What does "the coming of the Lord" in the NT refer to?

[kenallen]

This may take more than one post.
God had a conversation with Ezekiel about this. You can read of it in the 13th chapter

The Reproof of False Prophets
1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; 3Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! 4O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. 5Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD. 6They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. 7Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD. 9And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. 10Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: 11Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. 12Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? 13Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. 14So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 15Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; 16To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.
False Women Prophets
17Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them, 18And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? 19And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. 21Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 22Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 23Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
I would like to take you through Verses 17-23

 

[kenallen]

Ezekiel 13
Verse 17. Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
First off let me say God has always used woman in His service.

Judges 4:1-0
And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead. 2And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles. 3And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.
4And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. 5And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? 7And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. 8And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. 9And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. 10And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.

Back to Ezekiel Who is speaking here? Is it Ezekiel? No God is speaking to Ezekiel and he is writing it down. Set thy face against: Speak against the daughters of thy people: The woman of thy people that prophesy out of their own hearts: Out of their own hearts and mind. And prophesy against them. God is making it very clear to Ezekiel He is not happy with them. What are they prophesying (which means teaching, preaching etc.)

Verse 18.And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

What is God saying here? Picture this He has big puffy pillows from His shoulder to His wrist on both arms. Then they take a heave kerchief wrap it around His hands and in between His fingers making His arms and hands useless. Why are they doing this so they can hunt souls! They want to hunt and kill the souls of Gods people all the while telling everyone WE ARE HERE TO PREACH GODS WORD!

Verse 19.And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die,
and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Will you lie to My people about Me for money, to slay the souls that I say should not die; and then you are going to offer hope to the souls that should not live, with your lies and false teaching, your lies.

 

[kenallen]

Ezekiel 13.
Just what is this big lie that they are teaching. Remember this is given as prophecy for the future, for us.

Verse 20. Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Verse 21. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

God is against your false doctrine all of it. The rapture, The fly away doctrine. He is going to ripe the pillows of His arms, free His bound hands and fingers. I am going to release them from your lies, even all those people that you teach you don't have to worry about the tribulation, you don't have to worry about learning about the desolation of abomination spoken by the prophet Danial, you don't have to learn the parable of the fig tree, you don't have to know about Revelation you are going to be gone, I am going to fly you away. IT IS ONE BIG LIE!
Verses 22&23. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 23Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Do you really want to be preaching, teaching, putting forth something that God says He is against? You need to stop, thank, study, before you start putting out false doctrine. It can be the rapture, baptism is needed for salvation, We are not under the law any more . . .
Ken A

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How about this: you will not find a single rapture verse that mentions a trip to heaven after being glorified.

This nonsense has already been debunked a hundred times.

Oh, just stop it already.

No one has provided a verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

So stop this trolling. However, if you do not wish to go to Heaven, you already have a problem.

What nonsense. I'm not trolling but pointing out the FACT that NO VERSE shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

If you can refute me, this is your chance.

 

[justpassinthrough]

FreeGrace2 said:

The "lawless one" is revealed half way through the Tribulation and will rule earth for 3.5 years. Rev 13
He is also known as the "antichrist".

I agree. Amen!


The only thing I see that may be a little different is the great tribulation is 3.5 years, and begins in the middle of the week, Daniel’s 70th week which is a 7 year period.


It’s seems we agree on all the important things, which is frightening.




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Consider the following about how the scriptures speak of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ. if both were taken at the same time it would have said " Dead and the Living in Christ shall be caught up together". And in 2 Thess it speaks of the assembly of the living to meet the Lord.

So, what I am saying is there is a span between Dead and Living in Christ such as the dead are raised on Ascension Day and the Living on Pentecost.

It does say they will be caught up together.

The Resurrection comes first in which the dead in Christ will rise first.

• And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17





JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

The rapture is an act of God for a purpose ........to gather the saved from all ages.......also to set the 7 year tribulation in motion.

One does not have to interfere or denounce the other.

The rapture comes after the resurrection. The resurrection occurs at His coming.

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

The Resurrection and Rapture are one event, in which the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together to be gathered unto the Lord in the air high above the earth in the clouds, safely in His presence and to remain with Him from now on.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Once the Lord has all His people together with Him safely above the earth, He will pour out the wrath of God upon the wicked who remain on earth, in which none of them will escape His wrath.



But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4





JPT

 

[Evmur]

This passage is probably the most used to teach about a pretribulational rapture.

1 These 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In this passage we have 3 mentions of Jesus "coming back" to earth.

But, does it refer to a pretribulational rapture, where Jesus glorifies all believers and then takes them to heaven?

No, it doesn't. In the OT, there are only two mentions of the Messiah's advents "comings". The first one was as a baby and the suffering servant. The second advent will be as King of kings and Lord of lords, to reign the nations with a rod of iron.

Some will argue that Jesus came back to earth to meet Paul on the road to Damascus, and other such sightings, etc.

However, since the OT prophesied about just TWO advents, and we KNOW that Jesus WILL return at the Second Advent, 1 Thess 4:14-17 describes His Second Advent, and not a pretribulational visit to earth.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Here, Paul states that there will be TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse very clearly says that the single resurrection of the saved (those who belong to Him) will occur "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, prophesied in the OT.

When you place 1 Thess: 4 side by side with 2 Thess: 2. 2. they are clearly different events.

1. Cor: 15. does teach 3 resurrection first Christ then Christ's at His coming then comes the end each then marks a signifant passage of time. "Then" Christ's at His coming is already 2, 000 years since our Lord was raised.

"Then" comes the end when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, this also comes after a significant passage of time. and this is why ,
"after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

This reign therefore comes between the resurrection of those who are His and the end when He will deliver the kingdom to the Father.

But some say there is to be no reign, no kingdom to deliver to the Father.

Other's say that this reign. this kingdom, is now [amillennials] that all His enemies are already put under His feet. That view is not according to scripture which states we do not yet see all things put under His feet, but we see Jesus. We also see that when Christ appears next the world is in rebellion.

Amillenialism was ALWAYS wrong according to scripture and is now clear to everybody's view to be a blown doctrine.

 

[kenallen]

This nonsense has already been debunked a hundred times. So stop this trolling. However, if you do not wish to go to Heaven, you already have a problem.

Nehemiah6 If all of Gods people are taken away who will be here to take a stand against the false one.
Luke 21.
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.
If you differ with someone don't call them names. Jesus told the deciples
Matthew 18
21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. That is 490 times a day.
Take them to the scripture and show them where they are wrong; on the other hand you must be open to listen to what they have to say. You might find that you may have some common ground and can come to an understanding of just what the scripture says.
2 Peter 1:20
New International Version
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.

New Living Translation
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding,

English Standard Version
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.

Berean Study Bible
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation.

Berean Literal Bible
knowing this first, that any prophecy of Scripture is not of its own interpretation.

King James Bible
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

New King James Version
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

New American Standard Bible
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture becomes a matter of someone’s own interpretation,
Verse 21
New International Version
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.

English Standard Version
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Study Bible
For no such prophecy was ever brought forth by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
For no prophecy at any time was brought by the will of man, but men spoke from God, being carried by the Holy Spirit.

King James Bible
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

New King James Version
for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When you place 1 Thess: 4 side by side with 2 Thess: 2. 2. they are clearly different events.

I disagree. Not every passage includes every single thing in a single event.

FACTS:
1. there is one single resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:14, 1 Cor 15:23
2. at that single resurrection, ALL saved will be resurrected (this includes all living at that time) 1 Cor 15:23
3. Rev 20:5 specifically calls this single resurrection of all believers the "first resurrection".
4. the first resurrection of all saved will be followed by the single resurrection of all unsaved by 1,000 years, which is the GWT judgment.

1. Cor: 15. does teach 3 resurrection first Christ then Christ's at His coming then comes the end each then marks a signifant passage of time. "Then" Christ's at His coming is already 2, 000 years since our Lord was raised.

EVERY verse that mentions Christ's "coming" is a reference to the Second Advent which will occur at the end of the Tribulaton.

This is FACT because in the OT there are only TWO prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. First coming was as a baby to become the suffering servant. The Messiah's second coming will be as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

This is not arguable.

So 1 Cor 15:23 points out the fact that Jesus Christ was the first human to receive a glorified body, as noted in Acts 26:23.
Following that resurrection, ALL the rest of believers will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

"Then" comes the end when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, this also comes after a significant passage of time. and this is why , "after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

This is about the Millennial Kingdom, which will begin when Jesus comes back the SECOND time. And the resurrection of all believers happens.

This reign therefore comes between the resurrection of those who are His and the end when He will deliver the kingdom to the Father.

Millennial Reign.

But some say there is to be no reign, no kingdom to deliver to the Father.

Don't care what "they" say. I know what the Bible says.

 

[Evmur]

I disagree. Not every passage includes every single thing in a single event.

FACTS:
1. there is one single resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:14, 1 Cor 15:23
2. at that single resurrection, ALL saved will be resurrected (this includes all living at that time) 1 Cor 15:23
3. Rev 20:5 specifically calls this single resurrection of all believers the "first resurrection".
4. the first resurrection of all saved will be followed by the single resurrection of all unsaved by 1,000 years, which is the GWT judgment.


EVERY verse that mentions Christ's "coming" is a reference to the Second Advent which will occur at the end of the Tribulaton.

This is FACT because in the OT there are only TWO prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. First coming was as a baby to become the suffering servant. The Messiah's second coming will be as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

This is not arguable.

So 1 Cor 15:23 points out the fact that Jesus Christ was the first human to receive a glorified body, as noted in Acts 26:23.
Following that resurrection, ALL the rest of believers will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.


This is about the Millennial Kingdom, which will begin when Jesus comes back the SECOND time. And the resurrection of all believers happens.


Millennial Reign.


Don't care what "they" say. I know what the Bible says.

We are in more agreement than you suppose.

But you have a fuzzy grey area, that is what goes on between the resurrection of the just and Jesus comes to reign as undisputed Lord of lords and King of kings. You emphasise that the resurrection will be of the just only, i.e the rapture. What then is everyone else to be slain?

I don't think so.

1. Cor: 15 says He is to destroy all powers and authorities and rule and put all His enemies under His feet. We see in 1st and 2nd Thess that He will destroy Antichrist, we might rightly suppose He will destroy the armies that come up to Jerusalem with him. The OT prophecies are that God will fight against the nations that come up against Jerusalem.

Then we have the Isaiah scenario of nations no longer lifting up sword against each other, they will study war no more. The epoch of peace and prosperity will begin. The people will flow to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. In other words the gates will be thrown open for the rest of mankind to come in.

Satan will be bound during that 1, 000 years.

After the 1, 000 years Satan will be loosed ... then comes the prophecies concerning the end of the world with fir and destruction followed by the last resurrection and judgement.

Amillenialism compounds these 2 comings into one event.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are in more agreement than you suppose.

GREAT!

But you have a fuzzy grey area, that is what goes on between the resurrection of the just and Jesus comes to reign as undisputed Lord of lords and King of kings.

I don't think so. Maybe you have a fuzzy grey area about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Where is the verse?

You emphasise that the resurrection will be of the just only, i.e the rapture. What then is everyone else to be slain?

I don't understand your question. Are you asking what about the unbelievers?

I don't think so.

Your choice.

1. Cor: 15 says He is to destroy all powers and authorities and rule and put all His enemies under His feet. We see in 1st and 2nd Thess that He will destroy Antichrist, we might rightly suppose He will destroy the armies that come up to Jerusalem with him.

Covered in Rev 19, in clear detail.

The OT prophecies are that God will fight against the nations that come up against Jerusalem.

He will.

Then we have the Isaiah scenario of nations no longer lifting up sword against each other, they will study war no more. The epoch of peace and prosperity will begin.

Do you know why? Jesus will "rule the nations with a rod of iron". iow, He won't let them.

The people will flow to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. In other words the gates will be thrown open for the rest of mankind to come in.

Satan will be bound during that 1, 000 years.

Yes.

After the 1, 000 years Satan will be loosed ... then comes the prophecies concerning the end of the world with fir and destruction followed by the last resurrection and judgement.

Correct.

Amillenialism compounds these 2 comings into one event.

Why do you keep mentioning the millennialists? They are very far off the rails.

 

[Evmur]

GREAT!


I don't think so. Maybe you have a fuzzy grey area about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Where is the verse?


I don't understand your question. Are you asking what about the unbelievers?


Your choice.


Covered in Rev 19, in clear detail.


He will.


Do you know why? Jesus will "rule the nations with a rod of iron". iow, He won't let them.


Yes.


Correct.


Why do you keep mentioning the millennialists? They are very far off the rails.

if you believe in the 1,000 year reign you are a millennialist

millennium = 1, 000 years.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said:
Amillenialism compounds these 2 comings into one event.

I asked why you keep mentioning the millennialists.

if you believe in the 1,000 year reign you are a millennialist

millennium = 1, 000 years.

Yes, but I'm NOT an amillennialist.

I believe in a literal 1,000 year reign because of the clear description in Rev 20.

What are you?

 

[Evmur]

You said:
Amillenialism compounds these 2 comings into one event.

I asked why you keep mentioning the millennialists.

Yes, but I'm NOT an amillennialist.

I believe in a literal 1,000 year reign because of the clear description in Rev 20.

What are you?

I believe in the 1, 000 years.

you still have that grey fuzzy area as to what happens to everybody else, you deflected by asking "do you mean unbelievers?" if I answer yes that will settle their fate in your eyes, kill the lot of them. But there will be no unbelievers once the Lord returns, but not necessarily with the faith that saves. You are overlooking the people who will flow to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.

Regarding the rapture we go to meet the Lord in the clouds. Jesus promised that "I go away to prepare a place for you and I will come again to take you with Me to be where I am" He was going to heaven, that's where He has prepared a place for us and that is where we shall go.

It is the Jews who will reign with Christ on earth, having been converted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe in the 1, 000 years.

OK, great!

you still have that grey fuzzy area as to what happens to everybody else, you deflected by asking "do you mean unbelievers?" if I answer yes that will settle their fate in your eyes, kill the lot of them. But there will be no unbelievers once the Lord returns, but not necessarily with the faith that saves. You are overlooking the people who will flow to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.

OK, here is my panoramic view, from the Bible.

7 year tribulation. Jesus returns at the Second Advent with all the dead saints from heaven, and glorifes all believers, dead and living. Jesus ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His Millennial kingdom. I believe that the Bema will be at this time also.

I don't believe that all unbelievers will be killed upon Jesus' return. I believe only the armies will be killed, per Rev 19:19-21. So that leaves the rest of the population of unbelievers who survived the tribulation. So the Millennium will be populated with mortal unbelievers, and all believers will be glorified and serve/reign with Christ.

When Satan is loosed at the end of the Millennium, he deceives all the nations once again, and attacks Jerusalem. Fire comes down from heaven and kills EVERYONE. Then, all unbelievers will be resurrected for their judgment, the GWT judgment. Then all of them will be cast into the lake of fire.

Do you know why the lake of fire is called the "second death"?

Regarding the rapture we go to meet the Lord in the clouds. Jesus promised that "I go away to prepare a place for you and I will come again to take you with Me to be where I am" He was going to heaven, that's where He has prepared a place for us and that is where we shall go.

Since the single resurrection occurs at the Second Advent, why would any believer to go heaven? All the action will be on earth, either serving and reigning with Christ.

It is the Jews who will reign with Christ on earth, having been converted.

Only Jews? Where would I find that in the Bible?

What is clear in the Bible is that all believers will be glorified at the single resurrection event, which is at the Second Advent.

Why would all Gentile believers go to heaven and all Jewish believers stay on earth.

And your final sentence above is a real grey area. How can the Jews "reign with Christ on earth" if Jesus takes all the Gentiles up to heaven?

Does Jesus take them up, and then leave them in heaven while He returns to reign with all the Jewish believers?

 

[Evmur]

OK, great!


OK, here is my panoramic view, from the Bible.

7 year tribulation. Jesus returns at the Second Advent with all the dead saints from heaven, and glorifes all believers, dead and living. Jesus ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His Millennial kingdom. I believe that the Bema will be at this time also.

I don't believe that all unbelievers will be killed upon Jesus' return. I believe only the armies will be killed, per Rev 19:19-21. So that leaves the rest of the population of unbelievers who survived the tribulation. So the Millennium will be populated with mortal unbelievers, and all believers will be glorified and serve/reign with Christ.

When Satan is loosed at the end of the Millennium, he deceives all the nations once again, and attacks Jerusalem. Fire comes down from heaven and kills EVERYONE. Then, all unbelievers will be resurrected for their judgment, the GWT judgment. Then all of them will be cast into the lake of fire.

Do you know why the lake of fire is called the "second death"?


Since the single resurrection occurs at the Second Advent, why would any believer to go heaven? All the action will be on earth, either serving and reigning with Christ.


Only Jews? Where would I find that in the Bible?

What is clear in the Bible is that all believers will be glorified at the single resurrection event, which is at the Second Advent.

Why would all Gentile believers go to heaven and all Jewish believers stay on earth.

And your final sentence above is a real grey area. How can the Jews "reign with Christ on earth" if Jesus takes all the Gentiles up to heaven?

Does Jesus take them up, and then leave them in heaven while He returns to reign with all the Jewish believers?

This could turn out to be a very long conversation.

Paul calls the Mill "the fulness of time" he says that God's will for the fulness of time is to unite all things in Christ Jesus, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth. So heaven and earth during the Mill will be united.

Why the Jews? because the promise is unto them. We are not promised that we should inherit the earth and the ends of the earth but the Jews are. Our inheritance is heaven. Not just Gentiles but Jews/Gentiles the church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This could turn out to be a very long conversation.

Paul calls the Mill "the fulness of time" he says that God's will for the fulness of time is to unite all things in Christ Jesus, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth. So heaven and earth during the Mill will be united.

It seems more probably that the "fulness of time" would be Christ reigning as King over the world literally.

Why the Jews? because the promise is unto them.

The promise of the Millennium is for all believers, glorified and serving/reigning with Christ.

We are not promised that we should inherit the earth and the ends of the earth but the Jews are.

And all believers are promised to be resurrected and be with Christ forever. I see no problem.

Our inheritance is heaven. Not just Gentiles but Jews/Gentiles the church.

This doesn't really answer my question. It seems you believe that Gentile believers go to heaven and remain during the Millennium when the Jewish believers stay on earth and reign with Christ.

In Rev 20, we read about tribulation martyrs who will be resurrected and reign with Christ. It doesn't say "Jewish" martyrs.

All believers will be resurrected/glorified "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23. It is clear that all believers will reign with Christ.

2 Tim 2:12 isn't for the Jews. It's for believers. All of them.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This passage is probably the most used to teach about a pretribulational rapture.

1 These 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In this passage we have 3 mentions of Jesus "coming back" to earth.

But, does it refer to a pretribulational rapture, where Jesus glorifies all believers and then takes them to heaven?

No, it doesn't. In the OT, there are only two mentions of the Messiah's advents "comings". The first one was as a baby and the suffering servant. The second advent will be as King of kings and Lord of lords, to reign the nations with a rod of iron.

Some will argue that Jesus came back to earth to meet Paul on the road to Damascus, and other such sightings, etc.

However, since the OT prophesied about just TWO advents, and we KNOW that Jesus WILL return at the Second Advent, 1 Thess 4:14-17 describes His Second Advent, and not a pretribulational visit to earth.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Here, Paul states that there will be TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse very clearly says that the single resurrection of the saved (those who belong to Him) will occur "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, prophesied in the OT.

The biggest misunderstanding is not the "coming of the Lord", but the SOON coming of the Lord. That adjective doesn't mean imminence as most people assume, that he could come at "any moment"; no, God has an ironclad schedule, He doesn't act capriciously on "any moment". Rather, "soon" means swiftness of action - like lightning flashes from the east to the west. It describes the MANNER rather than the timing of His coming.

 

[GaryA]

The biggest misunderstanding is not the "coming of the Lord", but the SOON coming of the Lord. That adjective doesn't mean imminence as most people assume, that he could come at "any moment"; no, God has an ironclad schedule, He doesn't act capriciously on "any moment". Rather, "soon" means swiftness of action - like lightning flashes from the east to the west. It describes the MANNER rather than the timing of His coming.

Please remind/show me what verses of scripture apply 'soon' in the way that you describe.