by one, Jesus Christ.
18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment [was] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift [is] upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made (katestathEsan: aorist active) sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many shall be being made (katastathEsontai: future tense) righteous.

17. Death reign by Adam's sin. It does not say sin reigned. We must keep on receiving by faith abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness that God offers all and that Christ freely provides for all by his atoning death for all and His resurrection.
18. All men are subject to physical death through the judgment of the sin of one, Adam. The righteous obedience of Christ bestows on all men the free gift of an atonement that, if received leads to justification of life. The atonement offered does not of itself get us to justification of life; it leads to the justification of life. It is the beginning of a path that leads to the justificstion of life. Keeping on receiving the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness gets us to the justification of life.
19. By Adam's sin, all were made mortal. Upon becoming mortal, all who sin are driven by fear or enticed by lusts into sin, taking God-distrusting moral shortcuts to get value out of their limited lifespan before their time runs out. By the obedience of Christ, many (those who persevere in faith on the path they entered by faith) will be being made righteous as they walk that path of faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes I was just reading about this, the focal point for John Calvin was the sovereignty of God and he derived his schema from there.

The three nouns employed for God in the Gospels are Love, Light and Life.

The primary focus of the flesh is power. Jesus spent a lot of time trying to teach His disciples that power must be subjected to the principle of love. Power does not appear in Paul's comprehensive description of love in 1 Cor. 13.
Calvin fashioned God in his own image. A power obsessed monster who must control every atom in the universe and get the credit for every event in every second of history. Calvin coveted absolute control over his mini-world and He fashioned a God out of proof-texts that was like himself.

 

[PaulThomson]

And I suppose Christ's resurrection, too, shows how "God is willing to sacrifice his own power"? As important as the work on the Cross is, the irrefutable fact of the matter is that unless God had raised Christ NONE of us would be saved; for our faith is futile and we're still dead in our sins (1Cor 15:17). And unless you can raise the dead, Mr. PT, you should tone down your arrogance towards God's great, incomparable power because if Christ not be raised, then you'll spend all eternity in hell!

Moreover, Paul also taught that our justification comes through the resurrection of Christ (Rom 4:25).

In fact, none of us would even be able persevere in the Faith if it weren't for the kind of resurrection power that God exerts to the benefit of all his saints (Eph 1:18-20).

And did God "sacrifice his own power" when he came down to rescue Abraham's descendants out of Egypt?

I did not deny the resurrection of Jesus. So why are you ranting as if I had.

 

[PaulThomson]

Meanwhile, while you make God out be just like the clay pots he created, you should read Isa 55:8-9 some day. God's ways and thoughts are NOT like man's, as you have made God out to be by comparing him to Jacob.

Also, God is immutable. Man is mutable.

It's evident to me that you despise God's glory. You would certainly not feel at home in heaven. God does all things for his own glory for there is no one greater than he is.

And God did not sacrifice his "power" at the Cross. Jesus temporarily, as God's servant, set aside his divine prerogatives in order to accomplish his Father's purpose for sending him. Now, Jesus Christ possesses ALL POWER!

God is like us in some ways. After all, we are made in His image. So, there must be some likeness there somewhere. But He is obvioisly so much wiser, loving, powerful, holy etc. than us

Your ideas on "God's ways" seem very much like man's ways to me. The God you describe seems to be just a bigger version of yourself.

You seem to be very immutable, like your God. Or is it the other way around. Other descriptors for immutable could be stubborn, intractible, intransigent, unreasonable.

God and Jesus sacrificed exhibiting power for exhibiting love at the cross. Obviously, He did not stop exercising His power when Jesus suffered and died, or we would not be here discussing the finer points now.

I meed to look back to see how I compared God to Jacob.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Unbelief is forgiven. Everyone who believes was at one time unbelieving. Unbelief is merely one of a whole host of sins both you and I and every other believer has been forgiven of. So unbelief cannot be the unpardonable sin.
Reread the context of the verses in question. The unpardonable sin is a very specific sin.

Then you are a universalists.

He who believes is not condemned (forgiven)

he who does not believe is condemned already (Not forgiven)

what seperates the 2 is belief.

but a calvinist can not see this, They think the things that seperates them is God made and alive and chose them, belief has no part.

 

[PaulThomson]

On the other hand the phrase "God Almighty" or "Almighty God" is used 41 times in the bible. So there is there is that!

You Non-reformed have such a shallow, superficial, unbalanced view of God. You should take Eccl 7:18 to heart that basically says that those who fear God will avoid ALL EXTREMES!

Love in its various forms is used 472 times. Power in its various forms is used 275 times. So, there is that.

 

[Cameron143]

Then you are a universalists.

He who believes is not condemned (forgiven)

he who does not believe is condemned already (Not forgiven)

what seperates the 2 is belief.

but a calvinist can not see this, They think the things that seperates them is God made and alive and chose them, belief has no part.

I'm not a universalist. Neither have I made an appeal to Calvinism. I've used scripture to show what the unpardonable sin is and logic to show why unbelief cannot be the the unpardonable sin. You can receive my arguments or reject them, but you shouldn't mischaracterize them.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm not a universalist. Neither have I made an appeal to Calvinism. I've used scripture to show what the unpardonable sin is and logic to show why unbelief cannot be the the unpardonable sin. You can receive my arguments or reject them, but you shouldn't mischaracterize them.

But you have not

And you have used the Calvinist view.

If a person is condemned because they do not believe and die in that state before they repent and believe
than that is the unpardonable sin.
it’s basic math

Unpardonable sin die in this state you will not be forgive
unbelief. Die in this state unforgiven

 

[Cameron143]

But you have not

And you have used the Calvinist view.

If a person is condemned because they do not believe and die in that state before they repent and believe
than that is the unpardonable sin.
it’s basic math

Unpardonable sin die in this state you will not be forgive
unbelief. Die in this state unforgiven

Believe as you will. Grace and peace.

 

[Rufus]

Reconciliation and forgiveness are only the initial stage of a process of salvation. Everyone who enters the process (by faith) is being saved while remaining in the process (by ongoing faith) in Christ. But only those of us who cooperate through to the end of the whole process will be saved in the completed sense of receiving the redemption of our bodies, clothed upon with our glorious heavenly bodies, at the resurrection of the saints at the beginning of the last 1000 year long day of the Lord. The rest of the dead will have to wait for the resurrection of the unbelieving at the end of the 1000 year long last day.

That is why all are presently atoned for by His death/ blood. But not all are presently justified and righteous.

Prove it from scripture. To be reconciled to God means that God removed the enmity that separated the sinner from Him, and that we have peace with God and been made friends of God. That's exactly what happened in the Garden when God decreed that there be enmity between Eve and the Serpent, which implies that God forgave Eve by reconciling her back to herself. And Eve didn't do diddly squat, except to positively respond to God's gracious act faith.

 

[Rufus]

I'm not a universalist. Neither have I made an appeal to Calvinism. I've used scripture to show what the unpardonable sin is and logic to show why unbelief cannot be the the unpardonable sin. You can receive my arguments or reject them, but you shouldn't mischaracterize them.

You're wasting your breath and time; for the non-Reformed cannot accept what scripture teaches. Logically speaking, if unbelief was the unpardonable sin, no could be saved because no one comes into the world trusting YHWH. There would be universal condemnation for all! Every single human being is inherently an unbeliever. Jesus made it abundantly clear in Mat 12 what the unpardonable sin is.

But keep up the good fight, brother.

 

[Rufus]

Love in its various forms is used 472 times. Power in its various forms is used 275 times. So, there is that.

And love itself is an extremely powerful moral force; for it impels saints to faithfulness and obedience. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments..." So there is that...

 

[homwardbound]

In my 603 I cited numerous passages that teach that God hates, despises, abhors or loathes sin and sinners alike to wit:
Lev 26:30; Deut 25:16; Job 12:21-22; Ps 5:5-6; 11:5; 15:1-5; 73:18-20; 95:10-11; 106:40; 119:113; Prov 3:32; 6:16-19; Jer 16:5; Lam 2:6-7; Hos 9:15; Dan 12:2; Nah 1:14; Mal 1:2-3; Rom 9:13, etc.

In this post I will quote a few companion verses that harmonize with the above and teach that God's love is conditional, sacrificial, moral and eternal in nature. And this biblical fact would also flat-out contradict NR interpretation of Jn 3:16 because if God loves each and every person in the world regardless of spiritual-moral status, then that love must be unconditional in nature, for the ground of such love must be found in the giver's own nature, which is what the vast majority of non-Reformed believe.

Since there are a great number of passages in scripture that qualify God's love, e.g. Ex 20:5-6; Deut 5:9-10; 7:9-11; 2Sam 7:15; 2Chron 6:14; Ps 103:11, 17-18; Prov 8:17; Jer 16:5; Hos 2:4; Neh 1:5; Dan 9:4-5; Rom 8:28, etc., I will quote only three from mouth of Jesus Christ himself.

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

Unconditional love can never find its ground, basis or reason in its object; for by definition the basis for such love must found in the giver himself. But here in this passage Jesus plainly and unequivocally states that the basis for his Father's love for the Son (the object) is found in his own faithful obedience. Next:

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

Again, a crystal clear statement of the nature of the Father and Son's conditional love toward his disciples. The Father and Son both love their chosen, covenant people; for they are the only ones who can love God. The world cannot love God, which is why it also cannot obey Him. All the world can naturally do is hate God and his Christ (Jn 7:7). Now, we can understand fully why Christ did not pray for the world in John 17. He did not pray for those who hate him -- for those who love the world -- for those who are OF the world -- because Christ and Father both hate those who are OF the world. Lastly:

John 15:10
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
NIV

Once again...Jesus is telling his disciples that to remain in His love requires their obedience -- the same kind of obedience that always kept Jesus in his Father's love.

Volumes could be written about the heresies in NR theology. Paul was right when he said "a little bit of leaven, leavens the whole lump (Gal 5:9)"! NR theology is false on numerous and significant points. It's as false as Non-Reformed interpretation of Jn 3:16 that teaches the heresy that God loves each and every person in the world unconditionally -- a teaching that wickedly maligns God's thrice holy character. Since God loved his only begotten Son on the condition of his obedience, then what would possess any vile, wicked, unrighteous mortal to believe God would lower his high, exalted, impeccable, pure, unblemished, flawless, incomparable moral standard to accommodate evil-doers whose very hearts are the corrupt, polluted fountainheads of evil? This heresy is analogous to saying that God loves evil! I would not want to be in the shoes of anyone on Judgment Day who believes this heresy.

May God help all you non-Reformed to come to your senses before it's too late!

I wonder, if you know our merciful God. if we are to obey 100%?, as I agree we need to, yet no flesh can or can it? Are you perfect? I didn't think so, neither is any other flesh and blood but Jesus, not born of man, woman yes, and he is the perfect sacrifice for us all to let go and trust Father of risen Son to save us, and then one in response does not harm others, learns to not as one continues in belief to see this amazing grace given
God loves us so deeply God died for us to not harm others anymore willingly so, at least for me this I see, or put others under duress anymore at all.
Time to respond to God, Rufus, I surely hope you come to see this amazing grace in appreciation and not be under the curse of the first born flesh and blood anymore
Thank you Father and Son it is done for us to be born again by you, in belief to you doing it for us to appreciate it and not take any of it for any self gain, in it ever again as we each begin to grow up into maturity Hebrews 5:12- Chapter 6

 

[homwardbound]

More double-speak. All are reconciled, all are forgiven but not saved!?

Then to make matters even worse, in the next breath you say what is in Red. So if real salvation = "to believe God personally", then what is highlighted in black cannot be understood literally. It can only be understood as potentially reconciled, potentially forgiven. A the end of the day all Jesus did was make salvation POSSIBLE to each and every person because each and every person ultimately makes His atoning work EFFECTUAL by their "free" will choice to believe and repent. The believer makes it all "literal", "actual", "real" and not merely hypothetical.

It is time for you to believe God or not Rufus, choose consciously thank you, this is not between I and you, it is between God and you, love you in the same mercy and truth given us by Son for everyone to respond to, then the new life begins from God not self or any other person, at least this is what is done for me after a long walk here on earth first in not denying God as in the book of Job tells us all about it, to me at least

Love you

 

[Rufus]

I wonder, if you know our merciful God. if we are to obey 100%?, as I agree we need to, yet no flesh can or can it? Are you perfect? I didn't think so, neither is any other flesh and blood but Jesus, not born of man, woman yes, and he is the perfect sacrifice for us all to let go and trust Father of risen Son to save us, and then one in response does not harm others, learns to not as one continues in belief to see this amazing grace given
God loves us so deeply God died for us to not harm others anymore willingly so, at least for me this I see, or put others under duress anymore at all.
Time to respond to God, Rufus, I surely hope you come to see this amazing grace in appreciation and not be under the curse of the first born flesh and blood anymore
Thank you Father and Son it is done for us to be born again by you, in belief to you doing it for us to appreciate it and not take any of it for any self gain, in it ever again as we each begin to grow up into maturity Hebrews 5:12- Chapter 6

Not quite sure what your response to my post has to do with the NATURE of God's love. As stated previously the nature of his awesome love is that it IS conditional, sacrificial, moral and eternal. His love might have more attributes than this, but this is what I have personally gleaned from the Word over many hours of study over many years. So, I'm pretty confident of at least these four attributes I've listed. I suppose I could add immutable but that is one of God's attributes already, plus the eternal aspect to his love really takes care of that.

The MAIN error people make about truly UNDERSTANDING the nature of God's love, I think, is in its moral component. Just as God hates all acts of sin, likewise he MUST by his holy nature also hate the source of all sin. And the source and wellspring of all sin is in the heart of his moral creatures (fallen angels and humans alike) . This is why God "hates" sinners, i.e. cannot love sinners in the way he loves the elect who he has justified and sees as righteous as Christ. I'm convinced that God's love for his elect is grounded entirely on the merits of Christ's perfect obedience, his atoning death, burial and resurrection. There is nothing inherently good in any of us to merit God's love. And this premise explains the rationale behind what Jesus said in Jn 10:17 about the reason his Father loved him. If Jesus had been a disobedient Son, the Father could not have loved him. Remember this always, sir: Love CAN DO NO WRONG (Rom 13:10), which is why love is the fulfillment of God's law! Think about that! And God himself is love. God can only act according to his holy, righteous, good nature.

We need to kill the Santa Claus image or idol of God that so many of us have created in our own hearts about God and his love.

 

[Rufus]

It is time for you to believe God or not Rufus, choose consciously thank you, this is not between I and you, it is between God and you, love you in the same mercy and truth given us by Son for everyone to respond to, then the new life begins from God not self or any other person, at least this is what is done for me after a long walk here on earth first in not denying God as in the book of Job tells us all about it, to me at least

Love you

Bravo! That's exactly what I want. I want people to actually believe the Word of God. Do you believe what Jesus taught about the nature of God's love in Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:10. Yes or no?

 

[homwardbound]

Not quite sure what your response to my post has to do with the NATURE of God's love. As stated previously the nature of his awesome love is that it IS conditional, sacrificial, moral and eternal. His love might have more attributes than this, but this is what I have personally gleaned from the Word over many hours of study over many years. So, I'm pretty confident of at least these four attributes I've listed. I suppose I could add immutable but that is one of God's attributes already, plus the eternal aspect to his love really takes care of that.

The MAIN error people make about truly UNDERSTANDING the nature of God's love, I think, is in its moral component. Just as God hates all acts of sin, likewise he MUST by his holy nature also hate the source of all sin. And the source and wellspring of all sin is in the heart of his moral creatures (fallen angels and humans alike) . This is why God "hates" sinners, i.e. cannot love sinners in the way he loves the elect who he has justified and sees as righteous as Christ. I'm convinced that God's love for his elect is grounded entirely on the merits of Christ's perfect obedience, his atoning death, burial and resurrection. There is nothing inherently good in any of us to merit God's love. And this premise explains the rationale behind what Jesus said in Jn 10:17 about the reason his Father loved him. If Jesus had been a disobedient Son, the Father could not have loved him. Remember this always, sir: Love CAN DO NO WRONG (Rom 13:10), which is why love is the fulfillment of God's law! Think about that! And God himself is love. God can only act according to his holy, righteous, good nature.

We need to kill the Santa Claus image or idol of God that so many of us have created in our own hearts about God and his love.

God is good all the time as good is God all the time. As Son is the ambassador of God for su to stand in belief to this amazing truth
Thanks I appreciate this response
I am the creation, God is the creator, I see to respond and. to initiate anything

 

[homwardbound]

Bravo! That's exactly what I want. I want people to actually believe the Word of God. Do you believe what Jesus taught about the nature of God's love in Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:10. Yes or no?

Yes, especially 1 Cor 13:4-7, which can only be imputed to do by God for me and all others too, that choose to believe God over ever and anything else forever