What does the Law REALLY say?
- Thread starter KohenMatt
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Are you saying Paul believed only the OT and did not believe the NT, most of which he wrote?
Here's the thing (and no, I've not been married more than once - using the Biblical example from Rom. 7 below):
I'm not going back to my old husband (law), who had exacting standards, was always right, and never lifted a finger to help me, to learn how to love my new husband.
I learn how to please my new Husband (Christ) by spending time with Him, and learning about my new identity in Him.
To go back to my old husband to learn how to be a good wife to my new husband would be unthinkable - and it would be adultery.
Romans 7:1-6 and Spiritual Adultery
We, even as believers, make the choice about how we will walk out our lives in Christ: will you live relying on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil or will you rely on the Tree of Life?
Where does each one lead?
-JGIG
Actually I wasn't going there at all. I actually wasn't even thinking about a previous husband. Regardless.....
Like you said, you spend time with your husband to love him, please him, learn about Him and you. You actually do things to show him that. Would you still be married if you chose not to do that? Yes. But you wouldn't be very happy.
That's why I do things to spend time with my Husband. I do things to learn about Him and myself, to be a good "wife". And this is all done after He's chosen me to be His "wife". I don't do these things to earn the right to be His. I do them to show Him I love Him and that I am His. And no matter how much I do those things, He couldn't possibly love me anymore than He already does.
Same thing.
KohenMatt, here's one for you:
What happens to the wife of the Old Husband the Law who does not do as he requires?
Does the New Husband Christ send the wife back to the old husband to teach her how to be a good wife?
What does Christ have to say about how the Law pleases the Father?
God no longer desires that we relate to Him on the basis of Law - He actually never did - but the Law was necessary for two main purposes:
And this result:
-JGIG
What happens to the wife of the Old Husband the Law who does not do as he requires?
Does the New Husband Christ send the wife back to the old husband to teach her how to be a good wife?
What does Christ have to say about how the Law pleases the Father?
5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (from Heb. 10)
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (from Heb. 10)
God no longer desires that we relate to Him on the basis of Law - He actually never did - but the Law was necessary for two main purposes:
- To guard the bloodline of both Israel and its individual tribes so that Messiah would be recognized when He came, and
- To identify and increase transgressions to show man his self-righteousness and sin and consequent need for that Messiah
And this result:
- Now that Messiah has come, the Law still points to our need for Him, but we are no longer bound (married) to it, nor is it appropriate to go back to the Law to learn how to be pleasing to God when He was not pleased by it in the first place.
-JGIG
Except you go back to the 'Old husband' to learn how to be a good 'wife' to the 'New Husband'.
That's NOT the same thing.
-JGIG
What does the Law really say
Old Covenant to Israel
Exodus 20:8-10 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
shall thou labour
5647. abad
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to work, serve
NASB Translation
become slaves (1), been slaves (1), bondage (2), burdened (2), cultivate (7), cultivated (2), cultivates (1), do (6), do the work (1), enslaved (3), given (1), holding in bondage (1), imposed (1), keep (2), labor (3), laborers* (2), make servant (1), make slaves (2), manufacturers (1), observe (1), perform (9), performed (2), plowed (1), rendered (1), serve (141), served (52), serves (2), serving (5), slave (1), slaves (1), subject (1), till (1), tiller (1), tiller* (1), tills (2), use as slaves (1), used (1), uses services (1), work (7), worked (2), workers (2), working (1), worship (7), worshipers (6).
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication, to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc. -- X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour(-ing man, bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve(-ing, self), (be, become) servant(-s), do (use) service, till(-er), transgress (from margin), (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper,
So exactly how do you keep this commandment without separating the rest of the instructions ???
Now since God has establish His new Covenent, what did he command to all belivers in the new covenant.
New Covenant
1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
This is a new covenant yes or no ??? please explain.
Old Covenant to Israel
Exodus 20:8-10 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
shall thou labour
5647. abad
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to work, serve
NASB Translation
become slaves (1), been slaves (1), bondage (2), burdened (2), cultivate (7), cultivated (2), cultivates (1), do (6), do the work (1), enslaved (3), given (1), holding in bondage (1), imposed (1), keep (2), labor (3), laborers* (2), make servant (1), make slaves (2), manufacturers (1), observe (1), perform (9), performed (2), plowed (1), rendered (1), serve (141), served (52), serves (2), serving (5), slave (1), slaves (1), subject (1), till (1), tiller (1), tiller* (1), tills (2), use as slaves (1), used (1), uses services (1), work (7), worked (2), workers (2), working (1), worship (7), worshipers (6).
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication, to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc. -- X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour(-ing man, bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve(-ing, self), (be, become) servant(-s), do (use) service, till(-er), transgress (from margin), (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper,
So exactly how do you keep this commandment without separating the rest of the instructions ???
Now since God has establish His new Covenent, what did he command to all belivers in the new covenant.
New Covenant
1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
This is a new covenant yes or no ??? please explain.
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C
chubbena
Guest
Are you reading me saying that Paul believed only the OT and did not believe the NT? You know you may simply say what you want to. I don't like cha cha.
K
Kerry
Guest
The law say's that you better except Jesus or burn, because you can't keep the law or God messed up.
C
chubbena
Guest
The new covenant was promised in Jeremiah 31 in which He would put His law in His people's heart. Of course some think that He took out what He spoke through the same prophet in Jeremiah 17:19-27
K
Kerry
Guest
Are you setting the OT against the NT in Paul?Are you reading me saying that Paul believed only the OT and did not believe the NT? You know you may simply say what you want to. I don't like cha cha.Elin said:
Is anyone suggesting we just tear up the Old Testament, oh no! Just the parts you have edited? It is there for the edification of all.
To paraphrase our Lord, Jesus Christ, if you knew Moses and the Prophets, you would already know Jesus Christ for they write or Him. You cannot pick and choose Holy Scripture if it is truly inspired by God, and it is.
To paraphrase our Lord, Jesus Christ, if you knew Moses and the Prophets, you would already know Jesus Christ for they write or Him. You cannot pick and choose Holy Scripture if it is truly inspired by God, and it is.
Well, it appears that you believe that you can only relate to God in 1 way or the other. You either can only have relationship with Him through the Law, or you can only have relationship with Him through grace and the law of liberty with no balance in between.
I didn't bring up the husbands because that talks about salvation and justification. I could care less about that because my salvation is only found in 1 thing.
My stance is that because of my salvation, I can relate to God on a daily basis in a number of ways, and the Law is one way of doing that. If I'm told to love my neighbor and I see his dog lost on the road, I'm going to return it to him. That instruction isn't in the NT, is it? So by your apparent reasoning that I can't go back to the Law to know what to do, I can't return the dog because that instruction is in the OT. You may say, "Well the Holy Spirit tells me what to do, not the Law." Well, the Holy Spirit is part of the God who gave the Law, and the Holy Spirit directs me to Law for practical living all the time. If I'm doing it on my own, it's just vain and empty rituals and practices.
Doing the things the things found in the Law out of response to God's salvation doesn't affect my salvation at all. If I begin to trust in it, that's a different story. The fact of the matter is that Jesus gave the Law on Mt. Sinai and said to do it forever. Jesus told His followers in Matthew 5 and to do the Law forever. Heaven and earth hasn't passed away yet, so I will continue to do things found in the Law, along side Jesus' 2 commandments, because they are 1 and the same.
So if you choose to believe that we can't do anything found in the Law simply because its in the Law, then we disagree and that's pretty much the end of our conversation.
I just hope I don't lose my dog in your neighborhood.
C
chubbena
Guest
Only when one thinks Paul was not in agreement with what's written in the "OT". Despite the many times he said he was, in his defendant's speech in Acts and in his letters, and the many times he quoted from the "OT", many choose to believe he was inspired to write letters to supersede what's written in "OT".
Like I said, you may simply say what you want to. There's no need to build a straw man by putting words in others mouth.
C
chubbena
Guest
THE SABBATICAL YEAR
134 Exodus 23:11 - On ownerless produce of the Sabbatical year (shemittah) .
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.
135 Leviticus 25:4 - On resting the land on the Sabbatical year.
But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.
136 Leviticus 25:10 - On sanctifying the Jubilee (50th) year.
And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
137 Leviticus 25:9 - Blow Shofar on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) in the Jubilee and slaves freed.
Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
138 Leviticus 25:25 - Reversion of the land to ancestral owners in Jubilee year.
If thy brother be waxen poor, and hath sold away some of his possession, and if any of his kin come to redeem it, then shall he redeem that which his brother sold.
139 Leviticus 25:24 - On the redemption of a house within a year of the sale.
And in all the land of your possession ye shall grant a redemption for the land.
140 Leviticus 25:8 - Counting and announcing the years till the Jubilee year.
And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.
141 Deuteronomy 15:3 - All debts are annulled in the Sabbatical year, but...
Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;
142 Deuteronomy 15:3 - ...one may exact a debt owed by a foreigner.
Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;
134 Exodus 23:11 - On ownerless produce of the Sabbatical year (shemittah) .
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.
135 Leviticus 25:4 - On resting the land on the Sabbatical year.
But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.
136 Leviticus 25:10 - On sanctifying the Jubilee (50th) year.
And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
137 Leviticus 25:9 - Blow Shofar on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) in the Jubilee and slaves freed.
Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
138 Leviticus 25:25 - Reversion of the land to ancestral owners in Jubilee year.
If thy brother be waxen poor, and hath sold away some of his possession, and if any of his kin come to redeem it, then shall he redeem that which his brother sold.
139 Leviticus 25:24 - On the redemption of a house within a year of the sale.
And in all the land of your possession ye shall grant a redemption for the land.
140 Leviticus 25:8 - Counting and announcing the years till the Jubilee year.
And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.
141 Deuteronomy 15:3 - All debts are annulled in the Sabbatical year, but...
Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;
142 Deuteronomy 15:3 - ...one may exact a debt owed by a foreigner.
Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;
Hi KohenMatt, I haven't read all the posts in this thread... Have you talked about the cleanliness laws yet? What to do about body discharges and so on?