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What Do I Do With This Verse?
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Peace be with you, why do Christian struggle? Why do they rebel?
This is the HOLY SPIRIT's reminder of HIS Holy Scripture;
1. "Ever learning but never come into the knowledge of the truth."
2. "They are choked up with the thorn bushes, living to the necessity and pleasures of this world and their fruit never ripens."
3. "Working out to the things of the flesh therefore reaping second death."
4. "Living as a Lawless citizen of Heaven with lack of submission to the Holy Scriptures of the New Covenant made by GOD using the blood of the LAMB with the churches, to offer Eternal Life."
5. "Do not test the LORD thy GOD."
6. "HE is not only the loving GOD but HE is also the consuming fire."
7. "GOD is without sin and HE hates sin."
8. "Your sins are forgiven, sin no more."
9. "See that you sin no more, so that something worst will not happen to you."
10. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness................"
So now what can and must, one do when the double edged Sword of the Holy Scripture have spoken to them?
Trying to find another way by reasoning with the LORD our GOD's Word?
This is the HOLY SPIRIT's reminder of HIS Holy Scripture;
1. "Ever learning but never come into the knowledge of the truth."
2. "They are choked up with the thorn bushes, living to the necessity and pleasures of this world and their fruit never ripens."
3. "Working out to the things of the flesh therefore reaping second death."
4. "Living as a Lawless citizen of Heaven with lack of submission to the Holy Scriptures of the New Covenant made by GOD using the blood of the LAMB with the churches, to offer Eternal Life."
5. "Do not test the LORD thy GOD."
6. "HE is not only the loving GOD but HE is also the consuming fire."
7. "GOD is without sin and HE hates sin."
8. "Your sins are forgiven, sin no more."
9. "See that you sin no more, so that something worst will not happen to you."
10. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness................"
So now what can and must, one do when the double edged Sword of the Holy Scripture have spoken to them?
Trying to find another way by reasoning with the LORD our GOD's Word?
W
wwjd_kilden
Guest
The problem isn't as much what it says in the bible (This was mostly said to a specific group of people at a given place), but the men who wield it like a weapon. To the man here who told the OP to shut up and stop sinning: I wish we knew who you really are, because you make it sound like any woman should be warned from ever marrying you. Also keep in mind: You have no authority over a women that you are not married to.
May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST chastise you for in your ignorance you speak against the HOLY SPIRIT, you ignorant son of the devil living in deception. Because of people like you the church is divided by all kind of doctrine and all kind of spirit ("Acceptance of a different Jesus and a different spirit according to false doctrine teachers.").
Who are you to nullify what the ONE HEAD has taught and has continued with the Apostles to say to bring in One Order all men and women in the church, as it is written documented in the completed New Covenant in the Holy Bible, given for HIS's Body of CHRIST to abide until HE returns?
You lukewarm Christian also want to make excuses for others thinking you know something about the Kingdom of GOD to guide.
You want to know who i am and yet you do not know about whom i speak of, what and for who, to justify a true sound doctrine given to me that is shared to build and edify others to excel in faith.
'A Christian men or women's first marriage is with CHRIST, as the HEAD of the church, according to HIS teachings that one must abide because then they are true, spirit and life for the soul.'
People like you are an abomination to the New Covenant, twister of what is written to one's preference, also in excusing their remaining sins, thinking it will all go away one day.
i forgive you trouble maker and may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST have mercy on the deception of the devil upon you and open your sleeping eyes to that one and only living truth written in the New Testament. That it was given to all men and women to abide, in order to grow spiritually as One Body of CHRIST. That also fully trains and fully equips one in Good deeds, as they live to be a living testimony to those who witness that GOD's Kingdom is truly here on earth.
"A good citizen from generation to generation will only listen and abide to a Good KING's only Words and will also boldly tell others the same, encouraging them to continue to remain united and faithful to that One Good KING's Word."
"Apart from this acknowledgement they are only rebels, blind guides, disguised, holding a man's title and boldly guiding others. Soon they are all going to fall into a ditch."
"Beware you proud Gentiles there is coming a time when the attached wild olive tree branches will be cut off again from the cultivated olive tree and the cultivated olive tree branches which were cut off before will be placed back again in your place!"
Everyone naturally know what will happen to a cut off branch in time to come?
Thus says the LORD to the living and the dead;
"If you hear GOD's voice today, be not heart hardened. For you will not enter GOD's place of rest." (as it is written, mentioned three times in the beginning of the book of Hebrews)
Warning from the Apostles say;
"Those who want to go on ahead apart from these teachings of the New Covenant are anti-CHRIST and will only become shipwreck in time to come."
"You harvest what you plant and you reap what you sow."
Who are you to nullify what the ONE HEAD has taught and has continued with the Apostles to say to bring in One Order all men and women in the church, as it is written documented in the completed New Covenant in the Holy Bible, given for HIS's Body of CHRIST to abide until HE returns?
You lukewarm Christian also want to make excuses for others thinking you know something about the Kingdom of GOD to guide.
You want to know who i am and yet you do not know about whom i speak of, what and for who, to justify a true sound doctrine given to me that is shared to build and edify others to excel in faith.
'A Christian men or women's first marriage is with CHRIST, as the HEAD of the church, according to HIS teachings that one must abide because then they are true, spirit and life for the soul.'
People like you are an abomination to the New Covenant, twister of what is written to one's preference, also in excusing their remaining sins, thinking it will all go away one day.
i forgive you trouble maker and may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST have mercy on the deception of the devil upon you and open your sleeping eyes to that one and only living truth written in the New Testament. That it was given to all men and women to abide, in order to grow spiritually as One Body of CHRIST. That also fully trains and fully equips one in Good deeds, as they live to be a living testimony to those who witness that GOD's Kingdom is truly here on earth.
"A good citizen from generation to generation will only listen and abide to a Good KING's only Words and will also boldly tell others the same, encouraging them to continue to remain united and faithful to that One Good KING's Word."
"Apart from this acknowledgement they are only rebels, blind guides, disguised, holding a man's title and boldly guiding others. Soon they are all going to fall into a ditch."
"Beware you proud Gentiles there is coming a time when the attached wild olive tree branches will be cut off again from the cultivated olive tree and the cultivated olive tree branches which were cut off before will be placed back again in your place!"
Everyone naturally know what will happen to a cut off branch in time to come?
Thus says the LORD to the living and the dead;
"If you hear GOD's voice today, be not heart hardened. For you will not enter GOD's place of rest." (as it is written, mentioned three times in the beginning of the book of Hebrews)
Warning from the Apostles say;
"Those who want to go on ahead apart from these teachings of the New Covenant are anti-CHRIST and will only become shipwreck in time to come."
"You harvest what you plant and you reap what you sow."
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I have said this so many times I am getting tired of it. People take an English translation and read into the text what is NOT there in the original language. They forget the context and rip verses out of their setting and who the book was written to!
Paul wrote the epistles to the various churches he founded and had pastored. In Corinthians, example, he writes to the church in Corinth. He addresses addresses various issues, including the sins of certain men.
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." 1 Cor. 5:1.
In 1 Timothy he also addresses specific sins to two men.
"Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Tim. 1:20
"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." 1 Tim. 4:14
In fact, I have heard it said that there was a woman in Ephesus who was causing great harm in the church, but Paul did not name her, because he hoped to have her restored to the fellowship. What is extremely important about this verse, is that it does not apply to ALL women!! It is about A woman who is causing problems in the church.
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1Tim 2:11-12
It does not say SOME women or ALL women, but is addressed to A (singular) woman who was causing problems, probably a former priestess of Artemis. The pronoun SHE in the latter part of the verse is also singular because that is the tense of the verb. If Paul was wanting to address all women, for all time, he would have used the plural from of the verb and made it a continuing tense.
The first verb in Greek which then applies to following verses in this passage is LEARN. This is μανθανέτω, or manthaneto*. Because the third person pronoun is contained within the verb in Greek, I will examine this verb and the parsing is as follows:
PRESENT - That means it has to happen, NOW, - not the future or the past
IMPERATIVE - a woman is commanded to do this
ACTIVE - Means that the person must do it- it is not done to her
3 PERSON - he, she, it (in the singular) they (plural)
SINGULAR - ONE person only!!
Therefore the GREEK is very clear in saying that it is something that this woman is commanded to do NOW!! It is not forever, it is not continuing (Imperfect), it is not past or future. We do not have this verb tense in English, and properly it should be translated "LET HER".
ONE WOMAN, ONE PERSON - time is right now - in Ephesus in the 1st century AD.
I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator. Although in this case, it is a pretty good translation. Single, present, and oh yes. Paul is personally commanding it to this woman, which also means it is a personal command, addressed to a single person, in a specific church -Ephesus! When we read the personal letters of Paul, which 1 & 2 Timothy both are, the hermeneutics is that he is talking directly to Timothy, the young pastor, about how to deal with specific situations - men who are bad and a woman who needs to be corrected!
As far as the word "authority" which has been a constant debate in this forum, and used by men to suppress women, mock them and put them down, we need to look in depth at the word!
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV
The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.
Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.
The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to Rogers Jr and Rogers III, it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat."* So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.
Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)
Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.
So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!
So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia.
As far as the word translated "silent" in the KJV and other versions, ESV has it right, according to Danker **, the word ἡσυχίᾳ, should be translated as "quiet, well-ordered." That does not mean being absolutely silent. It means speaking at the right time.
Finally, it should be remembered that in that culture, women were not educated, and were little more than slaves or property. When they became Christians, they became equal with men (Gal 3:28) and they were joint heirs with Christ. BUT, they were not educated, and learning was essential. Most of the women could not read or write, and thus it was important for them to be instructed by men who were educated. Thank God, we are now educated, and we are able to understand, study and read the Bible for ourselves.
So, yes, you can teach. Now the men may not listen, because they do not understand the context or the Greek. They may threaten us, call us names, but God will deal with them in his time, for their discouragement and for trying to hold back the calling of God.
*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, Cleon Rogers Jr, and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, 1998.
**A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Frederick William Danker based on Walter Dauer's German version. The University of Chicago Press, 2000.
Paul wrote the epistles to the various churches he founded and had pastored. In Corinthians, example, he writes to the church in Corinth. He addresses addresses various issues, including the sins of certain men.
"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." 1 Cor. 5:1.
In 1 Timothy he also addresses specific sins to two men.
"Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Tim. 1:20
"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." 1 Tim. 4:14
In fact, I have heard it said that there was a woman in Ephesus who was causing great harm in the church, but Paul did not name her, because he hoped to have her restored to the fellowship. What is extremely important about this verse, is that it does not apply to ALL women!! It is about A woman who is causing problems in the church.
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1Tim 2:11-12
It does not say SOME women or ALL women, but is addressed to A (singular) woman who was causing problems, probably a former priestess of Artemis. The pronoun SHE in the latter part of the verse is also singular because that is the tense of the verb. If Paul was wanting to address all women, for all time, he would have used the plural from of the verb and made it a continuing tense.
The first verb in Greek which then applies to following verses in this passage is LEARN. This is μανθανέτω, or manthaneto*. Because the third person pronoun is contained within the verb in Greek, I will examine this verb and the parsing is as follows:
PRESENT - That means it has to happen, NOW, - not the future or the past
IMPERATIVE - a woman is commanded to do this
ACTIVE - Means that the person must do it- it is not done to her
3 PERSON - he, she, it (in the singular) they (plural)
SINGULAR - ONE person only!!
Therefore the GREEK is very clear in saying that it is something that this woman is commanded to do NOW!! It is not forever, it is not continuing (Imperfect), it is not past or future. We do not have this verb tense in English, and properly it should be translated "LET HER".
ONE WOMAN, ONE PERSON - time is right now - in Ephesus in the 1st century AD.
I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator. Although in this case, it is a pretty good translation. Single, present, and oh yes. Paul is personally commanding it to this woman, which also means it is a personal command, addressed to a single person, in a specific church -Ephesus! When we read the personal letters of Paul, which 1 & 2 Timothy both are, the hermeneutics is that he is talking directly to Timothy, the young pastor, about how to deal with specific situations - men who are bad and a woman who needs to be corrected!
As far as the word "authority" which has been a constant debate in this forum, and used by men to suppress women, mock them and put them down, we need to look in depth at the word!
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV
The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.
Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.
The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to Rogers Jr and Rogers III, it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat."* So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.
Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)
Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.
So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!
So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia.
As far as the word translated "silent" in the KJV and other versions, ESV has it right, according to Danker **, the word ἡσυχίᾳ, should be translated as "quiet, well-ordered." That does not mean being absolutely silent. It means speaking at the right time.
Finally, it should be remembered that in that culture, women were not educated, and were little more than slaves or property. When they became Christians, they became equal with men (Gal 3:28) and they were joint heirs with Christ. BUT, they were not educated, and learning was essential. Most of the women could not read or write, and thus it was important for them to be instructed by men who were educated. Thank God, we are now educated, and we are able to understand, study and read the Bible for ourselves.
So, yes, you can teach. Now the men may not listen, because they do not understand the context or the Greek. They may threaten us, call us names, but God will deal with them in his time, for their discouragement and for trying to hold back the calling of God.
*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, Cleon Rogers Jr, and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, 1998.
**A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Frederick William Danker based on Walter Dauer's German version. The University of Chicago Press, 2000.
Peace be with you, you mean to quote that men and women today already learn and excel from previous mistakes? Do you mean to also quote that the Apostles accused one on that day and excuse another today? As it is written, aren't we all men and women called to come in submission to that one teachings and instructions used same then and today? As it is written please quote: How many Heads and how many bodies of CHRIST are there?
Isn't it as it is written; "One."
The Apostles also commended men and women who were obedient and faithful. They were humble and never boastful and also spiritually took the back seat at all GOD's banquet (gatherings).
Thus says the LORD; "You cannot give what is good and holy to dogs. They will only turn around and bite you..................."
HE is talking about the contentious ones who have an itching ears, who love to continue to live in sensuality and imagination that this is how all things are and should be. They eventually forget the Crowned HEAD over them, who is yesterday, today and forever, Omni-Present, Omni-Potent and Omni-Seeient.
Isn't it as it is written; "One."
The Apostles also commended men and women who were obedient and faithful. They were humble and never boastful and also spiritually took the back seat at all GOD's banquet (gatherings).
Thus says the LORD; "You cannot give what is good and holy to dogs. They will only turn around and bite you..................."
HE is talking about the contentious ones who have an itching ears, who love to continue to live in sensuality and imagination that this is how all things are and should be. They eventually forget the Crowned HEAD over them, who is yesterday, today and forever, Omni-Present, Omni-Potent and Omni-Seeient.
Im glad i found this thread it has been a question linguring in my head.
im exactly the same, i do not think i could be abLe to obey a man during marriage if he was to be like the man you live with. I would love for him to teach me and treat me right then i wont need to voice out so much. So my suggestion would be to let the man know before marriage that you want your opinions heard and want to be treated equal.
im exactly the same, i do not think i could be abLe to obey a man during marriage if he was to be like the man you live with. I would love for him to teach me and treat me right then i wont need to voice out so much. So my suggestion would be to let the man know before marriage that you want your opinions heard and want to be treated equal.
Peace be with you, since you have quoted right, make sure all women are praying and prophesying the right way according to the Holy Scripture of the New Covenant, commandments of the LORD. "Teachers will be greatly judged.............................."
They will be held accountable for other's death. Death of those who have ignored and lacked in their practices using Words of spirit and life, in order to come into obedience as one family in accordance to the Word of GOD (JESUS).
They will be held accountable for other's death. Death of those who have ignored and lacked in their practices using Words of spirit and life, in order to come into obedience as one family in accordance to the Word of GOD (JESUS).
D
Donkeyfish07
Guest
I have taken the time to look into it a couple of occasions when people claim "If you go to the greek you won't get that......you don't know greek so you don't know what your talking about".....so on a few occasions I actually got the original greek text, learned what the words meant and how the grammar works....looked at official comparison translations and translated it word for word myself....Everytime I've done so, the meaning of the verse doesn't change....The bias is usually coming from the person who doesn't like what the verse actually means and is trying to force their own interpretation on it.
You can make unbiblical arguments for anything you want if you wish to engage in word play....satan himself is fond of that......that was his approach when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness
Peace be with you, for those who have continued with the New Covenant sayings of spirit and life, to come into the spiritual knowledge and submission to GOD's love which teaches us true repentance to excel, learning to allow others to use us as 'door mats', and knowing what type of a person has posted this tread and it's pattern of words. These things are difficult to abide, but we must not allow deception and compromising understanding, apart from the given clear Words, to dominate the church which proves jezebel spirit and other spirits have come in. 'This is a Bible Discussion Forum of the LORD JESUS CHRIST, Helped by the HOLY SPIRIT who inspired the Holy Scriptures. They are written plain and simple even for a little child to understand and not grown ups in the flesh.
Has this person quoted from the Holy Scripture to prove it's sayings are true? It is going on even to judge a couple whom it is living with, as a guest. Instead of being ashamed of itself according to the Word and humble, that the wife in that house is submissive to the Word of the LORD, in possessing a "gentle and quiet spirit" truly "putting her husband first", even though the husband acts like an unbeliever. What is it there to hate and ridicule when she allow herself to be treated like a 'door mat' according to the Word. She knows by humbling herself to the Word of CHRIST, given to all women. will excel her in GOD's love, in order to win her husband over to grace and truth. The LORD has promised her in HIS Word and she knows the love teachings of CHRIST for others, forgetting her 'self', is the winning formula to be exalted in the last days as saints.
She is an example to all women first, then men, towards her faithfulness to the Word of the LORD JESUS CHRIST of the New Covenant.
Knowing this from the HOLY SPIRIT, determines the motive of the other opposing person who have come here among us to divide, unity in spirit and truth acting accordingly to the Word (CHRIST), for the Kingdom of GOD in the New Covenant.
If anyone wants to continue with such person to lead them back into the truth, least you get tempted. This person may be gifted but the vessel is corrupted and not ashamed about lacking in submission to the LORD of the New Covenant but want to get our approval to deceive many others especially women who are weak in spirit and truth, who are merely struggling to escape the consuming fire of GOD to come.
I urge you brothers and sisters to pray for the couple who have invited such a person into their house, to be protected from evil deceptions that nave come to divide. Then the one who has done wrong will learn to know and do, minding their own business that they them'self' must first come into submission, according to the Words of the LORD of true spirit and life.
After saying these things of the HOLY SPIRIT our true Teacher, HE wants me to back off from this tread.
i already have enough trouble from the Word of the LORD which HE has highlighted, condemning me now before the time of judgement, the lawlessness in me.
i am discussing with my Advocate and seeking HIS help as my Great High Priest in all my weaknesses.
"Do we have a Great High Priest who cannot sympathize on us, who while HE was here on earth, in every way was tempted but HE did not sin. So come boldly to the Throne of Grace where you will find help in all your weaknesses."
That is why, i am gloomy and sad and not accepting any friends, merely an unworthy servant just doing my duty speaking only HIS Word of the New Covenant, allowed and approved by CHRIST.
Those who are in spirit and truth will acknowledge me as true and not deceit. For those who oppose me, may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST forgive and bless them for they knew not what they do.
Has this person quoted from the Holy Scripture to prove it's sayings are true? It is going on even to judge a couple whom it is living with, as a guest. Instead of being ashamed of itself according to the Word and humble, that the wife in that house is submissive to the Word of the LORD, in possessing a "gentle and quiet spirit" truly "putting her husband first", even though the husband acts like an unbeliever. What is it there to hate and ridicule when she allow herself to be treated like a 'door mat' according to the Word. She knows by humbling herself to the Word of CHRIST, given to all women. will excel her in GOD's love, in order to win her husband over to grace and truth. The LORD has promised her in HIS Word and she knows the love teachings of CHRIST for others, forgetting her 'self', is the winning formula to be exalted in the last days as saints.
She is an example to all women first, then men, towards her faithfulness to the Word of the LORD JESUS CHRIST of the New Covenant.
Knowing this from the HOLY SPIRIT, determines the motive of the other opposing person who have come here among us to divide, unity in spirit and truth acting accordingly to the Word (CHRIST), for the Kingdom of GOD in the New Covenant.
If anyone wants to continue with such person to lead them back into the truth, least you get tempted. This person may be gifted but the vessel is corrupted and not ashamed about lacking in submission to the LORD of the New Covenant but want to get our approval to deceive many others especially women who are weak in spirit and truth, who are merely struggling to escape the consuming fire of GOD to come.
I urge you brothers and sisters to pray for the couple who have invited such a person into their house, to be protected from evil deceptions that nave come to divide. Then the one who has done wrong will learn to know and do, minding their own business that they them'self' must first come into submission, according to the Words of the LORD of true spirit and life.
After saying these things of the HOLY SPIRIT our true Teacher, HE wants me to back off from this tread.
i already have enough trouble from the Word of the LORD which HE has highlighted, condemning me now before the time of judgement, the lawlessness in me.
i am discussing with my Advocate and seeking HIS help as my Great High Priest in all my weaknesses.
"Do we have a Great High Priest who cannot sympathize on us, who while HE was here on earth, in every way was tempted but HE did not sin. So come boldly to the Throne of Grace where you will find help in all your weaknesses."
That is why, i am gloomy and sad and not accepting any friends, merely an unworthy servant just doing my duty speaking only HIS Word of the New Covenant, allowed and approved by CHRIST.
Those who are in spirit and truth will acknowledge me as true and not deceit. For those who oppose me, may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST forgive and bless them for they knew not what they do.
You say you went into the Greek. What were you using, Strong's or the Blue Letter Bible? Those are very simple tools. The books I quoted at the bottom of my post go much deeper into the Greek.
Also, translating word for word forgets the context, grammar, syntax. That is why I went into the context so much in my post. In good hermeneutics, a knowledge of these parts of speech and context is vital. You need to know all the variations of the words (not usually in the simpler tools!) but then understand it within the context of when and to whom the book was written. The is why I quoted Rogers and Rogers. It is a Linguistic and Exegetical KEY to the Greek New Testament and used by scholars and in seminaries everywhere.
Before I learned Greek - the entire language, I used to use Strong's a lot. Now I realize that simply was not enough. Until you understand cases for the nouns, and the very different way verbs in particular are used, with respect to aspect, not time, you simply cannot interpret the Bible by pulling out word for word and translating it.
Now I believe that the translators of our modern Bibles were highly educated in the original languages. However, it is easy to have a bias and translate things that way. KJV is a perfect example of this. Translating the word ἡσυχίᾳ as SILENT, rather than quiet. Because KJ wanted all women to be silent.
Anyway, I always tell people - take a course to learn Greek. Bill Mounce has a great on-line course with text books, and a really good basic intro to the grammar, syntax and use of Greek when studying the Bible, using videos and on-line forums to ask questions. It really is amazing when the scope of the language is opened up. You don't have to believe me, but I did quote the "experts" and I do read Greek.
The OP asked a question about whether she could teach. I asked the same question when I read that verse, my 4th year of part time Seminary. I prayed and God put books in my hands which explained the Greek, included chiasms, which are too complex to explain here and do apply to 1 Tim. 2:11-15. I believe the Bible totally, but there are so many nuances which do not come through when you translate from the Greek into any language. So study it yourself, to show yourself a workman approved. And that means really learning the language and not being afraid to ask questions like the OP did!
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Buff_Old_Guy
Guest
It sounds like your very extroverted...
I'm introverted and from what I can tell from reading other posts... your problem is perception and a willingness not to change.
Let me answer your question first.. I think God wants husbands to be in authority over thier wives. And for your knowledge, I happen to know that wives DO have a say. Here's the scripture of God himself implying that...
Genesis 21:12
But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.
However, wives are still under the husband's authority/leadership. (You provided the verses in your OP... and there's more verses to confirm that too) But, as you can see above... wives can very easily be right about things... God himself told Abraham to listen to his wife. Its up to husbands to make the right call though. Wives, I hope all you ladies become great advisers. That's the black and white truth.
Now about you... I can see why this might trouble you since you seem to be "expressive." Well, all I can tell you is that Christian husbands are told by God to love their wives as Jesus loved the Church. God also wants men to be understanding of their wives. I even heard of an old testament verse that says that husbands are suppose to make their wives happy. I see that in your post your afraid of being belittled but that's not how its suppose to be... a Christian husband is suppose love you and take care of you as a husband should with understanding and the love Jesus had for the church.
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Buff_Old_Guy
Guest
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Mammachickadee
Guest
lol Look at the context.
This was a passage about how to lead a church and not a home... Women are to learn in silence from the men instead of doing all the preaching. This is a key scripture pointing to why women are not to be pastors in a church.1 Timothy 1:3-4
"As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith."
We older, Godly women are supposed to teach the younger women as you said, and we can be blessed with various gifts such as prophecy. The point is to carry out these things God gives us to do within the bounds He has also given. The vast majority of women today want nothing to do with the boundaries and duties God has given us. My experiences in discussing this subject have many times not been good. I have received very hostile feedback from women who think their fantastic education this world offers makes them wiser than El Elyon's (Most High God) Word He has given to us. They don't even understand what they are missing by pursuing the hedonistic values of this world when they could be God's children living as He directs.
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Donkeyfish07
Guest
All I'm saying here, is the meaning is not different in the original Greek.....it means the same thing, the Gospel does not require someone to be a scholar of multiple languages to understand it. I actually thought about learning Greek in it's entirety myself one time to get a better understanding of the bible until I realized it wasn't necessary. I didn't use strongs or blue letter by the way, I got a copy of the original Greek and did it word for word myself and compared it to 2 or 3 different online translations that had the Greek and English side by side, also taking any possible alternate meanings into consideration....anytime I did that, the meaning never changed. I'm not the only one that has went over it and concluded there is no issue.
I actually have a friend here on CC that is professionally educated in Hebrew and in Greek so he would qualify as an expert (In addition to a couple other languages), and his judgement is also that it is 100% unnecessary to read the bible in a language other than your native tongue.
The only legitimate language issue that a bible reader might have, is instances where references/comparisons are made to customs we aren't familiar with (Jewish weddings, appointed feast times, etc...)...but even those are not translation issues.
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Donkeyfish07
Guest
It's not just women, its men too....Obedience in general is a problem. People don't want to hear some things and get itching ears. I've been guilty of this myself, especially when I was just a fledgling Christian.
God does not want us to know Him based on one or two verses, ever!!!! His message to us is one with each and every verse a part of the whole. If you look at every verse in the entire bible to put together how God created women to be, it does not fit for her to sit in a corner with her head down saying "yes sir, I am your obedient servant sir". She was created to be a help and a working partner. She was to have respect. If she was abused, God came to her rescue.
I can't give everyone an entire coarse titled All God's directions to women. You all have a concordance and a bible. Look it up.
Amber gave you an explanation that takes into consideration the verse in question, and it ties in with every other verse in the entire bible. Listen to her.
I can't give everyone an entire coarse titled All God's directions to women. You all have a concordance and a bible. Look it up.
Amber gave you an explanation that takes into consideration the verse in question, and it ties in with every other verse in the entire bible. Listen to her.
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