No biggie. I know some of the longer posts are kinda tedious to wade through sometimes, and it's very easy to overlook the details.
We all do it, at times. No worries. = )
What does the Bible mean about the role of women?
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No biggie. I know some of the longer posts are kinda tedious to wade through sometimes, and it's very easy to overlook the details.
We all do it, at times. No worries. = )
The thing here is you will find different views and meanings and have to find put now what is right. I mean bible says clear, if you read it.I have only recently converted, and I’m unsure on what my role as a woman is. I really want to be a good Christian, and as I am now 18, I think I want to take a more active part in my faith. As a woman, am I allowed to teach and spread the faith? It appears that in 1 Timothy 2:12 this is condemned - “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet”. If I am not permitted to teach, what should I do to ensure I am an obedient believer of God? Is marriage and having a family the best option? Any replies would be greatly appreciated- I’m new to this
Peoples commentarys are peoples commentarys. Pray and ask for right understanding. Is my adwise.
My personal View and this of my wife? What Paul teaches is word of God I believe.
Thanks for setting the record straight. No offense was taken. I try to give at least one fact per sentence, so a long posting is a load and we all tend to miss things.
I have only recently converted, and I’m unsure on what my role as a woman is. I really want to be a good Christian, and as I am now 18, I think I want to take a more active part in my faith. As a woman, am I allowed to teach and spread the faith? It appears that in 1 Timothy 2:12 this is condemned - “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet”. If I am not permitted to teach, what should I do to ensure I am an obedient believer of God? Is marriage and having a family the best option? Any replies would be greatly appreciated- I’m new to this
Welcome.. My 2 cents.
When it comes to new creatures they are signified as neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile. (the loving commandment is that we know no person after the flesh, what the eyes see the temporal .We walk by faith (the unseen eternal)
God puts no inward differences between a man and a woman we are seen as one working as two. This is show in the hair covering for Woman and hair unconverted for men .If one part fails they both do.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Because of the time of reformation. Pagan foundation Kings in Israel . Things were turned upside down as in right side up.
Previously before the reformation Jewish woman were not allowed to participate in the ceremonies. Ceremonies shadows as sign to the world not a sign to themselves. I would call it (1 Corhtitains 11) the wedding invitation to all the nations .
There was a high wall that prevented them from participating.. And another wall that separated the Jewish women from the gentiles. Both walls along with the temple (an abomination of desolation fell). And in excitement of the women's liberation and gentile liberation some woman were sharing the gospel during the ceremonies. Something the should do at home with their spouse and not interfere with the demonstration .
Its not that woman cannot share the gospel in a hope that Christ would give them faith, as the one teaching Good Master not seen . In that way we are to call no person man or woman Good Teacher. One is in heaven .
We plant and water. He is the cause spiritual growth if any is given.
Sorry double post ignore the last. .
Welcome.. My 2 cents.
When it comes to new creatures they are signified as neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile. (the loving commandment is that we know no person after the flesh, what the eyes see the temporal .We walk by faith (the unseen eternal)
God puts no inward differences between a man and a woman we are seen as one working as two. This is show in the hair covering for Woman and hair unconverted for men .If one part fails they both do.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Because of the time of reformation. Pagan foundation Kings in Israel . Things were turned upside down as in right side up.
Previously before the reformation Jewish woman were not allowed to participate in the ceremonies. Ceremonies shadows as sign to the world not a sign to themselves. I would call it (1 Corhtitains 11) the wedding invitation to all the nations .
There was a high wall that prevented them from participating.. And another wall that separated the Jewish women from the gentiles. Both walls along with the temple (an abomination of desolation fell). And in excitement of the women's liberation and gentile liberation some woman were sharing the gospel during the ceremonies. Something the should do at home with their spouse and not interfere with the demonstration .
Its not that woman cannot share the gospel in a hope that Christ would give them faith, as the one teaching Good Master not seen . In that way we are to call no person man or woman Good Teacher. One is in heaven .
We plant and water. He is the cause spiritual of growth if any is given.
It takes two to create a humble spirit of virtue. The virtuous chaste virgin bride of Christ.
Welcome.. My 2 cents.
When it comes to new creatures they are signified as neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile. (the loving commandment is that we know no person after the flesh, what the eyes see the temporal .We walk by faith (the unseen eternal)
God puts no inward differences between a man and a woman we are seen as one working as two. This is show in the hair covering for Woman and hair unconverted for men .If one part fails they both do.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Because of the time of reformation. Pagan foundation Kings in Israel . Things were turned upside down as in right side up.
Previously before the reformation Jewish woman were not allowed to participate in the ceremonies. Ceremonies shadows as sign to the world not a sign to themselves. I would call it (1 Corhtitains 11) the wedding invitation to all the nations .
There was a high wall that prevented them from participating.. And another wall that separated the Jewish women from the gentiles. Both walls along with the temple (an abomination of desolation fell). And in excitement of the women's liberation and gentile liberation some woman were sharing the gospel during the ceremonies. Something the should do at home with their spouse and not interfere with the demonstration .
Its not that woman cannot share the gospel in a hope that Christ would give them faith, as the one teaching Good Master not seen . In that way we are to call no person man or woman Good Teacher. One is in heaven .
We plant and water. He is the cause spiritual of growth if any is given.
It takes two to create a humble spirit of virtue. The virtuous chaste virgin bride of Christ.
You touch a very important point. In such a discussion temperatures tend to rise because our every day life is bomarded with the world's philosophy, and Christians want to reconcile it with the Bible because it seems to make sense. But if we examine the world's philosophy closely, it doesn't make sense. The shout of the world is "equality in all things", but they don't follow it themselves. The whole thrust of men who would impose their philosophy on everyone, are by their own claim, elitist. One of the most prevailing worldly organizations, a "club" that nearly all men in high positions belong, is the Freemasons. One of their greatest Grand Masters was Albert Pike (1809-1891). Of the common people he writes in his very first sentences of "Morals and Dogma ... ", quote;
"FORCE, unregulated or ill-regulated, is not only wasted in the void, like that of gunpowder burned in the open air, and steam unconfined by science; but, striking in the dark, and its blows meeting only the air, they recoil and bruise itself. It is destruction and ruin. It is the volcano, the earthquake, the cyclone;--not growth and progress. It is Polyphemus blinded, striking at random, and falling headlong among the sharp rocks by the impetus of his own blows.
The blind Force of the people is a Force that must be economized, and also managed, as the blind Force of steam, lifting the ponderous iron arms and turning the large wheels, is made to bore and rifle the cannon and to weave the most delicate lace. It must be regulated by Intellect. Intellect is to the people and the people's Force, what the slender needle of the compass is to the ship--its soul, always counselling the huge mass of wood and iron, and always pointing to the north. To attack the citadels built up on all sides against the human race by superstitions, despotisms, and prejudices,"
Now, I am aware that not all Masons think this, but this comes from the highest level, and is mandatory reading for 30th degree upwards.
Be that as it may, we have to ask ourselves; "Does the Bible teach equality?" The answer again, as I pointed out in my posting # 15, is; In matters of grace and justice we are all treated equally by God. He has no favorites. But in SERVICE God makes DIFFERENCES! In 1st Corinthians 12:4-11 God clearly gives gifts as He likes. One is the Apostle of renown, and another is the sweeper of the meeting hall. In Matthew 25:15 it reads; "And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; ... ." One gets FIVE while another gets TWO talents. And because the number of Talents are "according to personal ability", it means that by BIRTH some men have more ability than others. The human body, a picture of Christ's Body - the Church, has dozens of differing organs. Can the massive thigh muscle gloat over the kidney? Well ... in strength, yes. But the body can live without both thighs but not without the kidneys. So much for the boasting of the thigh muscle!
And these same men who conceitedly teach "equality", but who secretly despise the common man as inferior, don't follow their own philosophy when they make an automobile. They build it with an engine, a gearbox and a differential so that it FUNCTIONS. Is an engine the same as a gearbox? Does the differential demand to be put in front of the engine? NO! For the smooth functioning and service to man, each keeps its place. And so it is in life, and so it is in the Church. God has a DESIGN, and in this design there is no equality. It is designed to FUNCTION. So, to one is given the gift of Apostle, to another interpretation of tongues. One has the power to set forth doctrine for all, and the other is to stay silent if the total of THREE utterances has been reached in that meeting (1st Cor.14:27). One is a male and God needs an Elder who exercises authority to keep the order of the meeting. Another is a female and God needs a prophetess (Act.21:9). Where is the "equality" of the world in God's sovereignty? Why, it doesn't exist.
And if God has ordained, per His wonderful design, that a male functions this way and a female functions that way, would he give Talents NOT according to ability? Will we put petrol in a gearbox to make it "equal" to an engine? Will the designer of a Ferrari drill holes into its differential and insert spark plugs because the world cries "equality"? And so, will God give a divine Talent to a Christian who He has not DESIGNED to keep order in His Church?
Each one of us must settle this in their own mind BECAUSE it was THIS THING that caused Satan to fall. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be LIKE the most High" (Isaiah 14:14).
There is no scriptural basis for this. 1) There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus. 2) Those who quote Paul forget that he was instructing people that lived in an entirely different culture than we live in. 3) Would you think logically that a woman is less capable than a man to convey God's word?
If you have a desire to preach and/or teach go ahead and do so. Don't let legalists prevent you from doing God's will.
Since they are only 4 minutes apart, you could have deleted the first one within the 5 minute edit window
I suppose there is scripture enough for this, otherwise nobody would fight against it.
It seems that I interprete the scripture different like you. And btw it has nothing to do with cabable ore not. This is not the point.
It has to with obidience and worth about Gods will which he has expressed in his word.
Go ahead with what you believe, the mayority and the timespirit is with you.
What I frequently hate in these kind of discussions is when men self-deprecate. I'm just not sold on the idea that the evil men have been oppressing the innocent women for thousands of years. The Bible says what it says. The Old Testament has the books of Ruth and Esther--not the books of Boaz and Mordecai. And Boaz and Mordecai were good men. Deborah was a judge.
An oversimplification I think people frequently make is that people think linearly. That is to say, 1 equals 1, 2 equals 2. And if 1 does not equal 2, then that means one number must be greater than the other. When really we ought to think in terms of an apple does not equal an orange. A birch tree does not equal an elm tree. A duck does not equal a flamingo. Does that mean an apple is greater than an orange? No--the idea of being "greater" is completely out of context of the discussion. Somehow, we've got this idea that if an apple and an orange are unequal, then we must be regarding one as higher in importance. They are neither equal nor unequal in importance. Importance is not even part of the discussion.
Also, God's gifting and calling is on an individual basis. There is a two-edged sword there: on the one hand, we are not seeing clearly if we have to look through the lens of gender every time. But on the other, just because giftings are on an individual basis does not mean that, once we look at the entire body and their giftings as a whole, that the giftings will not break down by gender in the end.
This applies to women preaching and teaching or assuming authority within church meetings.
However, that does not stop you from sharing the Gospel or teaching (1) unsaved women, (2) immature Christian women, and (3) children. Indeed mature Christian women are commanded to teach immature Christian women how to be godly wives and mothers. Being an effective wife and mother is a major undertaking, and extremely important.
Since you say you have recently been converted, you should seek out a godly Christian woman to be your discipler, before you even venture to teach others.
At the same time you should regularly attend all your church services to be taught by evangelists, pastors, and teachers. This does not preclude your own personal efforts to study the Word of God and separate the wheat from the chaff.
S
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I am curious. Did you notice that you are inserting the phrase within church meetings and that it is not in the text that Paul wrote? Nor is it in the context of the verses surrounding it?
I Timothy doesn't, but I Corinthians 14, NLT:
34 Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.
That is definitely within the context of church meetings. Where else do you think it would apply? And just to settle the matter, lets go to 1 Corinthians 14 -- WHICH IS IN THE CONTEXT OF CHURCH MEETINGS -- and examine verses 34 and 35, which have the words "church" and "churches".
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the Law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
This ties in with 1 Timothy 2:11-15:
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
It should be noted in this context that elders (pastors) and deacons were required to be qualified men only. And it was the responsibility of elders (plural, not just one pastor) to preach, teach, and rule (or oversee) the affairs of New Testament churches.
In case anyone mistakenly thinks that Paul was expressing his personal opinion, he said "as also saith the Law" meaning the Old Testament, which is the Word of God.
S
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And yet in that context he was specifically talking about asking questions. He said that those who speak in tongues should be silent, he said that those who prophesy should be silent, then he said that the women should be silent.
Now was he talking to only women tongue talkers? So he told men to be silent in the church also.
He clearly told both men and women to be silent in the church.
But of course we understand that is not fair to not include context. If there is not an interpreter then the tongue speaker should be silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.
If the one with a prophesy understands that there is someone else who also has a prophesy he should be silent and let the other speak also.
And the women who are asking these questions out of order should be silent and ask their husbands at home.
This is not the same as saying a woman cannot teach or preach in church. The gender of the speaker at the time that women were asking their questions was not mentioned though we assume it would be a male, it could be a female speaking and still the women asking questions would be out of order and still the admonition to be silent and ask their questions at home would apply.
All I am saying here is that we should stick to the text and not insert things that are not said. We have to always ask the question, If Paul were here right now and I could ask him "Paul, what did you mean by this. Were you saying that women cannot ask questions in a disruptive manner, which I can understand would be awkward in any meeting. Or were you saying that you taught that Women were not allowed to preach or teach in churches?" and what would Paul say to us? Well we can't do that (yet) so we have to be very careful analyzing what he wrote and do our best to figure it out from the text, context, word meaning of original language, and over course all the other scriptures we can find.
The scriptures do not contradict. If it was God's intention that women, and handmaidens be allowed to prophesy (Acts 2) in the assembly and we know for certain they were included in the giving prophesy because we have other scriptures to support that. (acts 2 and Philips daughters) then a literal admonition to be silent in the assembly without qualification could not possibly be what Paul meant. Therefore we conclude that he was talking about asking questions out of order and would not be banning them from giving a prophesy one at at time in order, two or three at the most, that all may be edified.
And I am also convinced they were involved in speaking in tongues with an interpreter and giving interpretations in tongues but I cannot argue it from a scriptural example and neither can anyone say they were not.
The admonition: 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Is directed to all the saints.
S
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Guest
I feel like that morning that I go to work. Doing my hunting and gathering for my family. Yes, it is satisfying when I get home from another successful day in the workplace. It's a jungle out there, that's for sure.
S
Scribe
Guest
Acts 21 gives us a snapshot of assembling with saints who prophesied women, and men. The Holy Ghost used both as it was his intention to do so and still is.
On the day of Pentecost it was declared in a powerful manner that the women were to be part of this Holy Ghost empowerment to prophesy.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: