What do you think of the New Wine Pentecost?
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At pentecost the new wine symbolizes the infilling of the Holy Spirit ---Tongues of fire -----where the Disciples spoke in other languages to Preach the Gospel ---cast out demons ------etc
Interesting reads -----on New Wine
New Wine: What is the Prophetic Meaning of New Wine?
By Helen Calder
https://www.enlivenpublishing.com/2018/03/08/what-is-the-prophetic-meaning-of-new-wine/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...cgg/ID/19230/New-Wine-as-Gods-Holy-Spirit.htm
What the Bible says about New Wine as God's Holy Spirit
(From Forerunner Commentary)
Luke 5:37-38
The Bible uses wine in a wide variety of ways.
It can represent a drug or a blessing. It can be a symbol of debauchery or of abundance. Wine was part of the drink offering, symbolizing being poured out in service. It was part of Melchizedek's blessing on Abraham, and 2,000 years later, Jesus uses it in the Passover as the blood of the New Covenant. Psalm 75 shows a cup of wine of God's wrath, and Revelation 18 depicts a cup in the hand of Mystery Babylon, representing its intoxicating culture and the spirit of the times.
Obviously, not all of those meanings are in view here, but when we link the new wine with Jesus being "taken away" (verse 35), it coincides with the Passover cup, representing Christ's blood and the New Covenant. When we add the fact that the Holy Spirit could not be given until Jesus had gone away, then the new wine entails more than just forgiveness, but also suggests God's Spirit—His love, power, and sound-mindedness (II Timothy 1:7).
In the example, the new wine is expansive. The fermentation process produces a great deal of pressure. An old and brittle wineskin will not be able to withstand the increasing stress, and it will burst.
The wineskin is a type of vessel. Throughout Scripture, vessels are symbols for people. For Christians, there is an “old man” and a “new man.” The old man represents the life we had before conversion, and the new man, the new vessel, is the life that comes because of conversion. But if we take the expansive and dynamic new wine, and we attempt to put that into the old life, we can be sure that we will have a disaster on our hands.
Our old lives, our old ways, are entirely incompatible with the new wine.
The new wine requires change, expansion, and steady improvement, while in the old life, there was no real desire or ability to change.
Remember, the new wine is tied to the blood of Passover, the New Covenant, the receipt of God's Spirit, and the spiritual result that will be produced by those powerful factors. Trying to cram all that into a person who is unwilling to change will invariably result in his coming apart at the seams. The precious new wine is spilled on the ground and dreadfully wasted.
David C. Grabbe
Clothing, Wineskins, and Wine
Related Topics: New Man | New Wine | New Wine as God's Holy Spirit | Old Man
Luke 5:39
On the physical level, a finely aged wine is obviously preferable to a new wine. One year at the Feast of Tabernacles, I had the rare opportunity to sample a Bordeaux bottled in the late 1970s or early 80s. Suffice it to say that the wine's depth and complexity of flavors would put to profound shame anything bottled recently.
Curiously, though, in this parable, the new wine is the one that is to be preferred! This may seem incongruous at first, until we remember what these things represent.
The new wine of Christ's sacrifice, of the New Covenant, and of God's Spirit being poured out on us is infinitely more valuable than anything before conversion.
Whether the old wine represents physical abundance or the headiness of what Babylon entices us with constantly, nothing can be compared to the new wine—if we have God's Spirit.
However, because we are still human, and the old man still remains in us to some degree, at times the old wine seems better. The old wine seems more gratifying to the senses.
Before conversion, we certainly had no interest in this new wine because the old wine suited us just fine, even if it was making us miserable. Even after conversion, we sometimes reach for the old wine.
When we are under that influence, we do not find the new wine appealing because we are hooked on the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (I John 2:16).
It requires spiritual sobriety to recognize the true blessing of the new wine, but we cannot do that easily—if at all—when the old wine is on our palate. It is only in abstaining from the old wine that we can truly appreciate the uniqueness and superiority of the new.
David C. Grabbe
Clothing, Wineskins, and Wine
Interesting reads -----on New Wine
New Wine: What is the Prophetic Meaning of New Wine?
By Helen Calder
https://www.enlivenpublishing.com/2018/03/08/what-is-the-prophetic-meaning-of-new-wine/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...cgg/ID/19230/New-Wine-as-Gods-Holy-Spirit.htm
What the Bible says about New Wine as God's Holy Spirit
(From Forerunner Commentary)
Luke 5:37-38
The Bible uses wine in a wide variety of ways.
It can represent a drug or a blessing. It can be a symbol of debauchery or of abundance. Wine was part of the drink offering, symbolizing being poured out in service. It was part of Melchizedek's blessing on Abraham, and 2,000 years later, Jesus uses it in the Passover as the blood of the New Covenant. Psalm 75 shows a cup of wine of God's wrath, and Revelation 18 depicts a cup in the hand of Mystery Babylon, representing its intoxicating culture and the spirit of the times.
Obviously, not all of those meanings are in view here, but when we link the new wine with Jesus being "taken away" (verse 35), it coincides with the Passover cup, representing Christ's blood and the New Covenant. When we add the fact that the Holy Spirit could not be given until Jesus had gone away, then the new wine entails more than just forgiveness, but also suggests God's Spirit—His love, power, and sound-mindedness (II Timothy 1:7).
In the example, the new wine is expansive. The fermentation process produces a great deal of pressure. An old and brittle wineskin will not be able to withstand the increasing stress, and it will burst.
The wineskin is a type of vessel. Throughout Scripture, vessels are symbols for people. For Christians, there is an “old man” and a “new man.” The old man represents the life we had before conversion, and the new man, the new vessel, is the life that comes because of conversion. But if we take the expansive and dynamic new wine, and we attempt to put that into the old life, we can be sure that we will have a disaster on our hands.
Our old lives, our old ways, are entirely incompatible with the new wine.
The new wine requires change, expansion, and steady improvement, while in the old life, there was no real desire or ability to change.
Remember, the new wine is tied to the blood of Passover, the New Covenant, the receipt of God's Spirit, and the spiritual result that will be produced by those powerful factors. Trying to cram all that into a person who is unwilling to change will invariably result in his coming apart at the seams. The precious new wine is spilled on the ground and dreadfully wasted.
David C. Grabbe
Clothing, Wineskins, and Wine
Related Topics: New Man | New Wine | New Wine as God's Holy Spirit | Old Man
Luke 5:39
On the physical level, a finely aged wine is obviously preferable to a new wine. One year at the Feast of Tabernacles, I had the rare opportunity to sample a Bordeaux bottled in the late 1970s or early 80s. Suffice it to say that the wine's depth and complexity of flavors would put to profound shame anything bottled recently.
Curiously, though, in this parable, the new wine is the one that is to be preferred! This may seem incongruous at first, until we remember what these things represent.
The new wine of Christ's sacrifice, of the New Covenant, and of God's Spirit being poured out on us is infinitely more valuable than anything before conversion.
Whether the old wine represents physical abundance or the headiness of what Babylon entices us with constantly, nothing can be compared to the new wine—if we have God's Spirit.
However, because we are still human, and the old man still remains in us to some degree, at times the old wine seems better. The old wine seems more gratifying to the senses.
Before conversion, we certainly had no interest in this new wine because the old wine suited us just fine, even if it was making us miserable. Even after conversion, we sometimes reach for the old wine.
When we are under that influence, we do not find the new wine appealing because we are hooked on the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (I John 2:16).
It requires spiritual sobriety to recognize the true blessing of the new wine, but we cannot do that easily—if at all—when the old wine is on our palate. It is only in abstaining from the old wine that we can truly appreciate the uniqueness and superiority of the new.
David C. Grabbe
Clothing, Wineskins, and Wine
Hi Radius, I did watch a little more of the video and I see where he's coming from now. It's possible he is correct about the original Pentecost happening on the Feast of New Wine, I wasn't there so I wouldn't bet my salvation on it lol but he might be right. I did always find it a bit odd to have "New Wine" still available 10 months after the grape harvest, but I figured it might not be considered "old" until the new harvest begins in July/August. So yeah, maybe.....though I still feel like the text indicates that some type of Jewish pilgrimage festival was occurring at that time..... but who knows, could have been a political event instead.
Regarding meshing all that with the timing of the Rapture......that's something I stay away from. I don't think we're meant to know too exactly when that will happen. Even Jesus didn't know the exact timing, at least not while He was on Earth. And if I tried I could probably come up with a symbolic reason for Him to come back on ANY of the Jewish feast days (It will be during the feast of tabernacles, because Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us in His Father's house! And also because Peter referred to our earthly bodies as "tents"! Wait, nooooo....it will be during the festival of lights, because he said to keep out lamps full of oil! Oh wait I know.....it will be during Shavuot, the end of the harvest.......Jesus spoke of His followers as good grain to be harvested and taken to the storehouse, which is what you do at the end of the harvest!..........etc, etc......etc.
However, if you feel that type of study is beneficial for you then I understand, we are all different and drawn to different things and there is nothing wrong with that.
I find that sort of thing interesting but not necessarily helpful on a practical level, but that's how most farmers are lol 
Thank you Sister for at least watching some of the video. You are being a Berean and testing all Scripture unlike others in this thread who shut it down immediately. I urge you to watch the first video from 25:30 on to the end. Totally eye opening.Hi Radius, I did watch a little more of the video and I see where he's coming from now. It's possible he is correct about the original Pentecost happening on the Feast of New Wine, I wasn't there so I wouldn't bet my salvation on it lol but he might be right. I did always find it a bit odd to have "New Wine" still available 10 months after the grape harvest, but I figured it might not be considered "old" until the new harvest begins in July/August. So yeah, maybe.....though I still feel like the text indicates that some type of Jewish pilgrimage festival was occurring at that time..... but who knows, could have been a political event instead.
Regarding meshing all that with the timing of the Rapture......that's something I stay away from. I don't think we're meant to know too exactly when that will happen. Even Jesus didn't know the exact timing, at least not while He was on Earth. And if I tried I could probably come up with a symbolic reason for Him to come back on ANY of the Jewish feast days (It will be during the feast of tabernacles, because Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us in His Father's house! And also because Peter referred to our earthly bodies as "tents"! Wait, nooooo....it will be during the festival of lights, because he said to keep out lamps full of oil! Oh wait I know.....it will be during Shavuot, the end of the harvest.......Jesus spoke of His followers as good grain to be harvested and taken to the storehouse, which is what you do at the end of the harvest!..........etc, etc......etc.
However, if you feel that type of study is beneficial for you then I understand, we are all different and drawn to different things and there is nothing wrong with that.
and I believe the Bible when it says in the End more and more will be unsealed and new understanding from "running to and fro" and "knowledge will increase" (this is talking about running to and fro from the old testament to the new, and BIBLICAL knowledge will increase) will take place.
God bless you.
"At pentecost the new wine symbolizes the infilling of the Holy Spirit".
And although New Wine was not a pilgrimage Feast, it was still observed by Jews. The Septuagint (and Dead Sea Scrolls) alludes to this.
I think it is a somewhat ground breaking revelation that Pentecost may not be on Shavuot as tradition says it was (50 days after Passover) but rather at the New Wine.
Just as the priest was pouring out the new wine on the altar and consecrating it (that was done at the 3rd hour), God was pouring out an "intoxicating beverage" aka something that changes you from within, the Holy Spirit on the believers in the upper room (at the same time -- at the 3rd hour). This marks the beginning of the church age.
So wouldn't it be fitting to collect His Church 2 prophetic days later, or 2,000 years later at the rapture? This has huge implications and something we should joyfully look in to. God delights in our search for deeper understanding of His Word.
The Scripture reveals more than superficial precepts. Deep understanding comes from taking something we learned in Scriptures here and making connections with it over there.
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"
-Isaiah 28:9-13
God delights when we thirst and hunger to go deeper into His Word.
“It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the glory of kings to search out a matter.”
-Proverbs 25
You may not realize it, but I am a Berean. I've lived long enough to know that not every new idea that comes down the pike is important; and it doesn't take me long to understand what is important and what isn't. Maybe it's important to you and that's okay. I'm not trying to shut down anything; carry on and have a good discussion.
I don't know why you're still here then?
If you aren't going to watch the video (even at the 25:30 mark on) that explains it all perfectly, and if you can't understand why this is important to believers, then there's just not much more I can do for you.
I'm 43 years old, I'm not sure if you're older than I am, but I know I don't know everything in the Bible and it would be egotistical to suggest I do.
But to dismiss these finding as unimportant is pretty short sighted. New revelations are being discovered and unsealed and you're out to lunch somewhere.
I'm here to correct your misrepresentation of me (I assume you include me among those you say just want to shut you down). Carry on your discussion and leave me out of it and I'll leave you alone, promise.
You are already part of the discussion and one of the ones who reject new knowledge. You will be brought up if need be.
Ya know what, I've seen your ilk a thousand times in this forum. So if denigrating me for not accepting your "new knowledge" makes you feel better about yourself go right ahead, you have my blessing. No hard feelings.
It doesn't make me feel better. But I thought iron sharpening iron was what Christians should do. Now, are you iron?
waiting for a rebuttal for the points made in the video....i'll be long gone before that happens though, I already know it.
seeing that God gave 7 feasts in the Law and that He chose His crucifixion and resurrection to be on these days, it seems immediately unlikely that He would choose a day that comes from human tradition rather than one of His own appointed times to fulfill His own prophecy with the giving of His Spirit.
it also seems very unlikely that there would be a 2,000 year old tradition in the church - which was almost entirely Jewish in the beginning - that Acts 2 took place on Shavuot if it wasn't so.
it also seems very unlikely that there would be a 2,000 year old tradition in the church - which was almost entirely Jewish in the beginning - that Acts 2 took place on Shavuot if it wasn't so.
Doesn't it seem more weird that God would choose First Fruits to pour out His Spirit in the upper room? Makes no sense to me.
Shavuot is all about the first of the wheat. And given the description in Leviticus 23:15-21 it is all about presentations and offerings to God: "Wave two loaves...Wave the two lambs....burnt offering....drink offerings...sacrificial goat and two lambs as a sin and fellowship offering.... Sorry, it makes more sense that when Jesus ascended on that day, He ascended to the Father as the First Fruits offering fulfilling all these foreshadowed rituals.
Traditional Pentecost has absolutely nothing to do with First Fruits if you think about it, on the other hand, Jesus ascending to the Father 100% does.
First Fruits is the day Christ rose, 3 days after Pascha.
Shavuot is the giving of the Torah at Sinai, and has a number of parallels to Acts 2
i should say, it is the tradition of the Jews to remember the giving of the Torah on Shavuot, and Sinai & Acts 2 have many parallels.
They argue among themselves whether that's the purpose of Shavuot - but the best way to get three Jewish opinions is to ask any two Jews, as they say, ha!
But Acts 2:1 calls the day Pentecost, which means 50th, which is directly referring to the feast of weeks, 50 days (the day after 7 weeks) after the feast of firstfruits in the days of unleavened bread at the time of Passover.
I haven't listened to the man in the OP yet but my initial reaction is quite skeptical for the reasons I've outlined.
I finally had time to watch his video, from the 25-min mark (per your request), last night. I had a few question, which I'll get to...
(first off, let me say, I am not against people searching the scriptures for these things... I do the same).
Then I logged in here, to find you had written this:
[who's saying this?]
[the video-maker didn't say this... he said (I think) that Jesus ascended on Firstfruit (Jesus' Resurrection Day), and then 50 days later was "G399 - offered up [carried up]" per Lk24:51, not "ascended" (his point being: not 10 days prior to Shavuot); but he also makes the point (with which I mostly agree) that He "ascended" ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day)--I think he was saying this (I just disagree that He also took the Matt27:52-53 saints with Him that day, Lev23:10-14 / 1Cor15:20)]
[ditto what I put above; Maybe could you clarify this sentence of yours? I think I'm misunderstanding you here. My apologies.]
Perhaps I'm mis-reading you, but these ^ don't seem to jive with what the points were that he was making (unless I missed something).
[First... see my posts #4 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/pentecost-2024.215462/post-5316643 ... and #3, for my understanding of Shavuot (Pentecost)]
Let me start with my few questions about his video (from the 25-min mark onward), and maybe it'll clear up for me (meaning, a few of his points... and now yours in the quote above):
1) almost right away (within the first 10 or so minutes??) I couldn't understand his point when explaining the count to Shavout (something about the 50th falling on random days throughout a week??)... if you find the section I'm talking about, could you maybe help clarify his "thought" on that?;
2) he talks about how "wine" ( = "70") is the Hebrew word "yayin" H3196 (and that the word "secret" also equals "70"), but I find that when I look up the Hebrew word for "new wine," it's a completely different word--H8492 "tîrôš " (so, unless this also equals "70," it seems his point is not as tight here);
3) biblically, what he is calling "Shavuot" (and traditional Pentecost) always falls on a Sunday (the 50th day FROM Firstfruit [Jesus' Resurrection Day and when the John 20:17 ascension took place (the video-maker seems to agree here)]); not FROM Passover (the 14th, or 15th... whichever);
so that Firstfruit also always falls on a Sunday: "on the morrow after the sabbath" following Passover (that's "Firstfruit"=always on a Sunday), Lev23:10-12;
Shavuot is then counted "50 days" FROM THAT day (so always falls on a Sunday as well) "seven sabbaths shall be complete" and then it says, "Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days" (this should fall on a Sunday, when counted FROM Firstfruit--I'm not sure the video-maker does this);
4) later in the video, he seems to say (correct me if I'm mistaken) that both "Shavuot" and what he is calling the New Wine feast [/Pentecost, according to him] BOTH fall on a FULL MOON (I think he was saying)... but do they / would they?? I'm not seeing it!
Then it seems like he's saying that Shavuot fell on June 21[??], but it didn't... it fell on June 16 (Sun--see my two posts at LINK above), 50 days after "Firstfruit" (not 50 days after "Passover" [day 1 of]);
Then he says that [his idea of] the New Wine feast (he's calling Pentecost) would fall on (in his view) Aug 12/13/14 [around Av 8] (and says that's a full moon too?? but it isn't--the full moon is closer to Aug 19)... So I guess I either misunderstood him, or that his "count" is not as precise as it should be (which is often what I find when I view videos like these);
5) Acts 1:5 says, "not long after these days" (Grk phrasing)... I guess I'm not really seeing how "a COUNT OF FIFTY DAYS" that led up to this day Shavuot (the day He supposedly said this phrase in Acts 1) is supposed to refer to "another [count of] 50 days" (it doesn't seem to jive: "not long AFTER THESE DAYS" [the ones you just "counted"] supposedly EQUALING "another 50-day-count");
6) then there's the issues I see in your latest post not seeming to correspond with the points he actually made in his post (unless I'm either missing his points, or misunderstanding yours... lol)
That's what I've come up with so far, after watching his video.
(I might have had more, but I forget what they are at the moment, and this post is already long enough, lol)I found it: I'm referring to what he says between the 25:45-min mark and the 27:34-min mark.
I "get" that he's getting ready to show the four different views on "the count of 50 days [to Shavuot]" (and that he agrees more with the Essenes--that it's a regular 7th-day-sabbath that Lev23:11 refers to when saying "on the morrow after the sabbath");
I guess just the way he explains it between 25:45 and 27:34 isn't clear at all
[why, if you start the count "after the 7th-day-sabbath" (counting 7 weeks complete), wouldn't you END the count (of "50d") on a Sunday? I "get" the the Essenes may have used a different kind of calendar??]