What did St Paul think of women?

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#81
Is this ever true? Or is it always mismanagement and theft? I tend toward belief in the latter. (Sure, cities can be overcrowded, but they're often (always?) situated in countries with plenty of space, if not for government/corporate mismanagement and corruption).
Deserts, mountains, tundra, and oceans are sparsely populated because of mismanagement and theft? Okay. :rolleyes:
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#82
In Genesis 2, he gives Adam and Eve different roles or functions, since he created Adam first and then Eve, who is Adam's helper, though still equal in status before God.
I don't see anything in chapter 2 that suggests different roles or functions. God's instruction was given to Adam before Eve was formed; if we apply your interpretation, the woman was given no role/responsibility at all. ;)

In chapter three, God includes as part of the curse men's rulership (dominance) over females (3:16), but it was a curse.
God did not curse the woman; He cursed the serpent and the ground. He declared to the woman and to the man the consequences of their sin: what would happen.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
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#83
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The Christian version of gender hierarchy is based primarily upon origin and
primogeniture irrespective of marriage and/or family.


For example: the man was created in the image of God, whereas the woman
was created in the image of the man, viz: the man was a discrete specimen
created with material taken from the Earth's soil, whereas the woman was
constructed with material taken from the man's body, thus she was the flip
side of the same coin instead of made a whole other coin of her own, viz: he
was the senior of the two on the one coin and she the junior.


* Women will never be truly equal with men except artificially by means of
man-made statutes because the divine scheme of things is a fixed frozen
sea, i.e. I doubt God has any plans to go back and do it over so as to
appease progressive women's gripes about their station in life.
_
God doesn't need to "do it over" because He did it right the first time: creating men and women as equal partners.

You use a strawman argument against "progressive women" but can't engage directly with a Christian man who challenges your rationale. Step up, or shut up.
 

MsMediator

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2022
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#84
Everyone? I doubt it. There are still those who wish to marry, have children, and live according
to traditional roles and values. Raising children is perhaps best left to them, rather than trying
to force/shame/cajole others into leading lives they do not really want for themselves.
I do think the vast majority of women do want to get married and have about two kids; the ones who are unmarried haven't found the right person. The women who are strongly opposed to marriage are few. It's just that women are not as "desperate" to have a ring as they used to be. In the past, it seems girls wanted to get married right away after high school or college, almost like all their girlfriends have to get married the same summer. The feeling must be similar to having the right date for prom, together with the sense of urgency. However, that pressure to rush into marriage does not really exist now.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#85
.
1Cor 14:35 . . If women have questions, they should ask their own
husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


What's an inquiring wife to do if her husband is spiritually inept? I'd suggest
that women married to spiritually inept Christian men, and/or women
married to non Christian men, and/or unmarried women; seek assistance
from one of the ladies in church known to be somewhat of a Bible expert.


But for safety's sake, she shouldn't seek assistance from another woman's
husband; even if he's the pastor, or a deacon, or an elder; it's not only
rebellious, but that's also how rumors (and other things) get started.
_
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
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#86
Here is Webers.Home's comment to me regarding this thread:

"This is to inform you that I don't have the patience to be distracted by your remarks so I've placed you on my ignore list."

That is what you get when you challenge unsound interpretations of Scripture. By all means keep challenging; just don't expect him to repent of his misogyny any time soon.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
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#87
It's interesting to get an idea of the main areas of unsoundness illuminated at any rate. For example, the head of Christ, the head of the man, the head of the woman.
Who gives power to Him in His succession? And Who give power to the man? and who then, is the man to give power to? :unsure: ? "...there ought to be power on her head..."
 

yazY

New member
Sep 10, 2024
3
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#88
we should not get offended, it is not stated in the Bible that Paul himself don't like women like us, we are a co-helper of men in the church, don't put it in a side that he doesn't like women. God knows that we are a weaker vessels. let's continue to do His ministry in His mighty coming, continue to please God. deny ourselves and do His ministry faithfully without hesitation. do not mingle with unbelievers or double minded people so that no one can corrupt your faith.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#89
.

I get the impression he didn't like women much, didn't want them to speak out, he felt marriage
was not ideal unless a man or woman just couldn't control themselves. Then better marriage than
fornication.

Card-carrying Christians mustn't think of the apostle Paul as a peddler of
snake oil akin to David Koresh, Jim Jones, Mary Baker Eddy, and/or Ellen G.
White. On the contrary, the apostle Paul, along with his contemporaries,
represented Christ rather than themselves.

1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of The Lord.

1Thess 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as you have received of us how you ought to walk and to please
God, so you would abound more and more. For you know what
commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Too many Bible readers these days regard the apostles' doctrines as merely
bright ideas and/or guidelines rather than divine edicts that Christ expects to
be obeyed just as much as he expects his own personal words to be obeyed.
Failure to comply with the apostles is a domino effect of insubordination all
the way to the top.

Luke 10:16 . .Whoever listens to you; listens to me. Whoever rejects you;
rejects me. And whoever rejects me; rejects the One who sent me.

NOTE: Impressions are not facts. No; impressions are feelings; and as such
are eo ipso chaotic and unreliable.
_
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#90
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"...there ought to be power on her head..."

1Cor 11:7-10 . . For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch
as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was
the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause
ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Now we're getting into the sphere of self control. In other words; it's natural
for the women to want to look her best, but in liturgical situations she needs
to suppress her vanity a bit so as not to compete with the man for God's
attention.

* Whoever these angels are, or whatever they are, they're apparently
indignant when they see women in church acting as though they're equals
with men in the presence of God.

FAQ: Didn't Paul make hair coverings optional when he said: "But if any man
seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of
God" (1Cor 11:16)

REPLY: Apparently the Jews' synagogues, and all the rest of the Christian
churches in the Roman world, required their women to attend worship
services with something over their hair. Were the Christian women at
Corinth allowed an exemption, they would stand out as heretics.

"Judge in yourselves: is it proper that a woman pray unto God uncovered?"
(1Cor 11:13)

The answer of course is NO; it isn't proper-- it demeans the image and glory
of God, and it's offensive to the angels who, according to Ps 8:1-5 and Heb
2:6-7, deserve a women's respect rather than her indifference to their
celestial station.
_
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
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#91
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1Cor 11:7-10 . . For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch
as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was
the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause
ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.


Now we're getting into the sphere of self control. In other words; it's natural
for the women to want to look her best, but in liturgical situations she needs
to suppress her vanity a bit so as not to compete with the man for God's
attention.


* Whoever these angels are, or whatever they are, they're apparently
indignant when they see women in church acting as though they're equals
with men in the presence of God.


FAQ: Didn't Paul make hair coverings optional when he said: "But if any man
seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of
God" (1Cor 11:16)


REPLY: Apparently the Jews' synagogues, and all the rest of the Christian
churches in the Roman world, required their women to attend worship
services with something over their hair. Were the Christian women at
Corinth allowed an exemption, they would stand out as heretics.


"Judge in yourselves: is it proper that a woman pray unto God uncovered?"
(1Cor 11:13)


The answer of course is NO; it isn't proper-- it demeans the image and glory
of God, and it's offensive to the angels who, according to Ps 8:1-5 and Heb
2:6-7, deserve a women's respect rather than her indifference to their
celestial station.
_
* Whoever these angels are, or whatever they are, they're apparently
indignant when they see women in church acting as though they're equals
with men in the presence of God.
apparently indignant... as you see it because women are pretending to be equals, but the reality is that if they are indignant, it is from that a woman that prophesies without power on her head.
If a handkerchief is a sign of authority of her head, and that is a man, then are you her in fact acting as her handkerchief or her shorn head? Even though a woman may be married to you, she might as well be a prostitute if you're reflection on her is the latter.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,274
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#92
Paul wrote this: Be Subject To Government
Rom 13:
1 (A) Romans Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.

2 (A) Therefore whoever resists [governmental] authority resists the ordinance of God.

All these areas: Rom, 1 & 2 Cor, Gal, Eph, Phil, Col, 1 & 2 Thes. Were under Roman law/control, women's rights were culturally, socially & politically oppressed. Woman weren't allowed to partake in public debate.

Paul's conundrum was the places he was establishing churches were under Rome's rule/control/laws. This problem speaks volumes to many of his writing that women remain silent, cover their heads etc.

Women of the time (culturally) wore a head covering. Not so much with the ladies of the night. They wore no head covering, lots of jewelry, fancy ribbons, pins, excessive makeup etc. All were trade advertisements. Christianity was in it's infancy, the message was, this is God's house dress accordingly.

Throughout scripture women proclaimed God's word & prophesied.

The Samaritan woman at the well told/preached to men in her town. How, she'd found the promised Messiah. And they followed her to see/meet Him.

Esther persuaded a king to withdraw his decree, saving the Jews from destruction.

Another break in tradition is when Ruth (a gentile) proposed to Boaz & he accepted.

Notable example, Judge Deborah:

Judge Deborah found in Judges chapters 4 & 5. The LORD choose her, spoke through her (the Palm of Deborah) & used her to defeat the Canaan king, freeing the Israelites. Deborah is recorded a prophetess, poet, warrior & 4th Judge of Israel.

Although Deborah was the only female Judge. She's 1 of 4 women my search found to be called an OT prophet. Miriam, Huldah (2 Kgs 22:14 & 2 Chron 34:22), Noadiah (Neh 6:14).

Generally the word prophet of OT figures is connected to foretelling future events (Isa, Dan, Eze, Joel, Zec etc). In the NT the primary use of the word means, one chosen to teach, refute or admonish scriptures.

Judge Deborah, put into a leadership position in Israel by the Lord. Paul placed Phebe in a leadership position at the church in Cenchrea, a port in Corinth.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(MY NOTE: KJV translates servant of the church, AMP a deaconess, CEV a leader in the church, Darby minister of the assembly, DRA in the ministry of the church, ERV special servant, NIV a deacon, YLT ministrant of the assembly. I believe deacon (a Church leadership role) would be the accurate translation).

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Gal 3:

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is """neither male nor female""" for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons """and your daughters shall prophesy""", and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Closing thoughts:
God's Word is alive & active (Heb 4:12) always accomplishing its purpose, NEVER returning to Him void (Isa 55:11). No matter who the speaker is male of FEMALE!

The fundamental purpose of every Christian (man/WOMAN) is to share the gospel: Christ died for your sins, was buried & rose on the 3rd day (1 Cor 15:1-4).

Anyone that gets in the way (today trying to shut women up) is impeding this Christ given commission (Matt 28:19). Doing injustice to God 1st, themselves & the lost person that will remain lost.

Eph 5:25 (paraphrase) God tells the man, not the woman, to put higher value on his wife's life then on his own. Point: Neither Paul or God sees woman as 2nd class or valueless.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#93
Christianity was in it's infancy, the message was, this is God's house dress accordingly.
The message has not changed. Scripture is for all ages and all cultures. And there are many Christian women in different denominations (even in the Catholic church) today who wear head coverings without any difficulty (whether single or married) during worship. This has been an ongoing practice since the first century.

And Paul said that this was a practice in all the Christian churches of his time, and those women who would not wear head coverings were in rebellion. 1 Corinthian 11 explains the significance of the head covering in detail. This goes along with God's requirement for Christian women to keep silent in the churches, and not seek to preach, teach, or usurp authority over the entire local church.

God also has His reasons for all this. So Paul was simply conveying what was reveled to him by God the Holy Spirit. People cannot pick and choose what to believe and what to discard. Neither have Christians the authority to reinterpret and misinterpret Scripture.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#94
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FAQ: What about Deborah in the Old Testament book of judges? Exactly how
was she an exception to 1Cor 14:34 and 1Tim 2:12, if indeed she was?

REPLY: Things are quite a bit different now with Christ at the helm, i.e.
Christ's association with his church trumps Deborah's association with the
Jews. I do not recommend using her, or any other woman in the Bible, as an
excuse to circumvent Christ's instructions in matters pertaining to the
management of Christian congregations.

NOTE: Debbie was neither a priest nor a member of the Sanhedrin; her
involvement in the Jews' affairs was limited to her position as a judge, viz:
the Temple's sacred business was none of her business; that was strictly a
man's world.

* Paul appealed to "the law" as the basis for 1Cor 14:34. Normally when
Paul speaks of the law he's referring to the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Exactly where in the covenant that women are forbidden to preach, or teach,
or usurp authority over men in matters of religion, I don't know. However,
it's quite obvious that the covenant is very sexist, i.e. women are not
permitted in either the priesthood or the Sanhedrin.

However; the law doesn't always speak explicitly about certain things.
Sometimes the law's rules and procedures imply principles that we call "the
spirit of the law". For example Jesus' critics were educated experts in the
black and white letter of the law relative to the weekly routine sabbath but
they were as illiterate as mannequins in regard to applying the spirit of the
sabbath. (Matt 12:1-13 & Mark 3:1-5)

FAQ: What about Gal 3:28 where it says there is neither male nor female:
for you are all one in Christ Jesus?

REPLY: Yes, both genders are one in Christ just as Jesus and God are one in
divinity; yet there is a hierarchy in divinity just as there is a hierarchy in
humanity.

1Cor 11:3 . . But I would have you know, that the head of every man is
Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is
God.
_
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
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#95
I do not recommend using her, or any other woman in the Bible, as an
excuse to circumvent Christ's instructions in matters pertaining to the management of Christian congregations.
Romans 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

Let's just ignore the parts of the Bible that don't fit our preconceived notions; it's so much easier than wrestling through the implications.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
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#96
Romans 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

Let's just ignore the parts of the Bible that don't fit our preconceived notions; it's so much easier than wrestling through the implications.

She's a deacon, not the pastor or head of the church. Since Paul doesn't seem to mind that she's a deacon, than I think that is an acceptable position for women if they want to serve in the church.

I know someone who is chaplain at a VA hospital I used to work at. God seemed to keep bringing her into my life. I thought she was wonderful in the position of chaplain! That VA hospital was fairly in the boondocks - it actually served THREE states in the area - so maybe very few applied for that position or even maybe she was the only one.

So I think God would allow a woman to fill a position if no man wants it or there are no men available for it.


🥗
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#97
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The Greek word translated deacon is somewhat ambiguous because it's
basically relative to assistance. In that respect: angels are deacons (Matt
4:11) women are deacons (Matt 8:15) and Jesus is a deacon. (Matt 20:28)

But now ecclesiastical deacons are a horse of another color. Only males can
be that kind of deacon, and they have to be carefully vetted. (1Tim 3:8-13)
_
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
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#98
.
The Greek word translated deacon is somewhat ambiguous because it's
basically relative to assistance. In that respect: angels are deacons (Matt
4:11) women are deacons (Matt 8:15) and Jesus is a deacon. (Matt 20:28)

But now ecclesiastical deacons are a horse of another color. Only males can
be that kind of deacon, and they have to be carefully vetted. (1Tim 3:8-13)
_
I know… let’s make up a doctrine to explain away the plain text when it contradicts our preconceived beliefs… especially if there is no context supporting the doctrine.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#99
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So I think God would allow a woman to fill a position if no man wants it or there are no men
available for it.

According to 1Cor 12:4-12, Eph 4:11-16, and 1Tim 2:11-12, churches that
lack an adequate supply of Spirit-gifted men to manage their affairs really
ought to lock the doors because they have been abandoned to run the place
on their own, which is a really bad situation because when the Spirit isn't
running a church then we have to concede that the world has moved in to fill
the vacuum, i.e. they may offer all the amenities, accommodations, services,
and accouterments of a normal church; but nevertheless it's basically a
humanistic enterprise.
_
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
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According to 1Cor 12:4-12, Eph 4:11-16, and 1Tim 2:11-12, churches that
lack an adequate supply of Spirit-gifted men to manage their affairs really
ought to lock the doors because they have been abandoned to run the place
on their own, which is a really bad situation because when the Spirit isn't
running a church then we have to concede that the world has moved in to fill
the vacuum, i.e. they may offer all the amenities, accommodations, services,
and accouterments of a normal church; but nevertheless it's basically a
humanistic enterprise.
_

I checked out the Bible verses you posted and they don't say to lock the doors and close the church. Here they are:

1 Corinthians 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.

Notice how gender is not mentioned. God gives these gifts to male and female alike.


Ephesians 4:11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Again, gender is not mentioned. It focuses on building each other up with the gifts God gives us.


1 Timothy 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Yeah, I agree with this. I know some women balk at it, but I actually have a pretty strong example in my mother. My Mom is a strong woman and a lot better at business matters than my father. But she never usurps his authority. At the same time however, my father has never been abusive with his position toward her (or even toward his kids).


Before I was saved, I was looking forward to getting married thinking if I get it wrong, I can just divorce and start over with someone else. But I got saved as a teenager so it never got to that point. I read how serious marriage is to God and that we should avoid frivolous marriages. I also read about the authority of the husband. To be honest, this is the main reason why I no longer wanted to get married, lol! And so I remain happily single. :)


🌮