What happens to people who never here about Christ?
- Thread starter Devin02
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Here's why their baby died...
After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth on the ground. The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. On the seventh day the child died.[2 Samuel 12:15-18b]
Ppl want to take Ezekiel 18:20 and make it say what it does NOT say. When ppl see the 'free will offering' in the Law, they're like "See!! See!! Ppl do have a free will!!" Its a sad time our theology is drudged through.
J
jaybird88
Guest
IMO its more deep and complex that the son being punished for the fathers sin which EZ seems to be pretty clear on. possible because David was king and an example to the people and the Most High held him to a higher standard. but i really dont know.
J
jaybird88
Guest
Here's why their baby died...
After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth on the ground. The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. On the seventh day the child died.[2 Samuel 12:15-18b]
Ppl want to take Ezekiel 18:20 and make it say what it does NOT say. When ppl see the 'free will offering' in the Law, they're like "See!! See!! Ppl do have a free will!!" Its a sad time our theology is drudged through.
but EZ does say a sons not held responsible for the sins of the Father.
I just gave you the passage and why the baby died. He died because of David's sin.
J
jaybird88
Guest
That's what the millennium is for.. The saved will reign with Christ for a 1000 years, while the dead in Christ (those who never had an opportunity to hear the gospel), will be taught (Revelation 20:4-8). Everyone will have an opportunity to hear the gospel...
You are comparing apples to dump trucks, my Brother.
When Adam was in the Garden, he acted as our representative. When he fell, we being in him, also fell.
Those in Ezekiel 18 were not acting as representatives of their children. That's why you can not compare the fall of Adam with the rebellion that happened in Ezekiel 18.
Two entirely different contexts.
Do you believe a deity that never appeared to or was mentioned by over 99% of humanity would hold sway over those who never had an opportunity to learn of it?
Kinda reminds me of the anecdote:
Eskimo, "So you mean to tell me that if I never heard of your Jesus, I would not be going to hell?"
Priest, "Yes, that is true."
Eskimo, "Well then, why did you tell me?!"
J
jaybird88
Guest
im not comparing anything, im simply accepting a passage for what it says. that entire passage of EZ is devoted to this very thing. its not directed to a specific group of men, its says "a" father and "a" son" not a specific father, son or group, however the Samuel passage is directed at a specific person. the judgment of David has to do with David using the ammorites to kill bathshebas husband, apparently the ammorites were aware and paying attention to the Lord of Israel and if the Lord was going to stand by and do nothing or hold David accountable. He judged David, not for sins in general but judged a specific person for a specific act.
I like them all, in fact, I love them. I just do not like the grotesque mangling of them as being posited on here.
Adam acted as our representative. The father and son verses are not saying the father acted as a representative(on behalf of) of the son.
To take the fall and compare them to Ezekiel 18:20, Deuteronomy 24:16 and/or Jeremiah 31:29 is faulty hermeneutics.
J
jaybird88
Guest
those passages teach the same thing, i think the bible is pretty clear we are held accountable for our own sins. common sense teaches the same thing. if i just found out my dad cheated on my mother im not going to go out and beat the tar out of my own son, i love my son and my Father in heaven loves me more than that.
i still dont get the death of davids son, its clearly a judgment against David but what did this son ever do?
Again, those fathers were not acting as a representative of their sons. Adam acted as all of humanity's representative. Your hermeneutics are awful.
I agree we are held accountable for our own sins. I never averred anything differently.
But Adam caused us to be born an enemy of God. We are born sinners. We sin because we are sinners. We do not become sinners after we sin.
Augustine and Calvin would be proud of this comment. Pelagius and Jacob Arminius, not so much.
Basically, it comes down to being 'morally responsible' for your actions. IF there is no moral or intellectual responsibility or guilt associated with being born, why attach guilt or culpability to it? Did you choose to be born? No.
Why then accept responsibility or blame over something for which we have no control?
J
jaybird88
Guest
i dont think the Father forces us against our will to sin. if that was the case then the devil would have no need to tempt us.
i agree we are connected to the fall of Adam, his fall affects us. i just dont see it the same way. i think there was a man named Adam but also Adam represents an age of mankind, that age ended with Adam and our age began.
I respect your position. What I fail to understand is how you get to the conclusion: "Adam acted as our representative."
Are you taking Romans 5:12 & First Corinthians 15:22 as your proof-texts? If so, I get your drift. What we should also consider is personal accountability for our actions.
For example, Jesus said, "there are many righteous..." (Matthew 13:17; 23:35; 25:37; Revelation 22:11)
Correct. Those verses quoted above (Deut 24:16; Ezekiel 18; Jeremiah 31:29) all speak of individual accountability and responsibility. They don't address a collective representative like Paul puts forth.
How is it "faulty hermeneutics?" Please explain. Thanks.
You're taking two accounts, the fall of Adam and comparing that to Ezekiel 18:20, Deuteronomy 24:16 & Jeremiah 31:29.
You're melding together things that don't say the same thing.
Pelagius? He was considered a heretic of the worst kind, as he averred babies are born tabula rasa[I/].
All you have to do is watch infants. You do not have to teach them to lie, steal, hit, &c. That's already built into them via the fall of Adam. However, you do have to teach them to not steal, lie, hit other ppl, &c. Babies are not born sinless at all. As Dr. Voddie Baucham said, "They're vipers with diapers."