What does the Law REALLY say?

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Elin said:
And I'll cut to the chase.

There is nothing wrong with the new covenant law of God (1Co 9:21),
which is the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39) without a written code of regulations,
because in the new covenant the indwelling Holy Spirit gives one to know in his heart (Jer 31:31)
what is loving and what is not loving, fulfilling all the Law and the Prophets (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10).
Click to expand...

The Law of Christ is the summation of the Ten Commandments and it is composed of the Ten Commandments...

What you keep claiming is that some new Law replaced the Law of God. You blatantly ignore direct statements of Christ Himself...

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

And the Apostles direct statements under the inspiration of God...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

From the beginning.
 
john832 said:
The Law of Christ is the summation of the Ten Commandments and it is composed of the Ten Commandments...

What you keep claiming is that some new Law replaced the Law of God.
You blatantly ignore direct statements of Christ Himself
Click to expand...
Nope. . .you set the Scriptures against themselves,
ipso facto proof that you do not understand them correctly,
because the word of God does not contradict itself.

Christ was born, lived and died under the Law,
as did those to whom he preached,
and his teaching reflects that.

You are ignoring the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2),
almost 10 years after his ascension (2Co 12:3-9), through the NT writers,

where we learn that the new covenant law of God (1Co 9:21),
is now the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39) without a written code of regulations,
because in the new covenant the indwelling Holy Spirit gives one to know in his heart (Jer 31:31)
what is loving and what is not loving, fulfilling all the Law and the Prophets (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10).

I harmonize the Scriptures in the law of Christ, presenting no contradictions among them,
whereas you set the Scriptures against themselves in the law of Moses vs. the law of Christ.

So who understands them correctly?
 
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Elin said:
Nope. . .you asset the Scriptures against themselves,
ipso facto proof that you do not understand them correctly, because the word of God does not contradict itself.

Christ was born, lived and died under the Law,
as did those to whom he preached,
and his teaching reflects that.

You are ignoring the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2),
almost 10 years after his ascension (2Co 12:3-9), through the NT writers,

where we learn that the new covenant law of God (1Co 9:21),
is now the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39) without a written code of regulations,
because in the new covenant the indwelling Holy Spirit gives one to know in his heart (Jer 31:31)
what is loving and what is not loving, fulfilling all the Law and the Prophets (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10).

I harmonize the Scriptures in the law of Christ, presenting no contradictions among them,
whereas you set the Scriptures against themselves in the law of Moses vs. the law of Christ.

So who understands them correctly?
Click to expand...

What you do is pick a few scriptures and ignore the rest then when someone puts all of the scripture in play, accuse them of setting scripture against scripture.

That is an interesting concept, if one could truly set scripture against scripture, then the scriptures contradict and are fallible and thereby useless. This is what you continually assert.
 
john832 said:
Elin said:
Nope. . .you asset the Scriptures against themselves,
ipso facto proof that you do not understand them correctly, because the word of God does not contradict itself.

Christ was born, lived and died under the Law,
as did those to whom he preached,
and his teaching reflects that.

You are ignoring the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2),
almost 10 years after his ascension (2Co 12:3-9), through the NT writers,

where we learn that the new covenant law of God (1Co 9:21),
is now the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39) without a written code of regulations,
because in the new covenant the indwelling Holy Spirit gives one to know in his heart (Jer 31:31)
what is loving and what is not loving, fulfilling all the Law and the Prophets (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10).

I harmonize the Scriptures in the law of Christ, presenting no contradictions among them, whereas
you set the Scriptures against themselves in the law of Moses vs. the law of Christ.

So who understands them correctly?
Click to expand...
What you do is pick a few scriptures and ignore the rest then when someone puts all of the scripture in play,
accuse them of setting scripture against scripture.

That is an interesting concept, if one could truly set scripture against scripture, then the scriptures contradict and are fallible and thereby useless.
This is what you continually assert.
Click to expand...
Based on the practice of it presented here.
 
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KohenMatt said:
This is the last of the 613 commands in the Torah/Law.

For those of you who took the time to read through all of them over the last couple of months or so (if anyone did), my hope is that you can see how the individual laws are not as burdensome as some would think. If anyone were to do any of the things commanded here apart from it being done as part of the Law, we would commend the person for doing them. However, when you make mention that these commands are part of the Law and that it was a part of your relationship with God, those people are criticized.

I think the Body of Messiah would be a whole lot better off if people made an effort to do these commands that God gave to His people.
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well, how burdensome it can be, I think, has a lot to do with how much effort a person puts into keeping it... if a person is zealous about it, it still wouldn't have to be seen as burdensome, but it could definitely mean some really big changes to how they live!
 
Dan_473 said:
well, how burdensome it can be, I think, has a lot to do with how much effort a person puts into keeping it... if a person is zealous about it, it still wouldn't have to be seen as burdensome, but it could definitely mean some really big changes to how they live!
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Explain to me the burden of obeying.
 
Dan_473 said:
well, how burdensome it can be, I think, has a lot to do with how much effort a person puts into keeping it... if a person is zealous about it, it still wouldn't have to be seen as burdensome, but it could definitely mean some really big changes to how they live!
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And I think being a disciple of Jesus requires that we make some really big changes to our live, and ones that we should be zealous and committed to doing.
 
john832 said:
Explain to me the burden of obeying.
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well, I was discussing lev15:22 with a believer who wanted to keep the law... I talked about how, unless one lived in an observant community, that could be very difficult... it seemed the person neither wanted to move to such a group, nor put too much effort into keeping it...
 
Dan_473 said:
well, I was discussing lev15:22 with a believer who wanted to keep the law... I talked about how, unless one lived in an observant community, that could be very difficult... it seemed the person neither wanted to move to such a group, nor put too much effort into keeping it...
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I suppose it's a matter of perspective of how much effort is "enough."
You could say the same for any command in the Bible, OT or NT. How much effort do we put into not looking at things that cause us to sin? Enough to gouge out our eye?
 
KohenMatt said:
And I think being a disciple of Jesus requires that we make some really big changes to our live, and ones that we should be zealous and committed to doing.
Click to expand...
OK, now I'm confused... back when we were talking about lev15, my impression was that you only wanted to put moderate effort into keeping that rule...?
 
KohenMatt said:
I suppose it's a matter of perspective of how much effort is "enough."
You could say the same for any command in the Bible, OT or NT. How much effort do we put into not looking at things that cause us to sin? Enough to gouge out our eye?
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if I honestly thought that following God meant keeping a set of rules, then I don't think any amount of effort is too much... something relatively easy, like taking an early shower or moving to live with others who are zealous for the law... to me, that would seem doable...
 
Elin said:
It doesn't require Lev 15:22.
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How about not touching an ebola victim? Are the quarantine Laws really a burden? Interestingly enough, there was one population group that was relatively untouched by the black death, the Jews of Europe. Do you suppose there is any correlation between that and the Laws of quarantine and cleanliness they practiced?

Hint:

Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
 
Dan_473 said:
if I honestly thought that following God meant keeping a set of rules, then I don't think any amount of effort is too much... something relatively easy, like taking an early shower or moving to live with others who are zealous for the law... to me, that would seem doable...
Click to expand...

Why would you think that following God does not involve rules? The entire Bible is about rules.
 
Dan_473 said:
OK, now I'm confused... back when we were talking about lev15, my impression was that you only wanted to put moderate effort into keeping that rule...?
Click to expand...

I only put as much effort into as I reasonably can. I'm not going to ask every single woman I come close if they're having their period. I'm not going to ask every woman I sit next to when they menstruated last. I'm not going to move away from the people God has called me to minister to just so I don't run the risk of sitting next to someone who has been bleeding.
 
Dan_473 said:
if I honestly thought that following God meant keeping a set of rules, then I don't think any amount of effort is too much... something relatively easy, like taking an early shower or moving to live with others who are zealous for the law... to me, that would seem doable...
Click to expand...

Following God doesn't mean keeping a set of rules strictly for the purpose of keeping those rules. Following God means following His Spirit. The Levitical priests and Jesus came in contact with the unclean on a daily basis, yet they were never told to move away. Israel was given the means to be cleansed from any impurity. We are offered those same instructions through the Law as well as Jesus' example.
 
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Just for fun let's read Lev 15:22

Lev 15:22 And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:23 And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even.

It doesn't say cast into the Lake of Fire, it says the person who does this washes himself and will be unclean until evening. So you don't go around eating finger food or shaking hands or coming in contact with others until you bathe and a period of time passes.

It is a cleanliness Law that if practiced would help prevent disease and sickness.

Now this society will tell you that is not necessary. Remember this, these same people think nothing of dumping sewage in their drinking water. Where does the effluent from sewer plants go?

What does God say?

Deu 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:

Composting human waste would be a better solution than flushing it into the local river so that the next town or city downstream can use it for drinking and cooking.
 
john832 said:
Just for fun let's read Lev 15:22

Lev 15:22 And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:23 And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even.

It is a cleanliness Law that if practiced would help prevent disease and sickness.
Click to expand...
Whatever she touched was unclean.

And whatever untouched what she touched was unclean.

Picture of the contagion of sin, not disease.

It is a ceremonial purification law to show that spirituallly sin must be purified.
 
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john832 said:
How about not touching an ebola victim? Are the quarantine Laws really a burden? Interestingly enough, there was one population group that was relatively untouched by the black death, the Jews of Europe. Do you suppose there is any correlation between that and the Laws of quarantine and cleanliness they practiced?

Hint:

Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
Click to expand...
That is human hindsight based in your culture.

The ceremonial cleanliness laws were about the spiritual purification from sin which was to come in Christ.
 
Elin said:
The ceremonial cleanliness laws were about the spiritual purification from sin to come in Christ.
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Yes they do picture sin but are also sound health practices. God didn't give these Laws for people to practice without a connection to daily living. They are just plain sound practice or do you believe that dumping sewage into our drinking water is a healthful practice?
 
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